<<<-- Originally posted by Clayton Farr : It seems to come down to the way that FCP 3 works with fields or the lack there of. -->>>


Seems like this problem would have been noticed by the thousands of people that have edited XL-1 frame mode material in FCP. Any of you all out there? Is it possible there is an *earlier* version of FCP that plays well with progressive-scan frames?

Yeah you would think...

Also, for that matter, what about the people who are using FCP with film originated material (via something like Cinema Tools) and finishing to a video master or for those working with HD progressive?

I'd love to hear of some combination of settings that work properly, if they're out there...

Clayton

(BTW - To accurately notice the fields being tossed out in FCP either view at 100% with 'square pixels' turned off OR export footage/frame and view in separate app. [with 'High Quality' turned on if viewing in QT Player.])

24p cine footage
 

Hi I'd like to see various pieces of footage from the DVX100 in 24p cinema gamma mode.

Can anyone point me to where to see some?

Thanks

http://momentsinmotion.com/demo.htm
Download the demo "Christmas Magic"

native 24p output to filmstrip in AE 5.5
 

can anyone provide some info on this process? the goal is an entirely deinterlaced progressive filmstrip for work in photoshop, from 24AP footage. i'm capturing with FCP 1.2, if that makes a difference. Thanks!

filmstrip format is uncompressed, be prepared for humongous filesizes

not a problem.. this will be for very brief clip rotoscoping. i just can't have any interlaced or blended frames to do motion study.

does FCP output filmstrip?, I know Premiere does

fcp has no filmstrip export option that i know of

Progressive 30p -> 24p Slow Motion
 

I'm starting work on this surreal, dreamlike sequence. In it, I want to run the speed a little slower than normal. Here's what I'd like to do. I'd like to shoot with the DVX100 at 30p and then slow it down by playing it back at 24p. So, here are my questions:

1. When the camera is set for 30p, does it really shoot exactly 30 frames per second or 29.97 fps? The DV format requires 29.97 fps, and I assume it plays back exactly 29.97 progressive frames per second. Is that correct?

2. Using After Effects or Final Cut Pro, does anyone know how to take 30 (or 29.97) progressive frames per second and play them back at 24 fps to slow down the speed? Interpret footage? Time remap?

Thanks,
Russell

Video actually plays back at exactly 30 FPS. The fact that the average framerate is 29.97 accounts for embedded data in the stream that's not video data, that still has to stay in sync with the audio track...but that's just a technicality.

VirtualDub and AviSynth have great frame rate subroutines. They will also telecine and do a 3;2 pulldown on the video. A great deal of the method of approach depends on whether you've acquire interlaced(60i) or progressive(24p). Avisynth will take a 60i datastream and convert it to 60p by making each field a frame.Once done, slowing the framerate to 24 frames per sec is rather trivial. In Vegas 4, a velocity envelope will change the framerate to whatever you wish. Dunno about AE. After slowing, a video resampling helps to remove the jitters.

So you're in Euless? I'm down in Austin. Anyway, that is one way to do slow motion, shooting 30P but bringing it into a 24P project. Another, and probably the best way, would be by using Twixtor, a plug in for After Effects. Twixtor, by interpolating entirely new frames in between existing frame, like a 3D program (tweening), creates most possibly the smoothest slow motion you can get for DV. That way you can slow it down by any speed you want to, and it will still look smooth, especially on locked down shots. Looks just as if you had overcranked on a film camera, without the stuttering effect of doubled up frames that most video slow motion has. If you're shooting 24P, do remember to remove the dummy frames first so that it will process the slow motion right. Also a neat tool for that weird just in case situation where you shot something 30P and need to change it back to 60i. It's definitely worth the $400.

24p and action sports(surfing)
 

Hi - I make surfing movies that are sold on DVD and VHS. Going to film is not something that is an issue for us. I currently shoot with an XL1S. With that considered what do any of you think of the DVX100 for surfing footage. Will the 24p produce a cleaner image? Is there a zoom extender for the DVX100. 10 times optical is not enough..

I think the image is much cleaner than the XL1s and the progressive move produces nice images if you like the way film looks.

Per telephoto, Century Optics (www.centuryoptics.com) just started selling a 1.6X adapter, so that's as much as you can get.

waz12345,

Do remember though that this means fewer points of action, so sudden camera movements aren't going to look all that pretty. I would suggest watching some of the old surfing documentaries from the 60's and 70's for type of shots that will work best with 24 fps material....

The DVX100 with a 1.6X tele convertor is not near enough magnification for long range sports like surfing. The XL1, while perhaps not having the look of the DVX100 is capable of much greater magnification through the use of EF XL adapter. This allows you to put on the far superior Canon EOS EF 35mm lenses. You will still have optical image stabilization with several of the EOS lenses and magnification that will put you right in the action.

