The DVX is smaller and you can't change lenses. However, the resolution is higher and it shoots progressive scan instead of frame mode. They are different types of cams, although they share the same CCD size. Just pick one, depending which one tickles your fancy. But keep in mind that the XL1s is proven, the DVX is not (not yet anyway).

As an old still image photographer, it constantly amazes me how the hype and legend gets perpetuated about 24fps video. One of the things never mentioned is the fact that 24fps requires a slower shutter speed. As a result, several factors are introduced.
1-the aperture settings are usually smaller than 60fps
2-the shutter speed is slower
3-because of the slower shutter speed, motion blur is a lot more prevalent

Motion blur is something film-makers are used to and work around. Fast pans become more difficult...in fact, fast pans tend to stutter. I, personally, don't like this weakness of slower shutter speeds. The romantically inclined can't live without it...go figure.

You'll get a better image because:

a) Higher resolution 1280x720 pixels (vs. XL1s's 720x486)

b) True progressive frame. Canon XL1s frame mode is NOT true progressive.

c) Variable frame frate. You can (should be able to) shoot at 60FPS and slow it down the frame rate to 24 FPS (for slow motion) without the strobed look of most NLEs.

interchangable lens vs 24p
 

What do yo think? Is the 24p worth loosing the option to change lenses? This would have to do with someone who is looking to do shorts and features for mostly festivals and internet.

Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit.

I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these.

The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does.

I think it depends on your time frame for wanting (needing?) a camera and waiting to see what Canon and the rest of the players do in regards to the DVX100. In the short term this camera is affecting the pricing of the XL1 and others. In the long term all the manufactures are working on something similar to this. At this point Panasonic has set the bar, the rest will try to exceed it.

If you have an investment in Canon equipment and lenses it might benefit you to wait. I suspect Canon will have something on the market within a year or so to directly compete with the DVX100. They don't want to lose the market share and lead they have in this segment. If you can't wait, the Panasonic has features and benefits that no other camera at this price point have. Will this camera make or break your next project for a festival? I hope not.

An alternative strategy would be to invest in a high end film effect plug-in like Magic Bullet ($1,000). Start saving for the Canon's equivalent or Sony's etc.

Jeff

well my goal as of right now is, that I have been saving and plan to purchase a minidv camera and editing equipment close to summer. This summer I want to start on my first serious short project.

Summer for me is 9 months away. That would give you time to buy your editing equipment and get up to speed on it. Most people find the learning curve is much steeper on NLE software than a camera. Take a wait and see attitude toward the cameras. This will do two things for you. As competitors to the DVX100 come out they will have newer and different (advanced?) features from which to choose. The price of the DVX100 will fall as competitors come to market. By waiting until you are closer to starting production you'll save some money. Money that can buy a better mic, more Ram, another hard drive etc.

Cameras are all glamor and sexy. We like the buttons and menus and cool stuff. But they really are just a tool. Don't be fooled by all the hype surrounding a new product. If you have any experience shooting you won't need the camera until a few months before production so that you can get familiar with the features. Once you get your NLE up and running, rent a DVX100 for a weekend and try it out. It may or may not be the camera you think it is.

jeff

ok, great. So what you are suggesting is to get the editing equipment now and start getting use to that asap. Then wait until summers about here to decide on a camera, after Ive tested a few out and let the prices drop? Sounds like a good idea to me.

If I were shopping for a whole set-up that's what I would do. the editing equipment and software will not change a great deal in nine months. I edit all my projects on a two year old Mac G4. Plenty of horsepower for what I do. Editing shorts in not all that demanding on a system in most cases.

jeff

Yes I just posted in the MAC forum about it. I too am looking into a G4 set up.

fringing...
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Without question for me. I'm working on my second short for festival circuit.

I sold my XL1 with 3X wide and 14X manual lens to get two of these.

