Of course! 24P Normal can be edited as a pure 24P project just like any other. And yes, you could make a pure progressive-scan DVD from 24P Normal footage.

24P Advanced offers a small increase in quality when editing in a pure 24P timeline on an editor that understands 24P Advanced (i.e., Blade 2, Vegas 4.0, or FCP 4). If you're not using one of those editors, or not editing in a 24P timeline, then 24P Advanced won't offer you anything more than 24P Normal does.

Barry thank you very much for input....
Man you guys are fast..........

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Of course! 24P Normal can be edited as a pure 24P project just like any other. And yes, you could make a pure progressive-scan DVD from 24P Normal footage.
-->>>

Hi,
I think only 24p ADVANCED can give you a pure progressive-scan DVD since every frame is used, unlike the 24p STANDARD/NORMAL.

Either mode can be converted back to the original 24 progressive frames, which is what you need to make a 24-frame progressive DVD.

Both modes spread four progressive frames across 10 video fields. The only difference is in what order that spreading occurs. In 24P Normal, it is evenly spaced, at a 3:2 rate, which makes three whole frames and two split frames per five-frame sequence. In 24P Advanced, there is only one split frame per five-frame sequence.

So, to convert 24P Advanced back to the original 24 progressive frames, you simply drop one frame out of every five-frame group. To convert 24P Normal back to the original frames, you have to uncompress the video, un-split the frames, and then record out the original 24. A little more work but no less effective. There is, however, a tiny quality drop when doing it this way, since 24P Normal has to be uncompressed/recompressed, whereas with 24P Advanced you can copy the four compressed frames over in their native state.

Okay,
Thanks Barry!

Flourescant flicker when shooting 24p ?
 

OK, this is probably a silly question, but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere.

I know that when shooting PAL cameras in a 60 cycle environment that you have to worry about flickering/strobing, especially with flos.

Does this not apply to shooting 24p?

Is this because you are shooting 24p, and not 48i?

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO

If you are having issues with flourescents, simply adjust the shutter speed to 1/60.

The DVX100 defaults to a 1/50 shutter speed when in both 24P and 30P with the shutter setting in the OFF position. Simply switching the shutter ON and setting it to 1/60 should eliminate any problems with 60 cycle Flo's without killing the natural motion blur.

Thanks a lot!

Joe Kras

2-3 pulldown??
 

Am considering purchasing the DVX100. Have been reading the messages here, and found them to be of great help.

What does the term, "2-3 pulldown" refer to?

Perhaps asking that question is akin to asking how much a Ferrari costs (if you have to ask you're not ready to buy one).

Thanks.

2,3 pulldown is in reference to how the progressively shot still frames are recorded to the interlaced video.

In other words, you are shooting 24 still frames per second. But the format you are recording to is recording 60 fields per second. So you need to fill up those 60 fields. In order to fill up those 60 fields with only 24 frames, the frames are "pulled down" into a redundant recording sequence.

Here's how it works:

The first frame 'A' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 1 and field 2. The second frame 'B' is recorded 3 times corresponding to the next field 1 and field 2 and field 1. The third frame 'C' is recorded 2 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1. The forth frame 'D' is recorded 3 times corresponding to field 2 and field 1 and field 2. 2,3,2,3,2,3, etc, etc.

The only problem with this, is that the 'C' frame gets split between opposing fields. 2 and 1. Since fields 2 and 1 oppose each other, you don't have a complete frame of 'C'. This isn't an issue for standard NTSC editing or viewing. The motion looks the same as any other 24 frame acquired image pulled down for NTSC video screening. However, if you want to edit on a 24 frame timeline or transfer the 24 frame footage to another 24 frame medium, you need to recompress that 'C' frame to get it back. What Panasonic did to deal with this is offer a second 24P mode. The 24P Advanced mode uses a modified pulldown for recording. By doing a 2,3,3,2 cadence, the 'C' frame gets recorded an extra time so that it isn't split between opposing fields. 2,3,3,2 2,3,3,2, etc, etc. This solves the issue of the split 'C' frame but introduces a new and unique motion signature that is different than the normal 2,3,2,3 motion signature.

In order to work with the 2,3,3,2 Advanced pulldown cadence, you'll need a software solution that can remove the advanced pulldown and extract the 24 frames for editing on a 24 frame timeline. Once you finish cutting your masterpiece on a 24 frame timeline, you then can export the 24 frame sequence back to regular NTSC 2,3,2,3 pulldown 60i video, a 24 frame DVD, or an image sequence for HD upconversion or transfer to film.

