Sadly, unless I've got something set up wrong in FCP3, mine appears to be about 2 frames out of sync in 60i, 24p, and 30p. Audio appears to arrive early. I hope this is an easy and painless fix, ie. don't have to ship the cam off. Better yet, I hope Panasonic actually does something about it. It's kind of hard to tell it's out unless I step through the audio wave while watching the picture frame by frame in FCP. For those of you who don't think you have the problem (I didn't think I did) do the clap test and step through frame by frame.

Skip Hunt

Thanks for confirming/posting your findings, Skip.

Sorry for the revelation, but it may be better that it is something consistent rather than a build issue - if the latter, who knows what else could be amiss ;)

As for an 'easy and painless fix', it is not a huge problem to address in post (albeit an annoying one) if you know to expect it. My biggest complaint so far (aside from really wanting a camera that shoots in sync all on its own...) comes from not being advised of it from the start. I burnt quite a bit of time tracking it down to the less than likely source.

Thanks again,
Clayton

Yeah, I can't believe I hadn't noticed it yet. Honestly, I really don't think this is an acceptable flaw, documented or not. At first, as I was playing the test footage back, and then again as I was capturing, it looked in-sync. Not until I stepped through did I notice it. Before I begin to get all bent out of shape, can you think of something I may have setup wrong in FCP3 that could account for this 2 frame sync problem? I'm going to post this over at 2-pop as well. I can live with no AF or gain in p modes, and I can live with occassional fringe, but everything having to be re-sync'd is completely unacceptable if you ask me. What's worse is that frickin' troll is gonna love this finding. ;-)

Skip Hunt

I have used my DVX100 for 15 hours without seeing it!

My client tested for sync using both the camera to playback and a Sony DSR 30. The sync error was noted with both methods of capture. I don't think this is a very big issue. The sync is consistently off the same amount and it is easy enough to adjust for. It may require some additional rendering time depending on your NLE.

Jeff

Do you happen to know if there's a way to make FCP3 automatically adjust the audio by 2 frames for all my captures? There's a setting in FCP3 to auto adjust sync for clips over 5mins, but you can set the time to whatever you want. I wonder if it were set to "0" if it'd adjust this 2 frame issue? I guessing most likely not since I believe this has more to do with audio drift over time. The DVX's problem seems to be consistent from the get go. Any suggestions? I really don't want to have to hand sync everything I shoot with this cam.

Skip

There is no way to automatically apply a compensation during the capture phase with FCP. Sync adjust works for the drift problem. It forces FCP to count the frequency, not assume it is 48Khz. The problem with the DVX100 is that it is being recorded out of sync because of a delay in the video (probably due to some digital processing).

Jeff

<<<-- Originally posted by Skip Hunt : Honestly, I really don't think this is an acceptable flaw, documented or not ... I can live with no AF or gain in p modes, and I can live with occassional fringe, but everything having to be re-sync'd is completely unacceptable if you ask me

Skip Hunt -->>>

Hi Skip,

I whole heartedly agree - it's not acceptable given that it was not was expected upon purchase. (There in is my primary complaint with it not being documented.)

For a lot of projects, the effects are limited. Syncing selected takes from a narrative project is old habit for some. But for projects with a large amount of footage (especially in many small pieces) it would be a nightmare. Something you shouldn't have to discover for yourself no less.

So, again I am most dissappointed that the people who have picked up this camera thus far could not make the decision whether the trouble was worth it or not up front. (That is assumming it is a universal problem, - as mentioned before I think the implications are best if it is not a random build issue.)

Perhaps I ought to give Panasonic a little more benefit of the doubt. Sure would help if they would chime in on the subject...)

Clayton

Shot more hand clapping sequences in 24PA and the default 60. Used Avid Xpress DV 3.5 to view the footage, and with the audio scrub feature it appears the audio arrives before the hands clap together. But I don't know enough about Avid to check out the actual wavelength or view a graph of somekind the way other users do - could someone tell me how I could go about verifying for sure?

All in all, I'm not sure what to make of this. I do appreciate the work of those who discovered this potential issue - understanding this exists is much more valuable then having to find out later. On the other hand - and once again this is probably due to the fact that my eyes and ears are unused to seeing such discrepancies in DV yet - I really can't tell the difference just by watching alone.

