Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I glanced at some of his posts from that forum, he exhibits the same pattern of behavior we see here. He has very odd and disturbing script/story that don't make sense. Endless questions that never lead anywhere productive despite receiving well thought out responses. I can't see any different result taking place here. Very telling he was banned on that forum.

I can't see him producing this movie or buying any professional equipment. We are basically responding to the ramblings of someone who has serious issues.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay well, I can buy the equipment, get a DP and start making a movie then, if that's best. Do I worry too much about things going wrong and keep asking too much, and just need to do it? Should I not worry so much about every little thing, and leave a lot of those worries up to the other departments I hire?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If you buy a camera would depend on if you need a camera after the shoot on the film.

There are lots of cinematography books that you can read on the subject and these go into more detail than you will get in a forum. The only thing that they won't cover are the latest cameras or lights, but most of the books are pretty general, so that the information is still generally pretty applicable.

Most of your questions can be handled by your heads of department.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks, I have one book that talks about cinematography, but it's mostly dialogue scenes, where if for thriller scenes with lots of moving around, it gets more complicated. The book also talks about how to shoot things without cheating the camera, or thinking outside the box so much, so maybe I need a book that talks a lot more on how to do that correctly? I can try to find books on those too. And no, I don't necessarily need a camera afterwards, it's just that people in the community keep on expecting me to have my own camera.

They want me to be a videographer, and handle all the jobs, aside from directing, when it comes to jobs and gigs out there. So it seems they expect it of me, even though I am told I should just concentrate on directing only. As for doing an analysis of my own ideas and work, I have done that quite a few times I thought, or what could I be doing differently there?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You sound like someone who only wants to learn how to do one thing, rather than having the whole skill set that you need for the job, It's like learning to do one thing with a NLE, but not knowing how to fully use the NLE.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay. Well I was advised by a couple of other filmmakers I know that I am trying to be a jack of all trades, when I should just try to master directing and let other department heads worry about those other departments. Hire a good DP, instead of trying to direct and by worry so much about the DP's job.

Do they have a point? It was also said earlier on here to let the DP handle those problems, so should I then?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You would learn more in working with a real professional in ANY field than you are able to glean from books. You lack the ability to assess the worth of statements in a book (or on line) and put it into context. You cannot learn properly this way. We work in a very context driven industry. This is why we have real issues with rules, but have looser guidelines. We break rules when our gut tells us we should. We can assess quite well how something may work from using our common sense attached to our huge list of things that worked (but shouldn't have) and things that worked really badly (but should have!). We react, but also are pro-active, planning in advance.

When I was teaching, we had inspectors coming in, and had been beaten to a pulp by the management with paperwork, plans, strict following of the plans, no rule breaking etc etc. I was filming a scene where we needed to lower a coffin into the ground - and we had built a raised set so we could shoot looking up at the people standing around the grave. It involved a complex cutaway and reversals to make it look like the coffin was being lowered. The inspector arrived for this very session. It wasn't going very well - we couldn't make it look real. One of the students suddenly said. Why don't we cut a hole in the plywood decking we were using. We could then lower the coffin properly - I screwed up the lesson plan, told the group this was a brilliant idea and we had a spare sheet of ply next door - and a jig saw. I pointed at the screwed up plan, mouthed "sorry" to the inspector and we got on with it, and half an hour later we had the shot, and it looked great. One of the students even suggested we did it again with a Gopro on top of the coffin - a great shot as it went down, but looking up at the mourners. When the report came out - I got singled out for being willing to change plans and follow a student's suggestion - I was very pleased indeed. My bosses were furious as they maintained it could have gone badly wrong.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay sure. I can try to use my gut instinct when it comes to breaking rules, it's just that in the past, if I tried to do shots in unconventional ways, it looks off to the audience, like something was cheated or not done right. But I can keep plugging at it, if that's best, instead of trying to follow procedures all the time.

I've worked with professionals in other fields. Is there something I should be doing specifically there?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

er, learning how they do it Ryan?

Frankly what amazes me is that instead of spending time producing work to get better at it, you spend your time planning, developing, comparing, copying etc etc.

Maybe it's me - but I am quite decisive, and quite impulsive. I have just been ordering some very expensive equipment. I researched and found a particular product range that seemed to suit me fine, but doing a little Googling I found loads of people saying how awful it was, or how complicated or this and that. None of these people seemed to actually have this kit, but were talking earnestly about it negatively. Things they rubbished for me were advantages. I read the specs. I read the few reviews I could find and picked out the ones done by people who clearly had the right vocabulary. I dismissed the comments of people I clearly was not on any kind of level with. Ten grand later, the orders are placed and I have actually touched the equipment once, on a beach, in Portugal having flown out there to do a single evenings work, and the local hire company had provided it. I tucked it away in a corner of my brain and when I got a contract roll in where I needed something a little unusual, I thought about this product.