The image is so much better than XL1 frame mode or XL1 deinterlaced in post. And wide and tele adaptors will arrive soon enough and won't affect the image near as much as the low res XL1 image does. -->>>

With all due respest and gratitude for your posting sample clips and sharing your impressions.... aren't you at least a little concerned about this purple fringing, etc.? I know it's been argued that it can be found on some Canon's and Sony's, but what I've seen from this DVX100 is quite obviously a flaw. I agree the camera looks quite promising, but I'm a little surprised no one has stepped up to explain this flaw. Have you contacted your dealer or Panasonic yet to inquire about it? If so, what did they say? If I'd recieved one of these first cams and found such blatant fringing and abberation, I'd certainly be demanding explanation, a refund, or a date that my cross-shipped flaw-free unit would be arriving. Thoughts?

skip hunt

It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV.

Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD.

It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living.

On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink.

It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image?

I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records.

Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc.

In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur.

That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam.

Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me.

issue...
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : It's not a flaw in my view. I'm kind of puzzled as to the large reaction since I've seen fringes on screen grabs (black, yellow, though pink is a first) since I started messing with DV.

Plus, my guess is that some of occasional artifacts may occur with the increased data recorded by the camera head, then forced into DV compression. I would expect the images to have occasional artifacts, depeding on settings, lighting and the like. This crops up, even on HD.

It's a fact of life with video cams. Check some recent post on 2-pop from posters who've done film out for a living.

On my XL1, a black bar was added by the cam to cover the fringe. And it was much larger than this area. On this cam, no black bar so we see pink.

It's not visible on any NTSC monitor, nor on web output, nor on film out. What exactly are you concerned about? You are wanting me to call me dealer about a flaw in the non visible area of the image?

I would be concerned if it showed up when I was actually watching or projecting my image, but I love the images this camera records.

Let me say that again. I love the images this camera records. Film cameras and film stock are not perfect either. Gate weave, shutter problems, lab issues, subtle scratches etc.

In my XL1, I had to suffer the softness of frame mode, especially on wide shots. Plus the lower rez of Canon. Or if deinterlaced in post, I got problematic jaggies and motion artificacts caused by lack of motion blur.

That affected the entire visible image. It was a limitation.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand you terming this a "flaw". Screen grabs are actually a fairly mediocre way to judge a cam.

Motion picture images are, well in motion. It's the 24P and 1/24 and 1/48th that excites me. -->>>

I'm not disputing that this cam is capable of nice imaging. The reason the fringing is an issue for me, is that many of my most recent projects were delivered for vhs delivery and broadcast. However, the clients have also wanted the footage recompressed for web delivery, CDROM, DVD, and via laptops for their sales people. I've only been using GL1s for the last couple of years and can't recall ever seeing this sort of fringing. Granted, I typically am not ripping stills out of my footage. I use a digicam for that. But if I'd delivered clips for web, CDROM, DVD, and laptop delivery that had pink/purple fringing along the left, I guarantee I'd have heard about it from the client. Why doesn't someone from Panasonic or one of the dealers chime in and either explain that it's normal, or that it's being fixed? Before this cam was released, the dealers and Pana reps were all over the place, now nothing. Don't you find that a bit odd? Again, I AM excited about this cams potential, and will most likely buy one, but not until someone sets my mind at ease regarding this fringing, and not until the cam gets "shaken down" a bit more. Thanks again for the feedback and clips! Keep'em comin'.

Skip Hunt

Skip:

Your GL1 has the same fringing, actually a little larger. It's covered by a black bar in the camera, so you don't notice that black bar when you create a web file. For the panny, just add the black bar on export to web.

I've updated by other cam page with a GL1 grab so you can see it.

This topic has been covered on the XL1/s here

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743

When the server crashed in July (maybe this thread was the cause of all the heat) this thread was very active and a number of posts around the beginning of July were lost.

This is a no win arguement. You're either on one side of the fence or the other. For some the line (fringing) is lost time and money. Plain and simple. For others it's no big deal and doesn't affect there production or post production in any manner. The important thing is to be aware that it's there before you buy. Nobody likes surprises in this business.

Jeff

my GL1 doesn't have it....
 

