Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Ryan - remember the art discussion? You are now reconsidering aspect ratio to save the quantity of extras????

Remember - Vision. What do you need it to look like. In all my years I have never even considered making artistic decisions on variables like this? Sure - budget is important, and I've swapped locations that will be cheaper, I've swapped cameras and even crew for budget reasons, but people in the shot are simply dressing. I really don't understand you. You've made amazingly heavy water out of the aspect ratio, and now don't care, and are picking it because you have to find extra people? Could you not reblock them, or do other artistic things to make your chosen size fit?

We've talked this to death then you throw it all away on a whim.

I'm really sorry Ryan, but this just makes me cross that we wasted so much time and energy trying to help, and you throw this in at the last minute and make all the discussion pointless.

The title of the thread is 'How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?' - the answer appears to be, he bases it on the budget he has to fill the image with people? We could have done that 1st post, if you said I want to go wide, but can't afford to have that many extras.

You let this topic get HOW big, before throwing this in? You're just messing us about.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

You’re describing the natural course of all his threads. For my sanity, I find it best to only discuss the subject for its own sake and not concern myself with giving him advice or solving his problems. You’ll inevitably end up angry and frustrated for wasting your time.

He should have a disclaimer at the beginning of all his threads. “Warning all advice and answers for the questions I’m about to ask will be discarded due to budgetary restrictions.”

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I was throwing away in advice! I considered all the advice, but I was told that on here before, that in the end, I need to learn to make my own decisions for my own reasons.

So if that's true, than I felt needing more actors and set design in the frame might take up more budget, and thought that was a deciding factor in which one to choose. Was I wrong to have my own reasons to make that decision?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

It's your decision, in the past the economics would've driven the decision, so you probably wouldn't have asked the question.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Well I guess I just had to take all the advice and weigh it all and think about it. Both aspect ratios are in good in different ways, which makes it difficult to make a decision. So I guess I just thought I should make it out of budget then, if both are good in different ways. But I could go back and rethink it and make a decision, that is all about the art, and not budget based, then if that's better.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

For me it's a simple matter of letting the technology dictate what I use. I have cheap cameras that all put out 16:9, and the vast majority of displays anything I produce will be seen on are compatible with 16:9, so I work within that format.

The limitations of technology have always constrained and influenced artistic decisions, often in ways that inspired the people producing the art. Since I'm an "audio first" thinker it's the history of recording that serves as my model. For example, Sgt. Pepper was recorded on a pair of Studer 4-track decks. Although 8-track machines were available, the record company wouldn't pay for them, so George Martin had to make do with what he had, which he did brilliantly with a bit of planning. When he filled up all the tracks on one machine he had to mix down to one or two tracks of the other. Was that masterpiece created in spite of or because of the limitations? Hard to say.

So perhaps use your budget limitation as inspiration. Maybe you'll make the next El Mariachi.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay. It would be awesome of course to make the next El Mariachi.

Well I never thought of cameras not having a 2.39:1 ratio being a problem as you can just load some free firmware onto a lot of cameras that will give you that aspect ratio.

The budget dilemma for me, it means I need more extras in the shots, as well as more set design, since more of a room is shown 2.39.

Do you think that maybe I should put art before budget first though? For example, I showed the script I want to make to a DP, who may be interested, and he said he really would like to use a drone for some shots, but I don't know if I want to spend the money and permits and insurance for a drone, but he thinks it will really add to the art of the movie if we do. That is just another current example of art vs. budget.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I've lost the plot altogether - Ryan. What exactly are you? you now have a DP who wants to do drone shots, you were a boom op, then a cameraman, then a producer, now I have no idea/

You seem to want to be everything, then nothing. If you have a DP then that person would be thinking much the same as you - so can we sort out what you have on your business card? Ryan Wray - XXXXXXXX

What is the XXXXXX? (This week) - it's confusing the heck out of me, and as soon as I think I've got you sorted, as in you are the director, you morph into something else.

Please stop asking what we think of every variable - we don't know, because you never give a full explanation to anything - ever!

IS it your money funding all these people? If it is, why to you allow other people to tell you what to do?

how are you choosing your team, or is there already a team and you are the person expected to fix everything.

We're willing to help, but we now need to understand you, what you do, where the funds come from, what happens to the finished product and where do you go from here.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh sorry, I'll try to explain more.

I want to direct and produce a feature film to send into festivals and hopefully if distribution happens, that's great.

I've done boom op work for other people on their productions. This DP is a connection I made through doing such work, and he asked if I had any projects I want to do, and I told him about this one and he was interested.