I didn't come on here or other forums and ask total strangers if I should do X, or Y and was the angle in degrees quoted in the spec suitable to my needs.

This really is what I don't get with you Ryan. If you want this camera and lens combo because it will meet your need and you can afford it - just have the courage to buy the damn thing. Sure - you might have made a mistake and after shooting the current project you like say, the camera, but hate the lens, then sell it and buy another. Don't ask US if it will suit YOU - how can we tell? You're rather like the lion in the Wizzard of Oz - no courage!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, it's just with the last telephoto lens I bought, I found it later it was fly-by-wire, as it was said on here, so I had to sell it and take a hit in money, instead of buying the right one to begin with. So therefore, I wanted to know if the camera I was buying was the right one, so I don't have to take another hit.

I thought that asking paid off in the past though. All the sound equipment I bought has been pretty good overall from asking, and that's cause I got good opinions from people online. So I just wanted to be sure with the new camera as well, so I don't have to take another hit possibly. I guess I just keep putting off producing work, is cause it costs money to get a DP, actors, and crew, and if the product turns out badly, then they loose confidence and don't want to do any more. So I wanted to learn more online first if possible, before spending a lot of money on a new product. But I can just bite the bullet and spend money on it and get a cast and crew, if that's best. However, I feel that the people in my community are getting really picky about what they want to do though. One actor I worked with a few times, even told me, that he doesn't want to do anything more, unless it's a really good script, and the production plan, is much more solid. So I guess I felt I just needed to really up my game before going in another project with everyone.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Your actor was probably the most honest one of your friends and associates. You made a big deal about this servo controlled lens - but as you can spot lenses that use servos because the distance scale is missing, presumably it wasn't high on your concern list? You bought a cheap lens, and for a cheap lens, it's quite good - but of course, it's designed for stills not video - and that usage difference is something you should have thought about. I get confused between the Ryan production where you do everything and the others where you say you'll be getting a DOP or another specialist, but then they want to do things their way and don't want you interfering. Somehow you got into co-directing when you were just the director's assistant and this went badly. Your sound operating caused grief. Your directing and script writing seemed to have eternal issues and you have an unfocusable lens on a camera you now don't want.

That's a very strange career progression.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well I didn't know that distant scale missing meant it was servo controlled. I just thought they didn't bother to put the distance scale on it, and I would have to mark my distances with a grease pencil. I have the kit lens that came with the camera. The kit lens does not have a servo controlled focus, and the focus is manual controlled with hard stops. But there are no distances marked on that lens either. So I figured it was the same case, as that manual focus controlled lens, that they just didn't bother to put them on. I didn't know that it meant that the lens was this newer fly-by-wire technology, I never heard of, or come across before. It's not that it wasn't high on my list, it's just I didn't know what fly-by-wire was.

If the one actor is the most honest, do you think I should listen to him and take on a much better script then, and have a more solid shooting plan and budget then? This is why I am trying to plan this next project so meticulously, cause of what he said, if he has a point.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

It's best not to go over old ground about the lens you bought, that just confuses things,

Unfortunately, everything is confused, so it's hard to follow what you're up to.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, I was just using that as an example of how I want to rule out hidden catches on the next camera I I buy. I will stick to talking about the camera, just using an example.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

There are always things that don't expect and accessories that you need to buy. Usually buying gear that's intended for a particular job works, however, you still need to learn the skills to use it..

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, but I thought that if the gear has certain shortcomings, that you cannot use it for certain applications, no matter how good you are with it, if that's true?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

if kit isn;t suitable for a particular application you either buy or rent some kit that is suitable for the job. You're unlikely to use an Arri Alexa as a crash camera, even though it probably could do the job if you were willing to risk an wreaking expensive camera. You'd use a cheaper camera for the shot.

That;s where having the skill and knowledge comes into play. You usually won't go too far wrong using gear that's designed for video, but you may still need to buy accessories, such as an electronic viewfinder, to have a good kit that can do a wide range of work.

Your problem seems to be that you don't have the budget to buy a kit that can do a wide range of work. You could easily spend your entire film's budget buying a camera an some lenses and yet still not be in the top tier of kit. However, it could shoot your feature film and a wide range documentaries.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay. So for example, I was told before that I cannot use the fly-by-wire lens to pulls focus. But was the problem me, and I just need to find a focus puller who is good enough to operate such a lens, instead of getting another one?

