Coollights disappointment
 

We ordered a Coollights LED600 LED Panel and got to try it on 2 recent shoots. The concept of a portable, dimmable light is cool but we are not overly happy with the purchase. Let me explain:

1) The unit we received did not have any CTO or diffuser, although it should have been included. We were shooting with 3200K available lights and could not use our Coollights at all on the last shoot. When I email the company, they answered that they would "include them in the next order we place with them". Sure, some people have tons of rolls of gels lying around, but we don't, so now I have order one more light to get those gels or order them off the web from some other company. Not very impressive.

2) The mechanical build of the barndoor unit that slides over the LED panel is very, very loose. Like 5mm too lose, so it barely holds within the rails by 1 mm at most and I always fear it's gonna slip and fall one day.

3) Finally and most important, we could not get nice skin tones using this light as a key light. I am not an expert in light but a friend told me that LED panels output only a fraction of the light spectrum, and depending which portion it is, some colors will look flat. We tried Litepanels and got better skin tones. Not sure what the reason is.

So by and large we are not so happy ):

Francois:

Have you spoken with Richard Andrewski? He is very accommodating and helpful.

1. As far as I know, I thought all of the new shipments of the LED600 have been coming with the full gel pack, which includes the CTO and the diffuser. So you received a pack with only the minus green 1/4 and 1/2 or did not you not receive any gel pack?

2. Not sure what issue you are having with the barndoors? I have two of the LED 600s, flood and a spot, and the barndoors work fine on both. There are some small nuts and bolts that hold each door to the frame, perhaps one or two are loose and can be tightened?

3. Not sure what to tell you about the spectrum issue. I recently shot a series of interviews for a Museum and I lit them all with the two 600s and an LED 256 as a hair light. The clients were pleased with the look I obtained for them, although I will be warming up the skin tones using Color , in post. As you know, LEDs and Fluoros are not full spectrum lighting, tungsten is. When I shoot jobs that are color critical, I still tend to use my tungsten lights. But overall, I have been pleased with the interviews I have shot using the LED 600s. But everything I deliver to clients is always color corrected anyway so to me, raw footage is always just a starting point. I always shoot a gray scale card as well to give me a reference for color correction.

I hope that you are able to contact Richard and resolve your issues. I have been using the LED 600s for almost a year now and I have been very happy with the results and with Cool Lights in general.

Dan

Hello Dan, thanks for your reply!

I have indeed emailed Richard Andrewski and he is the one who told me I had to make another order to get my filters. We did get a filter pack but only the minus green filters were included. The screws are tight enough, but the rails are not.

Your point about Tungsten and full spectrum is really good, but do all LED panels render skin tones equally bad?

Here's a spectral analysis of daylight vs CoolLight 600 LED.

The yellow line is daylight.
The purple line is the CoolLight LED

Note that the energy level for the LED light starts to drop off rapidly after 600 nm, which is the deeper reds.

That might account for some of the skin tone problem, although I do use mine on occasion as a fill light for interviews in daylight situations.

My lights were among the first ordered, so no filters of any kind. I got my own set of minus green filters and any other gels I acquired on my own or just use some from my light kit.

Francois,

I got an email from a customer using same first name but a different last name in Switzerland saying they were missing the full CTO and diffuser panel. I don't have any other customers in Lausanne, Switzerland that emailed like that so I am assuming that's you operating under a different last name? Anyway, we already sent out the 2 extra filters at our expense to that person even though we didn't have to per our shipping policies for overseas customers which is clearly outlined on our Policies page.

You didn't mention item 2 or 3 above at all in that email so it seems strange to mention it here. Support for Cool Lights products takes place at Cool Lights support channels (like email or phone), not on public boards--its simply not the way any manufacturer does things. I don't know what the issue is with your barndoors but how, for instance, do you know you have them inserted correctly in the channel for them? Rather than post about this publicly wouldn't it be normal to contact us about that? People use things in unintended ways every day and its normal to contact a manufacturer if you're not sure to make sure that its all correct. Not one customer has complained that barndoors will fall or have fallen out of the LED 600 if they are inserted correctly in the channel.