I don't have to be own my DP of course, but still have to make a lot of decisions as director, such as aspect ratio or types of shots of course. I haven't chosen a team yet because before going to a team, I want to get all the storyboarding done first, so I have it ready to present to them. It would be my money, plus the possible money from any investors I can attract later, but want to get the storyboards done first as well as other things, before presenting it to them, or to a team.

Does this help explain more?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I think it's important to point out here that most any discussion thread on DVi -- especially one like this, which goes on for pages and pages -- will usually, if properly conducted, transcend well beyond the original poster's purpose or intentions. And that's a good thing.

To state it another way, a discussion thread of this size typically goes above and beyond whatever the Original Poster (OP) was getting at. The result is that it positively affects other readers who come upon it later. It doesn't matter if the OP has taken our advice or not. Perhaps somebody else will. Other people can learn a lot from reading through it. The topic is broad enough and general enough and is discussed well enough that there's plenty of potential for it to be useful for other people. I've said before that I want this site to appeal to all of the lurkers -- all of those folks who read but choose not to post. They will definitely benefit from all of this. Meanwhile, the OP can take it or leave it. His questions were answered in good faith and that's all that matters.

So yes, please, by all means discuss the subject for its own sake. Other eyes will gain from it besides (or instead of) the OP.

Thanks all,

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Actually I think you're both Ryan Wray and Ryan Elder, and I'm not quite sure how to handle that from an administrative perspective, so I've given you the custom title "also known as Ryan Elder." Because as far as I can tell, you're going by both names. Or perhaps you were Ryan Elder and recently you became Ryan Wray, which is all well and good and fine of course, but I just wanted to avoid any confusion about who you are.

For example, on your YouTube page your name is Ryan Elder. And yet, in your most recently uploaded YouTube video, you credit yourself as Ryan Wray. And that's just one example. It's really not that big of a deal, but the members of this particular forum generally prefer to know who they're talking to. And the thing is, you're currently posting on another forum right now as Ryan Elder. In fact you've been posting on a wide variety of forum sites as far back as 2012, which is also okay, but it's important to understand that DVi isn't like other forum sites.

Ultimately it's really no big deal as it's clear to me that you're not trying to impersonate someone else or anything -- I mean, see https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9866858/ -- that's you, right? However, for the sake of my own sanity, I've got you down as Ryan Elder below your username.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh I just with Ryan Wray cause I thought it sounded better for a credited name, for projects I've worked on that's all.

I could have posted my real name on here, if I should have, sorry.

If going off on tangents about movie making and going into other areas than what I originally posted is bad, I didn't mean to have bad form, I just get all anxious about the whole process, in a good positive way I think, and just want to have all my bases covered.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

That is in fact the policy here.

Fixed. Thanks!

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Well I reread over the advice, and quite a few responses say to shoot in 16:9 or 1.85:1 because the odds of getting a theatrical release are low, but other indie films shoot in 2.39, even though they don't know what release they will get, don't they? Did the filmmakers of an indie film like Moonlight for example, shot in 2.39, know they were going to get a theatrical release, before making the movie?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I think you should make your own decision based on your own artistic sense and within your own practical constraints.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Well it's tough without knowing more. Like for example, why were movies like Terminator 2, and Manhunter both shot in 2.39:1, even though those movies mostly took place in tight locations?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I suspect it's because they are movies and they use the scope frame for the full big screen blockbuster effect.



Same with "The Great Escape", even though much of the film takes place in a POW camp. However, In this case, scope makes the camp even claustrophobic and gives a greater sense of freedom after the escape.


A good decision should be based on how it serves the story, not on if it's an interior or exterior film.




Compare "The Hunt for Red October" with "Das Boot", but remember the latter was made as a TV mini seriesl, with the feature film being a cut down version. However, the aspect ratio serves the story in both cases or at least framed to serve the story.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I'm aware that the video links are not embedding properly.

It might take a day or two to get the situation resolved but I'm working on it... it is a priority.

For now, you can click through the video links to go straight to YouTube (in a new browser tab).

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Okay thanks. I watched all the videos. When comparing The Hunt for Red October to Das Boot, it seems that either ratio will work for my story, but in different ways for some of the shots, where as other shots, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Why did James Cameron choose to shoot T2 in 2.39, but the first Terminator in 1.85?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

The main reason was probably the budget (it's pretty much a first feature apart from directing part of Piranha II ) and making the stop motion easier. Terminator 2 was shot on Super 35 (as was "The Abyss). Aliens was shot in 1:85. I gather Cameron doesn't like shooting anamorphic..

