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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
It's whatever works, just don't change the ISO of the camera for more DOF. Usually you tend to keep the same stop for a scene for a consistent look.
The focus puller should be able to follow the fast action as long as they've got a reasonable stop on the lens. Often action is in a wider shot, so it's not usually a problem, unless you're dealing with tight shots |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Oh okay, but I thought the the aperture does change in a lot of movies, cause in a lot of movies, the aperture will be very deep for the master shots, but then shallow for the close ups. So don't a lot of movies change it in that sense?
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Check your depth of field tables, look at the relationship between focus distance and focal length of the lens plus the stops. For wide shots you commonly have a shorter focal length and/or film at a greater distance, while for the CU a slightly longer one and/or move in to be closer.
For practical reasons, you don't want to do a major change of lighting levels when shooting interiors, Higher lighting levels add to your costs, so you wish to keep that down. plus in the past, it increased the heat on the set. The stop used will vary, but f2.8/f3.5 is traditionally a good one because you can use a zoom lens, although with primes f2.0 - f 2.8 can be used. These stops also gave the focus puller a bit of a chance to keep focus, however, they'll need to be on the ball, Although I know one DP who was always f5.6. Note they will be using T stops on cine lenses, but the difference won't be much with modern lenses, plus we're talking abut DOF. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Oh okay. What you mean is, is that the closer you put the camera to the actors, the more the background will go out of focus right?
How come the background is still in deep focus on the actresses close up in mine though? Why didn't it go out of focus more, as I got closer? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
What was your aperture setting for that shot, Ryan?
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Well since the focus puller couldn't make it that day and I didn't want the actors to go out of focus I think I set it around f11 to be safe. To deep to get shallow DOF in a close up?
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
There's your answer, with that stop you'll be into deep focus territory.
Here's a DOF calculator, so you can see the difference changing the aperture makes. https://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Yes, at f/11 your depth of field easily extended all the way to the background.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
The focus puller was absent, so you just changed the iris setting to prevent you having to focus while shooting? Come on Ryan - we are not talking about shooting on a Panavision camera, we have viewfinders and a ring to rotate - any cameraman worth his salt should be able to focus. The TV guys do it all the time, and they don't have somebody to focus for them. If you don't have a focus puller it's hardly the end of the shoot!
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
In his defense pulling focus on small sensor cams yourself is no easy feat. Unless it’s something you’ve practiced repeatedly I wouldn't think you'd able to do it accurately.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Well, I've been using ⅔ and ⅓ sensors for years and years and never had a pro camera with autofocus and I've managed perfectly well - even shooting with the lens wide open. It's part of the standard camera operating practice. Ever watch golf, cricket or baseball on tv outside broadcasts and watched the cameraman track a ball in flight on a very long lens in perfect sharpness. Pan, tilt, zoom and focus all at the same time. In the studio, if you are a bit soft, you scan the image and if the background is sharper, you focus forward, and if the background is softer, focus back. It just needs practice.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
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You've had years and years. He has not. In my opinion he did the right thing. His hands were full enough as it is. It amazes me how you do what you do, and I'm honored to have shooters of your caliber participate on this forum. Professionals with your level of experience lend great clout and veracity to this community. But I don't think I can do what you do. I don't have those years and years of experience. Neither does the OP. I certainly agree with you that he could benefit greatly from practice. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
That was my mistake, I meant LARGE sensor cams. Which I think he is using. Much easier with 1/3 or 2/3 inch sensors.
I will say that if the cam is on sticks and locked down you can use markers (sticky arrows like you'd use for contracts to indicate where to sign) to mark your focus points on the lens itself, and pull at the appropriate time, but if you're handheld? Or need to follow action (two instances where you really can't look away from the image to look at your marks)? Very tough. Not saying impossible but yes, you need a lot practice. And with DOF so shallow it's very easy to over or undershoot just a bit and have a slightly soft image and look like a jackass. And you can't even always tell, even with a monitor (a small one anyway) and peaking, 'til you're home and looking at it on a larger screen. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
There is a long Ryan thread which covers this subject.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
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However, it was said on here not to change the DOF and keep it consistent. So if I want a deep DOF to have two actors in focus in a wide shot, should I then not change it for close ups. In the wide shot though, the male actor walks in the room and walks over to her, and it's about maybe 10 feet to her at least I think or more even. So I would have to have it in deep enough focus for 10 feet, wouldn't I? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
You usually pull focus for a walk into a room like that.