Then there is this entry written by Steve Mullen over on the 2-pop AG-DVX100 forum (in a thread started by Clayton):

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-b...cgi?read=36352

Which gives me some assurance that this isn't entirely a bad thing?

Was perusing Vinson Watson's AG-DVX100 review and saw this:

"Something to remember; to allow the DVX100 a few seconds to to sync sound when you switch into 24p"

Wonder what he meant by this exactly? Will waiting for a bit after changing into one of the 24p modes help sync?

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Go : Was perusing Vinson Watson's AG-DVX100 review and saw this: "Something to remember; to allow the DVX100 a few seconds to to sync sound when you switch into 24p" Wonder what he meant by this exactly? Will waiting for a bit after changing into one of the 24p modes help sync? -->>>

Not that I am aware of. Everything I've shot in 24pa (the only mode I've used on borrowed camera thus far) has been out of sync - irregardless of how long it has sat waiting for us.

Perhaps this is referring to the "resetting" process that takes place when switching between 60i/30p and one of the 24p modes. But again, I doubt that this effects the audio. If your tests show otherwise please correct my presumptions... ;)

Thanks,
Clayton

I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter.

jeff

Jeff,
It will be interesting to hear what you friend learns from Panasonic.

Nick

I need to ask you guys is this sync problem happening after you've dropped the extra frames to go back to 24p in your NLE and does it happen in 30p as well. Also has anyone tested other cams to see how they sync up. Check this stuff out and tell me what you find and how big of a problem do you think this is. I may do an article on this.

-Vinson

It happens directly on recording I believe. As for which modes this occurs in the earliest reports included both 24p modes but now I understand it even affects the default 60. Not sure about 30p. From my limited testing it does appear to affect 60 interlaced. As far as how problematic this is I'm not so sure. Some people see the same sync problem on a few other DV cameras, and 1 or 2 frames doesn't seem that problematic to me. It is bothersome though that we weren't made aware of this potential issue however. Like everyone else, I guess we're waiting on the official word from Panasonic.

I think if you wrote an article on it, that would be great.

I'll double check, but my understanding is, my client tried all the modes. I'm not even sure he uses 24p for production, but he tested both 24p modes and the video was slow. My client does mostly commercials and training tapes. He uses the 30p and 60i modes to the best of my knowledge. But I'll check later to be sure. he also was going to call Panasonic and ask about the problem. I'll ask how that went, too.

Jeff

Probably just my ignorance again, but is this a case of unlocked audio (vs. locked audio)? Or is 1 or 2 frames too large a departure? Does the AG-DVX100 have locked or unlocked audio (thought all DV was unlocked save for the DVCAM and DVCPRO formats)?

Sorry for my speculations, just watching the mystery unfold I guess.

Unlocked audio is +/- 1/3 of a frame. It is caused by the inaccuracies of the audio clock. Unlocked audio can and will drift. The audio can start out fine, then slow, then speed up to match video again.

The problem that some people are reporting with the DVX100 is that the audio is always before the video by almost 2 frames (not the +/- 1/3 frame). I believe it is being caused by digital processing of the video signal.

Jeff

Got home and did a test using a couple of vhs case.(I didn't have a clap board). Tried it with 60, 30 and 24. Yes, I did find 1 to 2 frame out of sync starting from 60i. I used Premiere in 1 frame setting. I purchased mine from Zotz Digital about a month ago. I wonder if Brian of Zotz heard a word from Panasonic.

There's a setting in Final Cut 3 specifically made for sync problems in with the XL. It's in the audio settings I believe. I'm trying to find out what it's called but I think this may help you guys too.

-Vinson

Jeff says that FCP thing's a no go.

-Vinson

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter.

jeff -->>>

Jeff, has your client heard anything from Panasonic? I've contacted my retailer, but haven't heard anything back yet.

Has anyone received any news at all regarding the sync issue and whether Panasonic is even planning on addressing it?

thx,


Skip Hunt

Here's an explanation from Stuart English:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-b...mes;read=37154

My client got the same answer (in less technical and less specific terms) and is resigned to the audio delay anomaly with the DVX100. but if I'm reading Stuart English's explanation correctly, he seems to say that the maximum delay is 1 frame. My client firmly maintains that the delay is closer to 2 frames. He conducted his test indoors at fairly close range (6 to 8 feet from subject) and using CRT monitors.

We are getting together this weekend to compare several cameras (he has a Sony PD150 and DVX100) with my XL1S. I'll post the results Monday or Tuesday when I have time.