I just went over a dozen stills I delivered to a client from GL1 footage and I can't find any fringing at all. I'll post later. So no... my GL1 does NOT have this flaw.

skip

We are talking about two different things. I'm referring to the fringes at the edge of the frame - see the black bars at the edge.

You must be talking about edge issues, which I do see the same way others do.

How do you achieve 24p, 30 fps or 60fps, etc?
 

i know 60fps is default, but for 30ps, or 24p mode, do you simply press a button, and it records like that?

and for my next question:

what do you need to take advantage of the 24p mode? I mean, it shoots in prog scan, but then you upload to your comp, but will it still have that quality? or do you need a prog scan TV to support it? i dont understand.

(i guess sorta like how shows are shot in HDTV like on CBS, but if you dont support it, you see the normal footage)

Actually 60fps is 60 fields per second.
30p and 24p are frames per second.

Per choosing, the camera has a rotary scene file switch for storing settings (5). There are presets, two 60i, 30p and two 24p, but you can change them to anything you want.

I have 4 24p modes and 30P. 60i sucks :)

Per editing, check the resource page (top item in this forum) for lots of links to detail information plus look at the FAQ Aaron posted here. All very helpful.

60i
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Actually 60fps is 60 fields per second.
30p and 24p are frames per second.

Per choosing, the camera has a rotary scene file switch for storing settings (5). There are presets, two 60i, 30p and two 24p, but you can change them to anything you want.

I have 4 24p modes and 30P. 60i sucks :)

Per editing, check the resource page (top item in this forum) for lots of links to detail information plus look at the FAQ Aaron posted here. All very helpful. -->>


Can you elaborate on how 60i mode "sucks?" I was hoping in 60i, it'd be at least close to what you can get with the Canon's and Sony's (which don't suck). Can you explain?

skip hunt

Yes, I think all 60i sucks. Even CineAlta 1080i sucks.

I started shooting film. It's progressive or bust for me. I'll never shoot 60i again unless I'm trying to make it look like crappy interlaced video.

prog scan..
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Yes, I think all 60i sucks. Even CineAlta 1080i sucks.

I started shooting film. It's progressive or bust for me. I'll never shoot 60i again unless I'm trying to make it look like crappy interlaced video. -->>>

Yes, I'm certainly aware of the 24p and 30p mode benefits. Lido sent me a couple clips shot in his back yard which I burned to DVD and played back in a prog-scan player via component into a prog-scan LCD projector. When I activated prog-scan, the stuff looked pretty good. His stuff had the purple fringe also, except on one of the clips, it wasn't nearly as evident. I'm still waiting to hear what the deal is with this fringing before I buy, but I'm very curious why everything I've seen so far looks so dark? Including your stuff. Most of it looks somewhere between a full stop and as much as 2 stops under exposed. This could easily account for the dull color. I've previewed many of these clips on 4 different systems, and they all seem dark. Have you tried giving images a bit more exposure? Have you heard anything else regarding the fringe? Or, do you really not care about it at all?

Also, I can see how under exposing a bit would make sense for film transfer, and perhaps this is what Panasonic was thinking when they set up these default cine settings, etc. However, if you're not going to film, but just want a more film like lattitude, contrast, and 24p motion, it seems like you could adjust for better pop. The thing that's baffling me is that all the images including the "pro" shot stills look dark and muddy. I've shot 16mm as well, and everytime I look at these sample clips, I keep saying to myself, "why do these people keep underexposing like this? If they'd just give it a bit more light, we'd be seeing better results in terms of color rendition and contrast." But, because we/I haven't seen anything properly exposed for NTSC viewing or even over-exposed to see what that looks like, it makes me wonder if this is all the Pana is capable of. Thoughts?

skip hunt

I always underexpose video unless I'm trying to blow out the highlights. I can get details from the shadows in post, but once the highlights are clipped, they are gone.