The DVX100 with a tele convertor will be a poor substitute. However, we all have budgets to live within. The ideal combination would be the EF adapter and the Canon 100-400 IS zoom. But your in the range of $2,000or so. For about $1,000 you can get the adapter and 70-300 IS zoom. There are links to footage with that combination if you search some of Steve Nunez posts. Also search surfing. That topic has been covered several times, but not in the context of the DVX100.

Info on outputing 24p or 24p advanced to SVCD.
 

Info on outputing 24p or 24p advanced to SVCD. OK her I go. I have just shot my first 10 min. of 24p & 24p Advanced. I captured using an AG -DV2000 deck to Vegas 4 at 24 fps. I also captured ScLive, Premiere 6.5 and Avid ExpressDV 3.5 all at standard 29.97 ntsc. I did a side by side shoot with a Sony VX2000 in 29.97 ntsc. I could not believe the difference! The richness in color and the look of film was striking. I am so very happy that I didn't go with and XL1s for the interchangable lens. Though I still wish the zoom was a bit more powerful. But gladly give it up for the film look.

So how do I get the best SVCD out of a 24p or 24p advanced. footage. I use CCE SP 2.66 and Avisynth. In the past I would use this script on 29.97 720 x 480 source

LoadPlugin("decomb.dll")

DirectShowSource("AG-DVX100.avi")

BilinearResize(480,480)

Telecide(guide=1).Decimate(cycle=5)

ConvertToYUY2()

ResampleAudio(44100)

When I used Decimate() it would drop the frame rate to ntsc film rate 23.976 fps from 29.97 fps source. I would then do a pulldown to the m2v encoded file to bring the rate back up to 29.92 fps compliant SVCD frame rate.

But I am at 24p or 24p Advanced to start. Decimate(cycle=5) in the script made one hell of a difference in the outputted encode. So much that I would not think of not using it on a regular interlaced source. So here I am. Is this a truely non-interlaced capture that I get from Vegas Video 4? Can the decomb plugin, Telecide(guide=1).Decimate(cycle=5) help me with a better finished quality encode? What is the best way for me to use CCE SP 2.66 and Avisynth 2.50 for SVCD from 24 fps source?

Here is one for you experts that really know your stuff.


Thanks


Kevin

How about the dvx100 w/out 24p?
 

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat..._ag-dvc80.html

...and it's cheaper, too.

I haven't found any place to buy it yet. I want to know it's street price and availability. I am shopping for a new cam now.

DVX without 24p is like the chocolate cake without the chocolate...

I know but a lot of people are not into the 24p for various reasons and buy a GL2 or VX2000 or PD150 and if this cam was priced right it would be every bit as good or better than those models. I bet a street price would be less than 2500.

Why don't you just do the pulldown and leave the Telecide out
of the script?

A quick search of the net found one place advertising it at full msrp of $3,295 and another (more recognizable) dealer stating they are taking advanced orders at $2,750. That's pretty close to the $2,500 you mentioned Alex.

Wonder if Panasonic fixed the slack in the focus ring on this new cam (DVC80). It sounds like it has some nice features but the GL2 is still a proven cam and with a nice lens.

At any rate, the DVC80 may be just the ticket for folks that want a bigger flip-out screen and the other features of the DVX100 (sans the 24p).

Nick

24p & 24pA default to non-drop frame tc?!
 

I read in the manual that regardless of the timecode setting 24p modes default to non-drop frame time-code. Is there a work around? I'm worried about innacurate project lengths due to the extra .02 frames a second...that will add up on long projects.
Anybody have any insite into this issue?

The non-drop frame time code will not reflect the actual run time. If you're concerned about program length, use a Time Code calculator and figure total run time manually.

This wont cause audio sync problems right? It's just when the audio sample rate is below 48kb/s....

The DVX100 has sync problems unrelated to the audio frequency recorded at or what an NLE captures it at. To the best of my knowledge the DVX100 audio has neither of the aforementioned recording or capture problems. However, the DVX100 does have a video delay (sync) problem. The video delay cause the audio to be 1 1/2 to 2 frames before the video. This needs to be fixed in your NLE.

Is that just in 24p mode or in 60i also?

Where can I read more about this- I was totaly unaware of this!

Do a search, I wrote about it on several occasions. Adam Wilt has it on his site. The delay is a little less noticeable on the 60i if I remember correctly. The delay is very noticeable on an LCD display (most LCD displays have a frame or two delay also).

24p non-drop frame captured into Premiere using Drop-frame TC
 

Will I encounter any problems capturing 24p footage in Premiere if I don't change the default off of drop-frame timecode. I know 24p modes default to non-drop frame timecode.....so what happens when "drop frame" is specified in your project you capture the footage under?