Jeff

Stuart English posted a response to the sync issue on other sites:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi?read=37154

Michael

It sounds like Stuart English is trying to do "damage control" on the issue of the audio sync problem/characteristic/issue.

Jeff, I will be looking forward to hearing what you come up with.... especially as it concerns the XL-1s. That may be the best "fall-back" for those of us that thought the Panny 24p may be the way to go.

Guess the old saying "may" apply here.... "If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is." I thought the Panny 24p was going to be my next cam. I may be wrong.

Thanks for the info, Nick

It would be helfpul if people who own other DV camcorders can do a similar test and see if an audio/video discrepancy exists. Unfortunately, I only have the AG-DVX100...

Maybe I can borrow one of my brother's consumer level camcorders and see.

A 1 to 2 frames delayed video is most of the time not a problem...on an analog display. In the "digital age" however , also displays have their processing delays and the bad news is that they sum up with camera video delays and both together often exeed the acceptance limits. An LCD or a plasma display easely takes 1 to two frames extra. A DLP(TI processing) takes together with the scaler processing up to 4 frames...For the purists there are surround processors available (Meridian...) to solve these problems.

For those who may have missed it, some interesting info on the sync issue at Adam Wilt's site:

http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#AVsync

(and thanks for the clarification on the audio lock/unlock Jeff, appreciate it)

Boy, Adam saved me a great deal of typing today and tomorrow. Our results testing the Sony PD150 and Panasonic DVX100 closely mirror his results. Our PD150 showed a zero field advance in 60i (with FCP and Premiere). The DVX100 results are identical.

The Canon XL1S split the difference, showing a 1 field delay in 60i and a 1 to 2 field delay in frame mode (perhaps caused by additional processing).

I have a lot more details in testing methods, microphones, decks used etc. if anyone is interested.

I don't personally find the delay objectionable or the fix, slipping the audio 1 or 2 frames. My client, on the other hand does, for two reasons. He does a lot of event work and uses 60i or 30p. He captures huge chunks of video and doesn't want the added time of rendering audio. However, if he captured in small clips it might be worse, fixing each clip.

The other reason became more apparent when he took me into his conference room. On the wall was a 50" (guessing as to size) plasma screen. The delay was much more apparent when DVX100 raw footage (non-slipped) was piped into the room. My clients question to me is how does he edit now? Does he ask his client what he's going to show it on before he edits it? What if it's a wedding and the grooms parents have a CRT and the brides parents a plasma? Does he edit two different versions? What if they get a new TV and complain that the sync is now off on the new screen? But if he doesn't make good on his product , how does it affect his reputation? I think it's getting to be more headaches than he really wants to deal with.

The DVX100 is starting to show it's lineage. It's a top of the line mini DV camera, prosumer, if you will, but nothing more. It's in the same class as the Sony PDF150 and Canon XL1S that were used in our tests. Each camera has it's faults, weaknesses and strengths. There is no one best camera in this price range and that's reality. Trying to pick a winner in those three is pointless. They are all good cameras. Find a good operator for these cameras and you've got the start of something.

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for your input. Being involved in audio/video delay matching myself since quite some time , mainly for the signal transport streams and display side problems, I am still interested in your test methods.
The only solution for the (real) problems you mention is that every step in the chain keeps perfect sync...If one plays a DVD which already has a 1 frame slip in the authoring process, played back on a DVD player with an extra 2 frames video delay, displayed on a plasma display with another 2 frames or more...we end up with 5 frames..not acceptable, but the problem is that everybody involved in the chain says "one or two frames (with my part)..nobody can hear/see that..." The only solution today is a very expensive AV processor/amplifier with lipsync settings.

non-linear editing with the panny 24p
 

Like many of you reading messages on this web page i am also trying to decide whether or not to buy this camera. I'm pretty much sold on it but my next question is what editing system should i use. Now i've heard that both panasonic and apple have worked together on developing the software for this camera. Should i buy an apple computer because of this or should i look at other systems in the same price range. I say this because i have never used an apple operating system ;only windows. I now use sony as my pc because it's a great computer and that it comes with the most current edition of adobe premier already installed. I hope to spend around $5,000 total for both the camera and the computer. Once i have the pc i will buy some kind of 24 frame rate conversion software like dvfilmmaker. Any info with this is helpful.


thanks john,

Hello John, as of right now I think only In-sync's Blade 2 software supports the advanced 24p options of the DVX100, possibly Apple's Cinema Tools as well but I have to double check on that. Otherwise Apple and Avid are still working on it. Hopefully it'll be soon and the audio-sync issue will also be addressed in both Final Cut Pro and Avid Xpress DV 3.5.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and since this is the case with the current NLEs available now, I would stick with PC, at least for the time being. You could use your Sony PC, render the advanced 24p options with DVFilmmaker, then edit in Premiere or something along those lines.