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay, but Cameron shot anamorphic for T2 and Titanic so I thought he would have preferred it therefore.

But did you have to shoot anamorphic back in the 80s to get 2.39? Couldn't you shoot with spherical lenses and just add black bars to the film some how, or crop it off?

But I guess that's another thing all together. One movie that is shot in 2.39:1 is Manhunter, but how come The Silence of the Lambs, also a Hannibal Lecter movie, was shot in 1.85 in comparison? What advantage is there with 1.85 over 2.39 for that type of psychological thriller?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I've only once had a chance to look through a viewfinder on a camera with an anamorphic lens on and I'm not sure I could ever get used to it. The point being that 100% of the frame size is utilised. Black bars waste an awful lot of the available image. Anamorphic just squeezes more information into a space - not the same as bunging a wide lens on and letterboxing!

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Yes, unless you wanted to shoot Techniscope, which is 2 perf pull down 35mm camera negative, which can be grainy; the Lab then created a squeezed internegative for producing projection prints. Quite a few films were shot with this, including the Italian dollar films with Clint Eastwood and "American Graffiti". It fell out of use during the 1980s, however, usage increased since around 2000, when a new generation of cameras came available, combined with digital intermediates etc. Cameron used it to shoot the Titanic wreck in the feature film.

The choice of aspect ratio is a creative/financial one, which is up to the director and DP. You can ask why all you want, but you won't get a catch all answer.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay, is there a big difference between letterboxing to 2.39 compared to shooting in anamorphic and squeezing down the image? I thought 2.39, was to create a certain, feeling. Whether or not you use anamorphic compared to letterboxing, most viewers are not going to notice, are they? I mean I know there is a big difference between the two as someone into filmmaking, but is there a big difference to most viewers?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

There is a difference, the most noticeable ones with anamorphic lenses are the oval bright highlights instead of round ones with background lights and the horizontal flares. In the days of shooting film, the grain would be more noticeable on non anamorphic films especially in the cinema, some shots in the dollar trilogy are pretty grainy.

Some 16:9 TV dramas are being shot with scope anamorphic lenses because of the look. They just use a 16:9 frame within the 2.39 one.

Viewers can vary, if they're into watching films they'll probably be more be aware than those who are indifferent.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Do they notice their to is showing so pictures sometimes? Anamorphic lenses were always so expensive, and choices of real photographic physical formats were all down to budget, and the distribution chain. No point having a new movie in a format most projectors can't handle. The shape of the image is just a historic selection of ones that were popular. Nowadays you can shoot in your own aspect ratio and do whatever you want. Somebody makes a choice as to what they think will look best, that's all.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Yep for sure, I can tell the difference with anamorphic lenses, it's just when I ask friends' opinions they say they don't even notice unless I point it out to them. So I don't think it would be worth getting anamorphic compared to just letterboxing.

But as for choosing whatever aspect ratio I want, I was told not to do this as if you want your movie to be successful, and hopefully find distribution, that a lot of distributors prefer just the two standard aspect ratios, if that is true.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

It doesn't matter if they're aware or not, it's like an artist using different types of brushes and their palette knife for a particular effect in their painting, most viewers won't be aware of what is being used in its creation.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

But Ryan - what is the point? You limit yourself to using a specific focal length lens and while some are cheapish - many are crazy money, and all to just fill the sensor corner to corner. if you buy a sensor with more pixels, could you not shoot full frame and the crop, still ending up with more actual definitions and used pixel count. I don't see the attraction. you never have enough money, so why limit yourself so much at the capture stage. If you're thinking about hiring real cinema quality cameras, then I can see the point, and the extra crew costs these things require, the extra bits to handle focus and the additional complications of very shallow DoF.

I like to look at people like Philip Bloom - who uses the right tool for every job. not getting bogged down in the technology. He gets excellent images from virtually every single camera system and sensor size - because he he very good at what he does. watch his youtube videos and then try to work backwards, and you'll see that kit is NOT the driving factor behind his images.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay, I've seen some of Phillip Bloom's videos. If kit is not the driving force, then shooting 2.39 without anamorphic lenses, shouldn't be a problem then, right?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

No one said it was a problem.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Oh okay. I talked to another filmmaker and he said to shoot in 16:9 maybe cause his film was turned down by Netflix distribution because of the 2.39:1. But I found this odd, because movies like Bird Box are Netflix originals and that was 2.39.

On the other hand, another filmmaker I talked to says to shoot in 2.39 cause it shows investors that you are serious as a filmmaker. Does it though?