24 p and ntsc in NLE
 

next shoot is for dvd, i'm thinking of trying to shoot in 24p for studio green screen shots (50%) but i have some location shots that will have some quick action shots from a 10 foot crane so i will need to use the dreaded autofocus and since the 24p doesn't use the auto focus I am wondering how the 24p will match up to the ntsc in the editor and problems converting the ntsc to 24p all so that it can be converted to mpeg for dvd in the end

is it really worth all the trouble????
If you have a pan100 camera please tell me....

the 24p will be very handy for animation work, that is my main reason i'm looking at the pan100.... but I still need live action from a crane....

yada yada yada

As far as I know, there are no native 24 p NLE's available and the Pana allways outputs a 3:2 pulled down NTSC (interlaced) format. So yr 24p *is* NTSC in yr NLE. The only thing is that it is easier to convert the 3:2 pulled down NTSC to real 24p for film tranfer (of no use for DVD!)

Panasonc also offers an advanced telecince mode which is easier to translate your captured footage to true 24p for your NLE. If your NLE supports 23.9x (aka 24p) , then you should look into getting dvfilmmaker from dvfilm.com. This advanced mode is mainly for converting captured footage to 24p in your editor.

The standard telecine is the more traditiontional aproach used for NLE work.

I don't think the advanced mode telecince would be recognized by standard 3:2 pulldown algorithms used in most DVD players or progressive displays, or even Windows Media player.
In fact if your 24p final output is to mpeg2 DVD, your 24p footage will once again have to be telecined to 29.97 drop frame to play on NTSC television, which.... with the new progressive DVD players, will once again be converted back to 24p for final display.

Ain't technology grand?

24fps
 

This might be a solution :

-> Shoot with the DVX100 in 24p advanced, which uses an unconventional 2:3:3:2 pulldown

-> Process your footage with DVfilm Maker to remove the extra 6fps added for NTSC capture by the cam (no recompression / image degradation necessary if you shoot in advanced mode)

-> You'll get a DV file in .mov since only Quick Time is able to encode in true 24fps or 23.98fps, whichever suits you the best.

-> Then use a 24fps or 23.98fps Timeline in Premiere to edit.

-> Output to 24fps or 23.98fps for film transfer or use DVFilm Maker again to make a 3:2 pulldown to bring it back to 29.97 NTSC for DVD / VHS...

That's what I would / will do...

For the live action part you could always use the 30p or 60i modes and intercut it with the rest of your footage (with a bit of processing to edit in 24fps)

Apple has been working with Panasonic (announced at NAB) on their FireWire connectivity. It's rumored that in the next version of FCP a direct 24p feed will be possible. Premiere could also be made to do the same.

Jeff

thanks for your comments,
just what I thought - it seems to take a lot of conversion to get that shutter look. i guess i was fishing for an adverb on the look, so i guess that's telling....
i have dps hardware and cyborg will edit everything...
oh well, it'll help on the rotoscoping at least....

yeah, "it's getting better all the time"

Check Sync in 24p Modes
 

Hi All,

Myself and some other users of the DVX100 that have been primarily working in the 24p modes have been encountering a consistent sync problem: the audio is *recorded* on the tape 2 frames in advance of the picture.

Surprisingly, not very many people have reported this, but I wonder if this is in part due to few using these modes extensively yet.

The current thinking is that this anomaly has to do with the pulldown process that camera is performing (buffering 2 frames of video without delaying the audio.) If this is the case, it would be a universal *feature* - the problem of course is that they did not delay the audio as well or more importantly point out this issue in the documentation. (It certainly ate up more than my fair share of time chasing it down...)

Of course, it is fairly easy to rectify in post once one knows to expect it. (With the pulldown conversion even handling it automatically.) But again, it will be somewhat unfortunate if this is something that is not handled properly at the camera itself.

I would like to know if others here can replicate the same problem:

* Record in both 24p Standard and Advanced;
* Shoot something that is easy to distinguish sync with, ie - clapboard or hands clapping;
* I'm guessing that you'll see a sync problem even on playback and it will be 2 frames ahead upon examining the capture;
* Please post back here what your results are.