Stopping down can change the characteristics of the lens. DPs select lenses on how they look and this can change depending on the stop used. You plan the lighting levels depending on the DOF you need, so the stop usually doesn't change. It's only with the greater camera sensitivity now available that you could even use f11 on an interior without blasting the subjects with light (and heat). Today, neutral density filters are used with modern cameras to obtain the wider lens apertures. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Oh okay thanks. Well because the Sony A7s II has really good qaulity ISO, I didn't need bright lights for deep DOF.
However, if I were to do what you say and shoot with a shallow DOF as I pulled focus as the guy enters the room and walks towards her, then she would be out of focus while he walked in. I kind of feel both actors should be in focus for the audience in a shot like that, unless I'm wrong? I mean is the Citizen Kane type style with every actor in focus in a shot, really that bad of a style nowadays? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
If you wish to use deep focus, there's no reason why you can't, other than current fashion. It really depends on the story, although I wouldn't go to f11, setting around f5.6 or f8 at the most would usually get the best out of the lens,
How soft she is would depend on the factors given earlier in the thread, however, you may wish to have the focus on her as he enters the room or switch from him to her as he walks towards her, It depends on the story, their relationship and what is happening dramatically. The choices are yours. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
this goes back to art, Ryan. Technology has given you far more choices, but you cannot write a rule book to follow, which is what you always strive for. Shot 3 has problem 201, turn to 201 in the book and apply rule. shot 4 has problem 22, and so on. You cannot work like this. Whenever people give advice, you add it to the rule book. However - every single piece of advice has a context, and you miss this.
You nearly got it here. Quote:
We're very good at answering questions, but we are not always right. Perhaps technically, we are - but part of being in charge is having the courage to collect viewpoints, and then do what you think best, and not constantly double-check every decision. I work for very big production companies, and in my role make on the spot decision that have big implications. My contract essentially says make it happen, and the bosses support the decisions I make on their behalf, even when later it turns out I was wrong. you are in this position apart from you have no boss. If you want a shot to have shallow DoF, then in your head you already know why this is. Maybe to hide the background, but probably to pull people's attention to the things in the frame you wish them to be looking at. A fully sharp image can present them on the big screen with a jumble of things to look at. Is this good? Only you know! |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Paul's post directly above provides the best advice possible.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I think I’m on a quest to get ryan to do what he thinks and not get sidetracked by second guessing. He’s probably a better film maker than me, because I always lack artistic vision. When I stand in for the director they ALWAYS pick different solutions to mine. Mine would work but theirs is usually better in the end!
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
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For example, in that same scene, I broke the 180 degree rule on the close up of the actress, and I had no problem doing this, but people told me it wasn't good and they said I should flip the image, so I don't cross the 180 degree line. That's why the lighting doesn't match on her close up, cause I was told to flip the image. If I were to follow my own instincts and not go by rules, I say that for future shoots, if more than one actor are moving around a scene, I could keep them both in focus with a deep focus, but if it's just a close up, then I have a shallow DOF. However, it was said on here before, that I maybe I should traditionally keep the DOF the same for all the shots in a scene to keep it consistent, so is that instinct of mine, not good then? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Know the rules before you break them.
Crossing the line is best done for a dramatic reason, just crossing for a CU usually doesn't work that well. Directors switch the line and stay over, however, they usually don't do so when just cross cutting between characters as they chat. The line maintains the geography of a scene, so crossing it has to be done for a reason.. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Oh okay thanks. But what if I wanted to a scene where I am breaking the rule while cross cutting back and forth between two characters talking.
It happens in this movie scene: So what are they doing different that allows for it to be okay, since it is cutting back and forth in a conversation? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
In that scene the geography is carefully set up at the beginning. The breaking of the line is used to show the disconnect/alienation between one character and his boss. It's also reinforced by the framing, with the space behind him seeming to slowly add pressure as the free talking boss softly gives his thoughts.
So, it's been done for a reason. The switch over the line occurs when he learns that there will be a next model - the dramatic revelation of the scene. This will set in train what happens in the rest of the film. What we don't know, looking at the completed film, are other angles that were shot at the time, the standard arrangement may have also been covered (This appears to be case with at least one shot), but during the editing this is one that was used for the above reasons. You can't do it for the sake of it, otherwise it won't work and you end up confusing/annoying the audience. There needs to be something that carries you over the line. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I never would have thought of any of that. Not that I don't watch the cinematography when I watch movies/shows but often the subtler stuff escapes me or goes over my head.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
If it works, within the context of the scene, you shouldn't be aware of it.