Or when it comes to getting a camera, could using a high ISO to compensate for a deeper DOF work, as long as the DP, has the skill to make a high ISO look good?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

A fly by wire lens isn't suitable for use by a focus puller using marks on the lens. There's a whole thread on this, so not worth going into detail.

High ISOs are best used on documentaries, where you have no choice and the content can't be got any other way, not to get deep focus with a telephoto lens at night. A skilled DP can't work against the laws of physics, but they will know ways of getting the best image. .

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, thanks sorry, just making sure, there is anything not covered, from before.

Well I talked to another filmmaker I helped with on projects before, and he says that I shouldn't bother to get a faster lens cause at night during a chase/horror scene, I am going to want that extra DOF, and I should concentrate on getting brighter lights instead of considering a faster lens, cause the DOF will be harder to work with then, if more shallow. Does he have a point?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If you google any product you will easily find it's target market. In fact, I find google image search the most revealing. One product I thought might work for me in a project I had not realised was really targeted at the DJ market. This rang the warning bells, and the 'reason' for some features jumped out. It also set a frame for reviews and youtube videos. Some comments I had read and thought supported my interest were then discounted because of the bias of the user base - which is important for the manufacturers.

I was quite dismayed over christmas to discover the camera hired in for one purpose - audience shots, was simply dreadful at this particular role. I hate the term fly by wire, but it had a servo lens. The person operating it was an actor. An actor with no interest or ability in camera work. Manual focus went wrong day one, test one. nothing but a mushy blur of an image. The autofocus was quick and accurate, UNTIL faced with looking out at the audience, where instead of faces, it would focus on the wall lamp behind, or worse, a showlight where it would try to focus on the bright spot. The camera was an EX3 a perfectly capable and well thought of camera - just being used on the wrong thing.

Your research for lenses needs to look for VIDEO designed lenses, not photographic ones. If you ever get budget for a focus puller, and frankly I suspect your budgets would spend money elsewhere before this role, then they would probably not take the job with incapable equipment. You seem to forget that professionals NEED certain facilities to do their jobs properly. I'm not ever going to market myself as a DoP for the movie industry because I do NOT have that skill set - but I do work in TV studios. I can do a good job with a proper industry standard camera and what they sit on. I've been asked to do work for a production where despite having a 15m wide LED screen as backdrop, their cameras are point and mix. Zoomed in on a performer, the manfrotto 400 series head is incapable of smooth panning. I will not use this kit - just the wrong stuff and I cannot produce good images with it.

Why not start a new topic? What lens should I buy? List the camera, and detail what you need the lens to do - AND - detail the budget. People avoid your huge rambling topics as theyve run too long. So ask the question, set the parameters and never start a response saying "OK thanks but ........"

People will suggest solutions. Take in their responses and consider them. Ask questions based on their responses and do NOT, ever, say "but I have been told......". People would not suggest things to be told their opinion is wrong based on your collection of friends who probably meant well, but knowing you, tried to explain things in your way, and you misunderstood.

I cannot recommend a lens for your intended BMC purchase, but if you simply ask a question, take in the responses, and resist the temptation to do your usual thing - the topic will bloom, discuss and then die - and let it. Do not confuse the people who respond like you usually do. Ask, listen, digest - let it die!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You want enough lighting levels to ensure that your focus puller has enough DOF to avoid having focusing issues. I would call f1.4 lens as fast, f2 to f2.8 as pretty standard for a prime and f2.8 for a zoom. F2.8 is pretty common shooting stop, but you don't want to stop down further than f5.6 , Day exteriors can be different, but f8 is pretty good. Unless you've got expensive lenses the f1.4 lenses are best used stopped down one or two stops.

For a drama an ISO of 400 to 800 should be roughly what you should be aiming for.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. I wasn't trying to start a new topic, I was just using the lens as an example of how a hidden catch can be missed by me before, and how I wanted to try to avoid those in buying a new camera. When I say I want to discuss certain things about the suggestion, I don't mean any disrespect by doing that. It's just that if something is suggested to me, and I notice a hidden catch or an inconsistency in the suggestion, than I feel I have to ask about it, and address the details of it. Is that really bad of me to want to address those points in the suggestion?