Only when Avid or Apple finally releases support for the Panasonic camcorder, then I'd make the buying decision of which NLE to go with. If however you're just wondering which platform to go with period, and you're anxious for something other than Premiere, then that's another thread entirely...

The editing forums below should help in that decision. Good luck!

About 2 frames unsync...
 

Is this 2 frames unsync constant, all the time, not "dancing"...

I mean, if so solit, you can just import meterials in "Avid" e.g. and just cut bring audio 2 frames back (or forth, I've missed it acctually, is it to late or too soon)....

But, if this 2 frames becomes 3 or 1 after e.g. 5 min. than it is a real problem.....

Sorry on my english, I hope you've understood what I ment!

V.

Basically the delays are constant and depend on the architecture (numer of frame buffers...)used for the image processing. There is a slight cadence (1 frame or less) when it concerns so called 3:2 pulled down footage. Up to two frames difference are generally accepted for video.

Thanx Andre!
 

I see....

It is just that...
I can't belive that they developed such a "high end" very "in frot of the time" (price wise, at least) gadget, with such a stupid and annoying error....


Sometimes I just get that feeling they do it on purpous!:)
They go, OK, we'll give you 24p cam, just to make you horny over these possibilities, but you can't be able to do with it n0t even a 10th of what you can do with real-price 24p cam....

WJp ae tjpse guys who come up with such ideas - some geniusses or some pure idiots who let the product with such a mistake to "go out and turn the market arround"....

Guess I'll never know...
But, as older as I get, I am kind of more and more "paranoid"---- in not beliveng a word of what those corporations are telling you and assring ou of

True 24p vs Frame-Mode
 

I own a Panasonic Japanese NTSC model NV-MX3000 camera.
It has the capability to shoot in "Frame-Mode", the same
feature as the Canon models XL-1 & GL-2 have implemented.

What is the difference between this NTSC 29.97 Frame-Mode
and true 24p ( or even 30p ) progressive scan, like the
Panasonic DVX100 has? Why is 24p better, both from a
camera technology point of view AND a director of
photography's point of view, in getting the type of shots
that they want included in his/her work. In what situations
would 29.97 Frame-Mode fail where 24p would succeed?

I'd appreciate replies containing *actual* explanations,
not comments like: "one is a fake effect and the other is
real progressive scan".

well, the DVX100 can shoot 24 frames per second, which is just like film. Though I don't think the camera has the most lines of resolution. It has a little over 500 i believe, but the XL1s has 550 I think it was? I wish i could say more, but I haven't had any experience with the XL1s

I sold my XL-1 to get one of these cameras. The 24P mode and 30P mode on the AG-DVX100 is a huge improvement over the XL-1 ( and XL-1s from other posts).

It's like the difference between VHS and S-VHS. Much sharper picture and better CCD's to boot.

No comparison.

The answer, IMHO, to your question lies in the "strobing" or flicker that exists when shooting 24p vs 60i. Film, which is the historical origin of the 24 fps paradigm, also demonstrates this strobing that occurs because at 24fps, motion cannot be adequately "stopped", resulting in a noticeable effect during pans, etc. The movie industry has become so used to this motion artifact at 24fps that they actually think it "enhances" the visual effect. If you ask the average movie goer what they see, they don't know the difference.

Now, I really don't intend to start a flame war, here. This subject has already achieved way more bandwidth than it deserves. It's an issue of dogmatic response.

The bottom line....the DP likes what he likes.....and if it's the 24 fps flicker of film he likes, that's what will be produced. For the more technically oriented imaging geeks out there, myself included, 60i makes for a much smoother action in pans and other motions.

So, take your pick, lower res 60i with smoother motion, or higher res 24p with jerky pans and stop motion. a pandemic choice.
But then, this is my .02 worth. There are many old heads in this business who will take issue with me on this...so what else is new?