But regardless of how it works, or which cadence you choose to work with, both get the job done.

To supplement Jon's excellent description you may find Adam Wilt's site of benefit to keep your head from spinning. It features an illustrated explanation of the DVX100's various pull-down methods as well as a broader review of the camera's features and characteristics.

Jon: Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It will take me a bit to absorb the information, but I'm sure sooner or later it will click.

Ken: Thank you for the link. That, coupled with Jon's explanation makes things more clear.

pal 24p issue
 

Sorry if im going over old territory but.....
I think I read that you can achieve [better quality] in scene file 6
[thin filmlike 24pa]especially when exporting to dvd.
I shot some sports footage recently in scene file 5, football infact,[thats soccer to those of you on the other side of the pond],Ilaid it out in a premiere 24fps timeline and used my canopus encoder to create an mpeg 2 file and exported that to dvd ....great.
So whats going to happen now if I chase this [better quality]dvd
in scene file 6.Will I need a programe like dv filmaker to pulldown my footage in PAL.[25fps to 24pa]
Just need to know a bit more on pulldown with regards pal as a lot of these posts are concerned with ntsc.
Many thanks in advance.

There is no pulldown for 25p->24p. Why would you want to?
The only reason to have your footage running at 24p is if you
are going to do an NTSC version. Just let the package interpret
the footage as 24p instead of 25p (DO NOT resample the fps).
You will need to stretch the audio though.

You can't see the difference between 24 or 25 fps. So if you
stay in PAL land, just stick to 25p!

25/24 pal
 

Thanks Rob
I was begining to wonder after 200 people had viewed my post but none until you, had responded,So to recap I can film in scene file 6 and lay that footage out in premiere.25fps timeline.
Apart from tweaking the audio that should be it.
i'll create a dvd from some more sports footage and let you know
the results.Once again many thanks for your help.

What is "Scene file 6"? I've never ever heard of that before.

Why would you need to tweak the audio if you stay at 25 fps?

Lets recap:

1. you want a 25p EUROPEAN DVD at PAL resolution: just make a 25 fps PAL project and change nothing

2. you want a 24p AMERICAN DVD at NTSC resolution: start a 24 fps NTSC project and load your 25 fps PAL footage. Change the interpretation framerate from 25 to 24 fps and stretch the audio.

Keep in mind that if you want to make a 24p NTSC DVD you
must create the correct DVD flags which Premiere can't do to
my knowledge (not sure).

But if you just want a 25p PAL DVD stick with method 1 and you
don't need to do anything. Make sure that when you render
your MPEG2 file and author your DVD you indicate that the
stream is progressive (interlacing is none or progressive).

f6[scene file 6]
 

Sorry Rob If I wasnt Precise with my description.
F6 scene cine
Is position 6 on my dvx100 which is described as follows
on page 33 of the operating instructions from panasonic.
File containing the settings suited to cine-like shooting using the progressive25p mode
{the v detail freq item onthe scene file setting menu screen is set to THIN]
thanks for your replys
Ithink I will Be ok
any other tips on 25p pal then please let me know, I will post you results of dvd soon.
regards dave

In THIN mode, there is some alliasing on a TV screen, but on a computer screen, there is more vertical resolution.

THICK mode: no alliasing on TV screen, but less resolution on computer screen.

Converting 24P standard to 24
 

Hey guys--While shooting my documentary on a couple interviews I accidentally forgot to put the cam in 24P Advanced mode (we're editing on Xpress Pro in 23.98 timeline) and shot in 24P Standard instead. The problem now of course is that we need to get this 24P standard footage into our 23.98 timeline. Can anyone recommed the best way to do this that will match the 24Advanced footage?

Also, in a couple scenarios we shot with a 2nd, 60i cam. We would also like to import this ftg into the project. Is importing into AE and then exporting at 23.98 the best solution? Thanks!

Peter

Best 24p settings
 

What settings do you guy use to make 24p look great outdoors?

Search around some older threads - it's been discussed it pretty heavy detail over the last couple of months.

24p Advanced/24p
 

So I shouldn't use 24p Advanced unless I'm putting it on film? Also, when i put it in 24p the exposure seems to be a tad darker, i usually raise it back up. Should I not do that, and leave it darker i guess to give it more of a FILM LOOK? or should i make it brighter? Does it make a difference.??