I've seen the film, so I know where this scene fits in the story. NCIS crosses the line quite often for no reason (other than coverage) and I'm aware if it. They get away with it because they cut on nearly every sentence, but it doesn't carry any dramatic weight. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I've never produced a remotely good 5.1 mix simply because my studio is not set up with the necessary speakers and balanced system. I can produce 5 tracks easily, in the right format, but I would have no idea how much to put in the rear, or how the balance between centre and L+R would work. When I've brought in a 5.1 mix to do things with, I'm amazed at what is in the individual tracks - I simply can't work out how the balance was achieved. Stereo only for me.
I'm an NCIS fan too, Bryan - and it's frankly the only US series I can comfortably watch without getting annoyed at. They seem to constantly break rules, invent new ones and give the audience a mix of soft, gentle edits exactly where I would have made them, then suddenly slam some sharp cuts in for effect. They work so well that I'm never aware of 'editing' as a feature, just editing to make the story run. There are lots of unusual framed shots too. If I was still teaching, NCIS would be a good collection of subject material for evaluation. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
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I haven't watched NCIS for so long but I can check it out. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
In your case I don't think it would work, the actress can do that though her performance and without the subtext for a reason and an approbate set up, it just looks like you made a mistake. .
In the "Ex Machina" example they jumped the across line earlier in the scene, so it had already been established and there was a build up to the key point. There are other methods could've been used to give the same feeling. Bear in mind that NCIS isn't cinematic in its styling. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I can't quite decide on that one, Bryan. It certainly isn't normal TV, but it isn't really cinema, so what would the style be. The constant camera movement, the unusual framing - can't quite pigeon hole it?
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I suspect it has its roots in documentary, "Hill Street Blues" started a fashion for it in US police shows.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I'd suggest that NCIS has been running so long, to such success, that they've been working on developing a unique sub-genre of the police procedural.
This is what happens in 16 years with such talent. Staff get tired of what they did 5 years ago and keep pushing! |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Amazing how slow paced Barney Miller is in comparison
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
What I think I like is that the writers simply cram as much in as they can, the people who shoot it ram in as much as they can and there's simply no room left for any shot that has no purpose. No point in useless cutaways, they waste time, so plan the thing properly so as to make every single piece a A shot list, and the B shot list a very short one.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
They usually write TV dramas slightly over length and then reduce it to the final running time during the edit.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
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It broke sometimes when the actors fought and entered from one room to another, but that is pretty much because the rooms were shaped in a way, in which I did not have enough space, to maintain the rule, and had to put the camera elsewhere. But what are the rules when it comes to breaking the rule, in a fight scene, out of curiosity? |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
The rule is quite simple. You don't do it, unless you need to and can justify it by it making the edit better. There is no way you can expand on this rule to makes something that you follow by prescription. It either works or it doesn't.
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Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
I see the rule being broken on a number of occasions in films and TV, usually it's a mistake. Sometimes you can spot the corrections in feature films where a shot has been flopped. EDIT It happens in "Waterloo" during a cavalry charge where the sabres are in their left hands.
The video earlier in the thread gives examples of the rule being broken and gives reasons why it works in these occasions. Doing so because the set hasn't much space isn't a reason, you can usually cheat the shots so you don't cross the line. Fight scenes really do need to make geographical sense, otherwise the blows don't connect correctly, resulting in the scene losing its power. The line can switch during a scene, if you set up the switch, that's different to you cutting so that people are facing the same direction for no reason..You might get away with the change if one actor is kicked into a room and you cross the line on the cut to inside the new room, however, him falling on the line straight towards the camera may be more powerful and then cutting to the other side for the next shot. The rule for breaking a rule is that it must work. |
Re: How does a filmmaker decide which aspect ratio to shoot in?
Oh okay thanks, I'll try to keep that in mind...
As for aspect ratio, after thinking about it, I think I am more set on 1.85:1 than 2.39:1 but only because it saves on needing as many extras in the scenes, since there are scenes of crowds of people. 1.85:1 means less extras, but I feel I am making the aspect ratio decision out of budget, more than out of artistic choice, but is that bad to put the budget before art in that sense? |
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