Not sure, hopefully it will run project at 29.97fps which is what the Panasonic is capturing.

However, you would get much better results with DV Filmmaker if you are planning on using Premiere, currently one of the worst solutions for 24p editing out right now.

The camera records at 29.97 no matter what mode it's in. It's the pulldown which distingquishes it between 24p (4:3) and 24pa (2:3:3:2). It's only when you capture into an NLE that has native support for 24p that it can adjust the frames via the pulldown method to edit in 23.97. Your right...Premiere IS pretty weak in comparison, and I'll be moving to Vegas 4.0 +DVD when I gather the cash.
However for now all I have to work with is Premiere, and I'm wondering how premiere will handle nondrop frame tc, in a drop-frame project. Will it just throw the project length accuracy off or will it effect it in a more severe way...ie audio creep?

Sorry, that was a typo. The problem you will have in premiere is judder frames. You will have to adjust cuts accordingly.

Per drop-frame, non drop frame, you pretty much need drop frame because unless you use DV Filmmaker to make a 24 or 23.97 fps file, Premiere needs to think the footage is regular 29.97 and you must watch for cuts of judder frames.

I don't see non-drop frame doing anything but screwing up timing and audio sync which you will need to adjust for anyway.

Have I mentioned that I consider DV Filmmaker a must have if you are going to edit in Premiere? That's the only way you run Premiere at 24fps (or 23.97 more precisely).

See the FAQ at http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm for more details. A demo is there to try as well. For $95, you will save yourself much editing headaches.

Note you must shoot 24P advanced in the DVX100 for it to work.

What are judder frames? Are they the frames that are repeated to fit the 29.97fps standard? Do you mean I have to watch cuts on these frames because it'll make it more visible to the viewers if it's specifically cut on a repeated frame?

Regarding DV Filmaker- how does that work. Do I edit then output into filmaker- or run it through filmaker BEFORE editing?
Anyway I was planning on changing NLEs soon- Premiere's lack of 24p support and overall bugginess is annoying me. I was thinking about going to Vegas 4.0 +DVD, there are many enthusiastic members on here that swear by Vegas. With that suite I should be able to edit in native 24p and create real progressive scan dvds via DVD Architech right?

About the original question- I mainly was curious what settings to set, meanwhile, in Premiere while capturing 24p footage beings it records to tape with NON-drop frame time code by default.

Judder frames are when on field is from one original 24p frame and the other frame is from the next 24p - it's an artifact of pulldown. You can see it clearly on the screen.

DV Filmmaker - you process first to 23.97, edit at 23.97 in Quicktime project in Premiere and re-output using DV Filmmaker. They have a detailed FAQ of the process at www.dvfilm.com plus demo.

Per Vegas & DVD architect. Yeah baby - 24p is all yours through DVD. Sonic Foundry has a nice 24p whitepaper just for the DVX100 and how to run 24p on their web-site.

Are these "judder frames" only a problem during cuts- in other words to just avoid cutting on a jutter frame?

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

Yep, only on cuts.

24p DVD from DVX100
 

I realize that anyone who really knows the answers to my questions below probably is not a liberty to answer them, but I'll ask anyway....

Does anyone have any inside knowledge about if the new version of premiere (7.0 or Premiere Pro?) will have the ability to import the DVX100 true 24p properly and natively? Will it encode properly with the 2-3 pulldown for DVD mpeg? Will Adobe Encore be able to author 24p DVD mpeg steams?

I cuurently use REEL to author and I do not think that it allows 24p Mpeg. I know that Premiere 6.5 does not handle the DVX100 conversion properly without another piece of software. The only software that I have found that appears to work properly from start to finish with the DVX100 24p in this price range is the SonicFoundry Vegas+DVD. Are tehre any others?

My guess is you can count on some kind of 24p support the next Premiere release. How much and how well, nobody except someone under NDA can say.

As for low cost alternatives, Vegas 4+DVD is pretty much it, though you could pair Blade 2.0 with whatever package they recommend.

Unless they make some huge, and I mean HUGE changes to Premiere it's still worth going with Vegas. I've worked exclusivly with Premiere for the last 2 years and have recently in the midst of making the switch to Vegas. You wouldn't believe how much more powerfull of an application Vegas is compared to Premiere...even 24p support aside.
I'm am curious about Adobe Encore's capatability regarding 24p because I feel that'll be THE DVD authoring software to work with- especially with it's tight integration with Photoshop.
We'd have to assume that the upcomming version(s) of Premiere would have 24p support- heck seems like all it's competitors beat it to the punch. However even if the new Premiere DOES have support for 24p there's always the issue of stability. Premiere has long been known as a very buggy program...and thus the reason I'm making the switch to Vegas to begin with.