As far as color rendering goes, were you using the supplied minus green filters? Were you mixing with other light? Were there several color temperatures of light mixing together? I deal with many customers every day, some of great experience and some are new to the game. Again, its common to check with us if there's some issue and see if you're using it correctly to its best strengths.

There are lots of variables and you have to understand how to use each tool to its advantages rather than disadvantages. We've certainly been quite public about LEDs and their shortcomings in our blog, on this board and on other boards as well. People get great results every day with the LED 600 but they also use them in intended ways and as their supposed to be used. Be sure you're using them in intended ways to get the best results.

Dean,

What did you use to generate the chart in your post?

Chris...

I used something called a Spectrocam. It's basic purpose is to profile printers but it can also analyze spectral qualities of light sources. At least it used to until the American version had to be "crippled" due to a pending patent infringement suit.

Hey there Dean,
I was wondering if you ever use a 1/4 CTO or something similar to warm up your led or if you think that would help in any way.

Thanks

mb

Hi Mark:

The longer I have been shooting HD and with digital, the less I have come to rely on trying to achieve the absolute look in the field. I have tried gels, warm cards and all sorts of other tricks. It seems that I am constantly flying back East or have been in Europe where my subjects have largely tended toward the pasty and white. You don't meet a lot of healthily tanned people in a blizzard in Philadelphia.

Which program do you use in post? I have found that applying color correction in FCP's three-way color corrector or using the program Color makes warming up skin tones slightly a breeze. Being a DP, I used to really want to achieve the exact look I want in the field but I find two impediments to doing this:

1. My field monitor is not accurate. Sure, it is fine for focus, composition and contrast, but color? Not even in the ball park as I suspect 98% of shooters monitors are not. An $800.00 field monitor is not and will never be color accurate and that is what most people use. I see very few shoots using a calibrated Flanders Scientific in the field. So if your monitor and camera LCD are not even close to color accurate, why try to color your subject in the field?

2. Even though I have only shot with the RED One twice, something about the RAW workflow has stuck with me, even when shooting DVCPRO HD or AVCINTRA 100. With digital and HD, you just need to shoot it in the ball park of where you want it to be. Color correction in post is almost effortless, it really has become so much easier and better quality, especially as long as you are shooting a 4:2:2 codec. If I were shooting HDV or XDCAM EX, I would be a bit more concerned about getting the color right as I shoot. But since everything I shoot is color corrected, I merely shoot a gray scale card and worry about it in post.

I have used the various grades of CTO on my LED 600s. It works pretty much as it would on any other daylight source, it does slightly warm things up.

Dan

Richard, when I sent you an email to let you know the two filters were missing, you replied within a couple hours, saying that you'd sent them "with a future order". I said this was not so good for us and never got any other email, to this day, from you. I assumed you had decided to leave with me my problem, hence the post here. I looked in your shipping terms and could not find the paragraph about missing items. Now if you mailed me the missing filters thank you and I will of course report back here when we get them.

I did not mention the loose engineering of the rails for the barndoor unit (yes, I place them correctly in the rails) nor the problem with skin tones because I assume these are not things you can fix. But if you can tell me whether physics allows us to correct the drop after 600nm so as to get better skin tones, please let me know.
Thank you!

Hi Mark...

I generally shoot it straight and do any color grading in post. Most of the things I do are in the real of documentary/nature/reality. Most important to me is having the additional light match existing light, and that's usually daylight balanced situations.

Dan & Dean,
Thanks for your input, having just bought my camera package I am doing the research on lighting and looking into the cool lights leds and kino faux's. I will pick up a couple of tungsten fixtures as well but want to go daylight balanced as much as possible which has led me to look into the cheaper alternatives to kino flo and lite panels. I guess I should start my own thread instead of hi-jacking this one.

mb

This is a fantastic graph! A few questions if you permit:
1) How does the graph look like for Litepanels?
2) If you add a filter, does it change the drop off after 600nm?