24pA isn't only for film. It's the only way to edit 24p without generation loss. It also allows you to put ~20% more onto a DVD when authored correctly.

The 24p modes set auto iris to -2 because of cinegamma. This is because it's a lot easier to get blown highlights in cinegamma mode since there's no roll off. Turn on your zebra stripes to see where highlights are blowing. It has nothing to do with "film look'', but has to do with preserving data at the higher levels. When highlights are blown, there's nothing you can do in post to get that information back, however, it's relatively easy to adjust levels back up in post.

Give the footage to someone who has a Mac and Cinema Tools. Or I think some program called DVMaker or something like that for Windows will remove the pulldown and give you 24p.

For the 60i, use Magic Bullet to get 24fps.

I heard and have seen that 24pA is actually more a "film look" than the standard 24p. Can anyone else confirm?

Definitely not. The look is identical, when edited as 24P. When edited as 60i, the 24PA is actually a little more stuttery, the 24PN is a bit smoother. 24PN motion looks exactly like film that's been transferred to video.

Editing with 24p footage
 

I'm kind of a newbie to this stuff, so I'll try to make it sound some what intelligent.

If you took footage with a 24p camera like the DVX-100 could you edit it in any NLE program and not one of the more expensive programs like Vegas or Avid and still be able to produce an outputted video with a film look?

What would be the noticeable difference in editing 24p footage in a non 24p timeline? Would some frames be missing from the final product?

j

DVX 24p footy tranfer to film
 

Ok well i'm pretty new to all of this. But how much does it cost to transfer 24p footage to 35mm, and do they put it back on a mini dv tape for you after they trasfer it?

24p to 35mm $350 - 750 per minute

they should be up rezzing your DV to HD data files

for $ they can make you a mini Dv copy of the transfer

if the final output is video - IMO you will not see any difference if you edit 24fps or 29.97 fps ..
because in the final render the 24fps would have to be converted to 29.97 so the pull down would be restored ..

it's not the editor that gives it the film look .. when you shoot 24p and it's shown on TV ( 29.97) it does have the same "flow " as when film is transfered to tape ( 24fps plus pull down = 29.97)

even 24fps DVD's the pull down is added by the player/digital projector or TV ( SD tv's cannot play 24fps they need 29.97 .. many HD plasma's can play 24fps)

you would have to choose 24p or 24pA as to which pull down you prefer ...

how does it go from 350-750??? Like I'll do it for 350 but never 750.

Mike,
You'll get the best information by directly contacting a film transfer shop. The rates are probably determined in part by the amount of color correction required, the format of the source material, etc.

Check out www.dvfilm.com

They have a rate calculator for dv to 16 & 35mm transfer.

Example: A 60 min film transfer is $16,200 or $270/min

They also have details on using the dvx100, specifically, in their faq.

Depends on the lab.

If you join indieclub.com and become a "sponsor member" ($24/year), one of the benefits is a 10% discount from dvfilm.com. That puts you down around $270/minute.

You really have to shop around to find which labs do work that you like, which ones work with your camera (for example, Swiss Effects doesn't seem to care too much for the DVX100, they prefer the PAL PD150 -- so if you're shooting DVX footage, I wouldn't send it to Swiss Effects). Other labs prefer 24P footage, dvfilm.com can work with direct 24P footage from the DVX.

WAIT-so 24p is pretty much a rip off because It doesn't show up if you put it out on DVD or Tape????????????? Whats the point then????????? Thats soooo gayy

Mike - read links at the top of this forum (Sonic/Sony 24p whitepaper, Adam Wilt etc.).

Pulldown and 24p can be confusing until you get the hang of it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Zorger : WAIT-so 24p is pretty much a rip off because It doesn't show up if you put it out on DVD or Tape????????????? Whats the point then????????? Thats soooo gayy -->>>

Don't fret... 24P is the real deal, and it looks like film motion, regardless of how you edit it or where you output it. There is no ripoff involved.

So if I take all the 24p footy i have and put into premier and edit my movie, and put it back onto my mini dv tape to take to the place to get my 500 copies it wont it will still look kind of like film.??? and no way i'm reading adam page again. Thats crazy hard to understand. No offence to him, it's just i just got my dvx100 1 week ago.

If you shoot in 24P, it will have film-like motion. No matter what editing program you use, or where you transfer it to (VHS, DVD, Beta, film, etc) it will always have that film-like look.