Oh okay, but if I want to have a deeper DOF, such as around f5.6, than I will need brighter lights if I shoot at night, if I am to keep the ISO at 800. What I could do is get a bunch of 1000 watt work lights and use those, however, if I need a generator to power them, I am worried about having to do ADR, since the generators will make the dialogue unusable probably. I think what we will have to do is, is shoot it in the style of a movie like Dirty Harry, and leave a lot of the scenes dark. But even at ISO 800, there is still noise in the dark spots. Will that be a problem?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Ryan the reason we suggest getting your own equipment is that you could answer most of your own questions yourself. Instead you sit at home watching movies and ask people on a forum how to film your movie . We’ve covered this over and over, you learn by doing.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well, I am just worried I will not buy the right camera, until I know some thing about it first. Shouldn't the filmmaker know what camera is right for them before they buy? It's just in the past, if I buy, and then answer the question myself, and the equipment does not suit my needs, then I get to re-sell it and take a hit then.

There is also another thing. If I shoot while leaving certain aspects of the scene unlit, like in Dirty Harry, in the Dirty Harry clips there doesn't seem to be any noise, in the unlit parts of the scene. But in my camera, there is noise in the unlit parts even at ISO 800. Is there something they are doing differently?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

We just cannot make you understand Ryan.

You do not have the means to light at night. Its incredibly expensive to do right, and work lights just don't have the optics to throw light very far - they're work lights, and look terrible. The Dirty Harry thing uses contrast. The vast proportion of the frame is black, with hardly any detail. Up the thread you were told that the original, in the cinema had more detail, but the compression on videos on Vimeo and youtube tends to remove that detail.

You could probably light it with a car headlight - you'd get that stark but punchy light. It would also be silent.

Film makers do know what camera is right for them. I have NEVER bought a camera and been surprised by it. You don't have the courage to do this, or maybe the ability to read and understand specs. We've also suggested buying from a dealer who does returns - yet you persist in asking quite entry level questions. even worse, your 'technical' questions seem to use baselines plucked out of thin air. We cannot tell you how to shoot your movie - we are not clairvoyant!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Alright well I will look at some cameras and pick one then, unless the DP of course will have a camera that can suit the night shooting better. As for night shooting, should I just get a DP and ask him what do about it then, since I don't want to change the scenes, cause that can make the script hold together less?

The thing about car headlights, is we would have to remove them from the car to get them at better angles. Is this possible, but still power the lights? Unless we leave the lights inside the cars, and it will still look good from a car level angle? I am also worried about noise in the dark areas that is not lit and wonder if that noise will be acceptable, even at ISO 800 there is noise in my current camera so far, in unlit areas at night.

But do you think maybe I am too worried, and trying to be the DP too much, and should just direct, and get a DP to do all this, and not worry so much perhaps?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I give up, honestly I do.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Sorry I will implement the headlights and try to worry about it then, if that's best.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Hire theatre lights if you can't get film ones.

You can now get LED film or video lights that run off a battery,

At 800 ISO, you're probably talking about 2k lights for a reasonable area.

You can ADR the dialogue if the generator is too noisy, although they are better than they used to be. You'll need more than a small Honda for lighting.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yeah for sure, if I use cars, I would need quite a few. I can try that then. However, in my camera, if I try to have contrast such as only light certain parts of the location and leave the rest dark, like in Dirty Harry, there is still noise in the dark areas, even at ISO 800. It seems that how it is on my camera, the dark areas will still have noise, compared to the lit area in a scene.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I thought you were buying a new camera, so what have the noise levels in your current camera got to do with those in possible new cameras?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I've gradually been coming to the opinion he doesn't have the funds to buy a camera (actually anything). I'm not saying this to bash him but I feel like people here are under a mistaken impression he might buy something. From what I understand he is creating a wish list for this script and if he ever got funding he would hire everyone. The likely hood of this happening could be very low.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh I just meant that I hope the noise is not the same in the new camera, that's all. I am also wondering if I should just allow the DP to use their camera instead as well. But I do the funds to get one.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

So what camera are you getting? When do you plan to buy it? How much money do have to spend on the camera?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I was thinking the blackmagic pcoket 4K, I have $3000 to buy it with, which should be enough according to the store prices. After I pick a DP, I will get their opinion on it, and if it's the camera to use, unless they have something better.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Great let us know when you get it. Btw, the camera will not be of much use without lenses, batteries, memory cards and a device needed to pull focus.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks. Do you think I should follow what that actor said before and that I really should let a DP and crew worry about all this and I just concentrate on directing only and stop trying to be a jack of all trades, and leave the rest up to other departments?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Possibly the most logical idea youve ever posted on here.

I 100% support this idea.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Sure I can just do up the shot list of the whole script. A preliminary shot list and storyboards, and give it to the DP. Let the DP see what he/she can do with it, and possibly make adjustments, if that sounds good?