I don't have a Litepanel to test, so I can't provide a reading on that. Sorry.

As for filtering to improve the spectral falloff after 600 nm, that would be counterproductive.

To improve deficiencies in a light's spectral characteristics, you have to reduce the output of more energetic portions of the spectrum to be equalized with the the weaker portions of the spectrum.

As a result, overall output is reduced. In this case it would be dramatically reduced, with only a slight improvement in overall color rendition.

These are some of the limitations that you must endure in order to reap the benefits of LED lights, not having full spectrum is one of them. I have found in most casual situations, people look fine under my LED 600s and LED 256. However, if I were shooting a person who was high profile or a person where color accuracy was of paramount importance, I would light them with my Arri kit.

There are no perfect lights and everything is a compromise. I have tested the LitePanel 1x1 and while it is a nice light, I found that the color temperature shifted considerably when the dimmer was engaged. I feel that the Cool Lights are a better value for my needs. The Lite Panels are built nicer and feel nicer but you are paying for it. It is nice to have choices. If I had unlimited budget, I would have a full HMI kit but at about $15k-$20k for an interview kit, that is out of my price range.

Dan

This is old news. Maybe it might not be if you're a "New Boot" but, that's what site search is for. Use "full spectrum LED" for example as a search term. You'll see me right there in practically every thread that comes up talking about this issue proactively. Despite LED spectrums, we see lots of great results every day from stuff we do and things that customers show us and we post in our gallery. I just don't see the issues. So if you are having issues, it is best to perhaps rethink what you are doing and how you are doing it and test, test, test until you find the right combination that makes you happy. And no, adding a tungsten colored filter is not going to improve the spectrum, that just takes out some blue and makes it more yellow colored to match other tungsten lighting. There is no other inherent reason to use a CTO filter IMHO.

You use each tool to its advantage and don't try to make it into what it isn't. From Caves to Cars is my motto for this light. You are hardly going to take along a tungsten kit spelunking in a cave with a huge battery or generator for example. Nor would you take along a Kino Flo diva, inverter and car battery either. You'd use something like the LED 256 or 600 which is perfectly suited to this and can be as self contained as possible. If you are traveling India doing a Yoga video, living out of one suit case, here's your light. If you're Dan Chung or John Gyovai traveling in the third world, making videos in impoverished areas without great power plug options, here you go. ENG use? You bet. Several scattered network affiliates as well as some of the Fox Sports news network agrees and thinks the LED 600 is well suited for ENG use. And plenty of other places where we can use it to its greatest advantage which is portable, light, self-contained, battery powered and has most all of what you need with it including a minus green which I am not aware of another LED panel that includes that.

For those that have been around since the LED 600 was born, just before and after--plenty has been said, mostly by me, right on this site and others, about that daylight LEDs aren't full spectrum--including the CL-LED600. No daylight LED is and I have yet to find a high CRI daylight LED. My guess is that when they do finally appear, and they will at some point, they will be so expensive as to not be usable. And it will still be a simulation of full spectrum just like a flo or HMI bulb is at this point. Not real full spectrum like daylight, tungsten or carbon arc.

We've also talked about what you have to do to make a more full spectrum LED light in the meantime which generally involves RGB LEDs or at least bi-color mixing. Future Cool Lights fixtures will use bi-color mixing method as we felt that to be the best for now considering all things. We will still have an all daylight panel though as there is a place for that and will continue to be a place for it.

Here's a few links you can find from past threads on the subject, so no one is trying to hide anything on this subject:

Before LED 600 release:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lights-10.html


After LED 600 release:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...ed-lights.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lo-vs-led.html


And on our own blog we've been frank as well:

http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/72

And talking about CRI in LEDs and how it can be improved in future fixtures:

http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/199

I frankly don't know another manufacturer that provides more information than we do--with which to make intelligent choices. Perhaps too much information, but you can hardly say anyone is hiding something here.

The LED 600 is super popular at this point, draws lots of positive comments and mainly because we do set expectations beforehand. Also we price this where we think it should be priced. Not at about 4 times the price like a 1x1.