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Shooting 2.39 doesn't really prove anything, since so many lower budget cameras can shoot it.

Decisions won't be made on the basis of the aspect ratio, investors etc don't really care about the aspect ratio, these filmmakers are deluding themselves.

They'll want to know who's in the film and the pitch, if the film doesn't exist and want production funding they'll want to read the script. If you've already made it, a trailer plus short scenes and other promotional material may get them wanting more. It's the actors and other aspects that will be important.

If you want to impress with gear shoot on a RED or an Arri Alexa otherwise keep quiet about ut.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Chances are if any of these filmmakers are in their early-mid 20s (as I assume you are), almost everything they are telling you is wrong. Talk to someone who has actually had some success. Hell, I can point to someone in Houston who might talk to you...she’s made several movies that have gotten distribution and aired on Hallmark or something, has some other stuff going on too. People who haven’t gotten anywhere giving each other advice is like the blind leading the blind. You likely won’t be able to grow until you break out of the closed bubble of student/amateur filmmaking... talk to a pro, get on a real set, etc.

I would think writing/acting/production quality and related issues would be far more likely reasons your friend’s film was turned down than the aspect ratio (unless that’s what they told him/her specifically).

You might look into a subscription to American cinematographer or buying a huge collection of that magazine off ebay. The entire purpose of that magazine is detailed looks into how many movies and tv shows are made and why the filmmakers made those choices. Literally all the stuff youve been asking for six or nine months (minus the sound stuff, but that’s what Jay Rose’s production sound book is for).

Also I would advise making quite a few short films to test all these things youve made threads about before tackling a feature. I don’t think you’re ready yet and if you do it anyway you’ll have something disappointing and undistributable that you will have wasted an enormous amount of time on, defeating the entire purpose of making it.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Okay thanks. The filmmaker I talked to, said Netflix turned down the movie specifically cause of the aspect ratio, which I found strange, since some of their original movies seemed to have been shot in the same ratio. He is in this thirties, or so he looks like.

The other filmmaker I am not sure how old he was who said 2.39, shows that you are serious, I am not sure how old he is cause I talked to him online. I think meant it shows you are serious cinematography or aspirations for theaters wise.

I made some short films so far, mostly shot in 16:9 but the last one was short in 2.39. I like both in different ways, so it's hard to decide. Lately I find myself leaning more towards 16:9 or 1.85 though, mostly just not having a reason for showing wider portions of the locations.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

My mistake on the assumption then.

HOWEVER, people of any age can still be uninformed and give bad advice. I would still say the aspect ratio thing as a reason for turning down is suspect. I would think if Netflix thought the movie was good and would bring them revenue they would have taken it regardless of it being 2:39. Even if it’s just the way the 2:39 was implemented (some way that played havoc with the way they stream) it seems like there should be a simple fix for the filmmaker and he/she could rerender and resubmit. Shocking, but people lie and like to soft pedal rejection to us artistic types so maybe “aspect ratio” sounded better than “this movie is generally of poor quality.” I’m totally speculating here.

I stand by the rest of what I said above. Seriously, find a filmmaker with some actual distributed film credits under his/her belt and query them about all this. Offer to take them to coffee or lunch or something, see if they’ll give you an hour one day.

And look into back issues (or subscribe to learn about current movies/TV) of American Cinematographer on ebay. Probably every movie you’ve askes “why” about is in an issue somewhere.

I’m sure I mentioned this before but Frameforge has a free demo you could probably storyboard an entire movie with. You can recreate your actual locations in it, after taking measurements of the real locations, pose character models the way you think youd block the shots, and use lenses in all kinds of aspect ratios to basically see if your shot ideas are feasible in the real locations and help you decide which way youd like to shoot.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

It's unlikely a good quality feature film, that's attractive to their subscribers, would be rejected because of the aspect ratio, you can "pan and scan" a scope film or one of the other variations used by broadcasters when transmitting one of these films. It sounds more like a quick excuse, so that the Netflix agent can move on to a more interesting productions, without going into bruising detail.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I second that emotion.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

Okay thanks, makes sense that they would turn him down more gently.

I'm using to doing it with pencil and paper, but I can try out frame forge, thanks!

I don't know if I can get the locations before the storyboarding though, cause the locations usually come later in the pre-production process and by that time, you get so busy, that you want all the storyboards ready to go by then, especially since so many locations are subject to change a lot.

So I felt I had to guess what aspect ratio would work with the type of locations beforehand, rather than having them already to go.

Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
 

I guess Im having trouble seeing how you can even visualize shots if you dont know where youll be shooting, except in the most general way.