I certainly don't want to set off an alarm that the camera is unusable, because I don't think this is the case even if this sync problem is for real. Let's just see how universal of an issue it is - with any luck, maybe it is just a bad mix of settings...

Thanks,
Clayton Farr

Hey Clayton, will I be able to see this when I play back footage on the camcorder itself? I'll have to try this when I get the chance, I haven't shot in any of the 24p modes yet.

I have a client that is using the DVX100 and I'll ask him if he's had any audio sync issues. I shot some test footage with it and didn't notice any audio sync problem. But we were more looking at the video and could have missed a sync error. I'll post back tomorrow or saturday what I find out.

Jeff

Hi,

Yes you should be able to notice sync on playback if the sound is a distinct event like a clapboard or clapping your hands together. (Sound should be early.) It seems to only be an issue in the 24p modes (Standard and Advanced pulldowns), I think.

Try shooting in these two modes (as well as 30p and 60i if time permits) with a distinct sync sound and let us know what results you encounter.

Thanks,
Clayton

For anyone who missed my post on 2-pop.



http://home.inreach.com/bobinick/audio-sync.jpg

I made this picture displaying audio sync, from results gathered in Vegas Video, which shows the audio waveform.

The right edge is where the "clap" takes place. The scale is two frames. The centerline is the division between the frames.

This shows that 60i and 24p (at about 1.85 frames) are the most out of sync and that 24pa is the most in sync (at about 1.6 frames). (These numbers are estimates taken from the supplied picture)

I heard back from a client of mine. The audio on his unit is out of sync also. He spent the weekend doing test with different modes and settings and reports the sync error exists in all the modes. He's not a happy camper. He bought his unit about a month after they first came out.

Jeff

Are people capturing from the cam or seperate deck. I did my captures from a JVC deck and did not notice any sync errors, though have not done a formal sync?

Just did a very quick test in both 24p modes. I simply recorded my hands clapping a distinct beat, even snapping my fingers here and there, but failed to see a sync problem. Keep in mind that I'm new to all this and so perhaps my eyes and ears are fooling me. Was the sync problem clearly evident? I clapped and so on for about a minute in each mode, 24p and 24p Advanced. Watched the playback on the LCD and monitored the audio using my consumer grade Koss headphones connected to the AG-DVX100. I'm gonna do the test again and watch it on a production monitor and some reference speakers once I can buy them. Any other suggestions to try?

(Got my AG-DVX100 from Zotz Digital)

According to DVfilm.com, only "some" of the DVX's have this sync problem. Looks like "some" will be getting recalled. I haven't noticed any problems with mine yet, but I've been mostly concentrating on image. It does seem evident that many do in fact have a sync problem. I'm hoping someone from Panasonic will comment.

Skip Hunt

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback thus far.

Being out of sync was pretty easily seen on playback when we had a clapboard in the shot. ('Clack' occurring before fully closed.) It was a bit difficult to discern on dialogue shots, other than the feeling that something is not quite right.

I have not seen/tried just clapping hands myself yet, but I presumed that the results would be the same. I think as long as you have some distinct sound 'event' with a clear, corresponding visual reference you should be able to tell what is going on. Try capturing the footage to see if the waveform lines up with the picture or not.

Regarding capturing, I personally have not yet captured using the DVX100 as a deck - but I have gotten the same results (audio early by 2 frames in 24pa) when capturing from both Canon and Sony cameras.

As for it being a limited problem I haven't heard enough reports from the "I'm in sync" camp to be sure yet. (Of course there are plenty of people not mentioning it as a problem either way, but I had initially chalked this up to many shooting in 30p/60i. Now with some reports that there may be sync problems in these modes as well, I'm not sure what to think...)

Skip, Stephen, or any others - have you specifically tested your cameras in all of the modes and found it NOT to be a problem? The only report I've heard thus far that specifically certified the camera as being in sync was Noah's (Kadner.) Although I didn't ever get a confirmation from him on what mode(s) he was referring to.

I'd be interested in continuing to build the sample 'pool'. Please let us know what results you confirm.

Thanks again,
Clayton