As far as spectrums go, I would wager that the Litepanels 1x1 would have about the same spectrum as an LED 600 with minus green on it. Would be interesting to see in any case.

well put richard.

as a professional gaffer with blondies and dedos and everything in between i puchased 2 600's. i must say they are the handiest lights i have (ok.... apart from the dedos).

have used them at some stage on every shoot i have done.

once you work out their limitations (which every light has) you wont look back.

have had nothing but good comments from the dop's i light for.
(needless to say i take all the credit)

cheers
ian

Hehe, great to hear you're still out there giving them hell Ian. What would you say is the most common use you use them for on film sets. And are you guys mostly still using film or more digital these days?

hi, R

have been lighting for the full range of cameras.
"van diemans land"... shot on red by ellery ryan
did all the campfire scenes for that one.

a couple of tvcs where they used the canon 5d it is
becoming quite popular.

used the 600s for lots of car shoots great inside and out
especially being able to dim it

one dop likes me to use it instead of poly to bang a bit of fill on the faces (puts a sparkle in the eyes)....works great.

especially like the venetion blind effect (when you close up the barndoors) on the background of interviews dops love that
saves me getting the dedo out with a gobo on it.

there is a +7 green spike according to the colour temp meter,
but to be honest i have never seen it on the monitor and i have worked with some picky dops......
shooting on film i would put in the minus green filter just to be safe
but on video i just cant see it.

all in all i am very happy with them.

i was shooting outside one night running on batt (12v lead acid)
they run it for about 3 hours...amazing.. any way looked into the led and noticed some leds had gone out...turns out a moth had landed on it and was madly making love to the leds....i laughed so hard they had to cut and do another take........

cheers
ian

Funny another guy from Australia was telling me about his panel being covered by moths. They do love bright light.

Anyway, that's what I was curious about--were you ever having to use the minus green much in that kind of work you're doing.

That is an interesting effect with the barndoors--great shutter pattern. I'd like to say I planned it that way ;-) but I won't. We'll call it a happy, unintended feature.

hi mate,

have lit for almost all the formats and cameras available.

although i always offer up the minus green filters to the dop's,
i have never been asked to put it in. we do a bit of backward and forward to the monitor to check the look of the picture and we do not even see the green spike such as it is.
being from the old school if i was working with film i would put in the minus green filter just for my own peace of mind.

cheers
ian

the moths down here are really something....not a wise move to interupt them when they are making love to your led..............

Thanks Richard and Ian for informative posts.

mb

Received missing filters - thanks!
 

Richard, we have received the two missing filters this morning. Thank you very much!
As for price and portability I think clearly yours are the best bang for the bucks.
We will try and find a way of warming them faces up in post.

hi francois,

can i reccomend ...lee filters 188 cosmetic highlight to warm up the faces

it is 1/4 cto with 1/4 white diff it also gets rid of the green spike....dont ask me how but it works...

i know of tv talent who wont work without it.
i use it on my flouros and leds.

cheers
ian

Thanks for your comments Ian, Mark and Francois.

Ian, is that filter commonly used?

If we take this down to the basics of whats happening there, what you are really saying is you bring the color temperature down to about 5000K. The next question will be how do they white balance in this case? Do they balance to 5000K or 5600K. If 5600K, I could understand the slight warming of the faces, if they balance at 5000K, its hard to see what it would accomplish.

Ian, are you using the sleeve version?
Rosco | Fluorescent Lighting Sleeve/Tube | 110084014805-E188

We recently ordered 4 Fluorescent lights (sorry Richard, I had to go elsewhere as we needed these ASAP) and this seems like they might be a good solution.

Actually I just looked at the swatch and it seems more like the 1/4 minus green we provide. What's the difference I wonder?

hi guys,

i buy it by the roll..more versatile that way. because i dont use it all the time putting the sleeves on and off would be a pain.
you can get it by the sheet which would be cheaper

i introduced a couple of dop's to it and now they wont let me light without it.

i only tend to use it on the talents key and fill.

i think they white balance at 5600 then we filter up.

i have mainly been using it for interview situations but have used it on drama productions.

needless to say if i am lighting tungstan i tend not to use it i just use half or full white diff.

cheers
ian

minus minus
 

I got my 600s before they came with gels. Bought a roll of minusgreen and sat down with a couple DPs and a shaft of sunlight, a kino diva and a cool lights 4 bank fluoro. we went back and forth comparing the 600 with various levels of minusgreen. In the end we all agreed on the best gelling for color match and while i forget exactly, i believe it was 3 sheets of 1/8 minusgreen on the flood and 2 sheets of 1/4 and 1 sheet of 1/8th on the spot. (don't quote me, that could be way off). Once we decided on the color I gaffed the gels to the barn doors and have never taken them off. If i want warming and whatever i slide it down behind the barn doors, behind the minusgreen gels.

With the minusgreens in place, I think skintones look way better. Is it possible the "warmth" you are talking about is because the green spike is overwhelming the other colors without the minusgreen filter? Its not that there is a lack of red (unless your skin is on fire) so much as I think there is too much green. The cart shows that too. If you slap on enough minusgreen, the green comes down to "normal" levels and the reds are allowed to shine.

Because my minusgreens are taped to the doors, the Gaffers and DPs i've worked with dont think of the fixture as being gelled. One DP in specific approached the 600s with a strong predetermined bias that they were nasty, green and ugly lights. He refused to use them at first, then during a break asked me in a smartass voice to point one of my "ghetto panels" at the female lead so she'd look more like an alien. I had one ready with a 12v battery on the legs like a sandbag. I carried it over before he could react and flicked it on. There was a really long silence as he circled around her getting closer and closer, looking at the fixture, looking at the light as it cast on his hand... It was like watching a monkey examine a television. He never stopped calling them "ghetto panels" but called for them over and over again through the shoot. Rumor has it he bought his own pair.

To ME, without the minusgreens, i don't care for the fixtures at all. Once you add the minusgreens, it loses a bit of light but becomes infinitely more versatile and I think more flattering. We use it for fills on faces all the time.

Thats purely my opinion. If you need the extra light, the green spikes might be worth it to you. I like how the fixture can serve both masters.

Regarding the barn doors... can you post a picture? Something funky is going on there. I have zero fear of the barn doors coming off mine.

cheers!

First of all let me say that Richard at Cool Lights has always been more than helpful and builds fantastic products for the price. Secondly, be aware that LED's often require a bit of messaging when dealing with skin tones, it is just the nature of the beast.

With everything you give up something to get something. With LED's you gain the advantage of weight and excessive heat and power requirements of tungsten but give up the need to add a bit of minus green in some situations.

Paul Hudson
Lizardlandvideo.com
Phoenix Video Production

I just received my Cool light 256 today in Singapore and I kinda like it. The 256 so is oh SOOO bright. Easily double of the Sony LBP (that is an onboard cam LED). Only thing is I can't have 2 gels with the barndoor but I think i can solve that. It would come in very handy to enhance bedroom lighting. I agree more gels are required to get that "look". Time to look for some...

Anyway, thanks for the support Andrew. I'm a happy customer!

That 'minus green' is something I've come across. That's all fine and dandy for the talent in the glow, but the CC turns those in the background a nasty shade of magenta, something I never experienced with my tungsten halogen cam light.

tom.

huh?
 

I think we must be talking about different things, Tom. This is a rosco gel for the light, not a gel for the camera. After you apply minusgreen to the light, it no longer has a color spike and looks like a nice, pretty daylight source. I think what you must have experienced is a minusgreen filter for the camera which, yes, would make the background magenta.

With minusgreen gels on my cool lights led 600s, they match very well with other daylight sources.

Yup, no issues with minus green gels on lights like that, must have been something else.

glad it all turned out ok and sorry to be confrontational but in fairness he was just sharing his experience with a supplier/manufacturer which is what everyone has a right to do at dvinfo, whether its canon, sony or any other supplier big or small..