Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Christopher's gamma settings are pretty sweet, although I chose MEDIUM over HIGH for standard dark blacks. If you want to see what a CX900 or AX100 looks like out of the box, select OFF for PP, and watch the lows simply vanish into darkness.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Oh, and does the face detail reduction happen even with face detection off but AF on?

Wonder what kind of convoluted trickery is being done in the firmware code to achieve this undesired effect. Running the raw data through the detection / AF algorithm in "series" not in "parallel" and before data compression? Cheaper processing circuit?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I can't turn of facial recognition, that option is greyed out, wether I am entering the menu with the A/F on or off. I just know when I see the BOX, I should shut off the A/F. Box = softening of skin tone. But seriously, if I getting a facial lock, I don't want it to drift off, so it makes sense to turn A/F off.

Anyone know how to toggle off the facial rec feature?

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hey Paul, Face Detection only works in Auto Focus mode, and only through the optical zoom range...
As soon as the camera moves into Clearview (or digital zoom) face detection is disabled.
To set Face Detection On/Off, set the camera to auto focus mode and ensure you're within the optical zoom range and the menu option will become active and you're then able to change it...
If you're in the menu and you zoom from optical to clearview zoom, you'll actually noticed the Face Detection option become greyed out...

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Thanks Rob, that worked.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

This "posterization" thing is exactly what I discovered when I demoed the first AX-100. Several people came right back and told me that they had not experienced it. I then preordered an X-180, which was a disaster right out of the box, so I sent it back. After reading some very favorable reviews on the X70 after it was released, I decided to take a flyer. I'm fairly happy with it, but, as everyone has discovered, it shares that highlight thing and you have to really be careful where and how you shoot it. I had an X-200 preordered, because Sony convinced me that that model would be the answer to my needs, but I have since decided to hold off on it because I am growing weary of being a "crash test dummy".

I know that it's apples and, well, some really rare fruit :), but I'm ordering a Red Dragon system and I'll use the X70 for plinking around.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

James, what were the issue(s) with the X180 if I may ask.
I'm looking at that or the X200, but I would prefer a constant iris through the zoom, which I think only the X200 offers (F/1.9)

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I don't think you will get constant F stop through the zoom on the X200 either Rob...My XDCAM EX3 dropped off as focal length increased in exactly the same way as my PMW-300 does.

Effectively, most of the cams in this area of Sony's range have near identical lenses mounted on the front, detachable or not. I could be wrong...

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Rob,

It might not be at all indicative of the product, but mine had more issues than I could count.First, not a defect, except in design thought, was the fact that to change your shutter speed a long series of screen touches was necessary. That alone was a deal breaker for my work. The camera worked great for 30 minutes, then shut itself off, when I finally got it to come back on, menus would drop off the screen and no buttons would function. Several times, when it wasn't shutting itself off, it would refuse to shut off. I had to remove the battery to shut it down. I spent an hour on the phone with a very helpful Sony Tech, who threw his hands up and told me to return it. There happened to be a Sony Technical person at the air show that I was shooting, he looked it over and gave up after 30 minutes.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

That sounds very much like a defective unit to me but on the shutter speed control it's hard to believe the control is that poor, especially for this class of camera. On my EX1R and before that the FX1(consumer variant of the Z1 HDV camera) including many of the far cheaper compact AVCHD Sony Handycams I have owned, controlling shutter speed can be done using only a knob or wheel and never on the touchscreen.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I agree. I assumed that I was missing some obvious shortcut to the shutter, but the gentleman I spent so much time with was just as surprised as we are. He researched it and called me back to say, the long and drawn out menu routine was the only way to adjust the shutter speed. I'm racing throughout the air at 200 knots, shooting a jet one minute and a propeller driven aircraft the next, that ridiculous regimen would never work. The Sony guy did tell me that the then soon to be released X200 had the shutter adjust technique that you mentioned, and so did my old XHA1, common sense.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I had looked at the X160 as an upgrade from my NX5U but there were so many things that I did not like about the controls I did not bother. Why Sony have changed from the nice set of manual controls of the past is a mystery to me. The only thing I would like that the NX5U does not have is touch focus, newer sensors and 60P recording in XAVC. The FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 still have all the controls yet Sony remove them on a higher level camera !!! I am talking about buttons that immediately set you into the adjustment mode for iris, gain and shutter that are easily controlled by ring or wheel.


Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

well, hell. maybe a used ex1r is still the way to go unless you need 4k right now

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Exactly Ron. I was certain that it was just my inexperience with the camera and that there was a quick, logical work around for the settings, but the very helpful gentleman in the Sony Tech department and I, incredulously, discovered that there were no quick and logical steps. The 200 is supposed to be back to what we would expect, and I have downloaded the manual for it and believe that to be true at this point.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

The JVC HM600/700/800 series have the best thought out shutter selection possible. There is a right left up down center select on the side above the switches. Up/down varies the shutter speed, and right left adjust the EV+/- when in auto. The center button toggles 1/60 set shutter off and on, so besides being able to do anything up or down manually, you can get back to 1/60 instantly at any time!

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

That sounds like a great interface. As we've said, hard to understand what Sony is thinking. A quick conversation with any of us out in the field would tell them that all of this was a bad idea.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Being able to slightly increase/decrease things like gain makes sense for quality, but the old standard 3 position toggle is much better for fast paced things like ENG.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Don't know if anyone is interested but I picked up a couple of step up step down rings to try out on a Sony VCL-HG0872 zoom thru wide angle adapter that's been sitting on the shelf for some years. It caught my eye, much like the Fujinon adapter did and it got me thinking again... "I wonder if that will work on the x70?"

The step up ring is a 62-77mm ring and the step down ring is a 77-72mm. The reason these two rings were required was to reach past the extended rear flange ring on the back of VCL-HG0872, see last pix. These two rings when mounted clear the diameter of the extended flange by about 1mm all round. I think this flange ring was designed to protect the rear element should the lens be placed back end end down onto a flat surface.

The Sony VCL-HG0872 zoom thru wide angle adapter was originally released for the Sony Z1 HDV Hi-Def camcorder. It's a quality 4 element 3 group piece of glass. Was about $750 if memory serves me right. The Z1 camcorder had a 72mm screw in front thread with a recessed front element so the flange ring wasn't a problem. With the x70 though you can't use a single 62-72mm step up ring because it won't reach the threads on the back of the adapter. By using the two rings listed above the combo works very well indeed. First tests are showing minimal curvature and pretty even sharpness across the field of view. In fact I can see it being used quite often. The only 'con' I guess is its weight, 550 grams so it's no lightweight but with the left hand under it it's pretty comfortable to use.

I've attached a few pix of how it all goes together. The second last pix has the lens backed of a couple of turns so that I could show the adapter model details. It actually has a four rotation engagement so very secure when mounted. Most filters have two full rotations of engagement. The last pix shows the extended flange ring that necessitates the two ring solution.

There are also a couple of short MP4s, (2 x 15secs, 17MB) that can be downloaded from:

www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/9pe65e

The above clips originated as 1080i AVCHD and have been converted to 1280 x 720 25p for upload sake so not the best quality but they will give you an idea on the quite usable extra FOV gained by using a VCL-HG0872.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Very nice, Chris.

You and Paul have been so helpful in getting everything possible out of this cam. I ordered it Monday and have to wait until next Monday for its arrival due to the inclement weather in NY. :( Patience, Tom, patience!

A few questions:

Is the mic you're using similar in length to the Rode NTG-3 (25.5cm)? I want to mount that mic and hope it won't intrude into the shot. Even with the WC?

And, I think I read somewhere that you found some rubber o-rings to make it fit the holder. (Or was that someone else?) Please forgive my asking again if you've answered it, but how are you holding your mic in there?

Apparently I can buy the VCL-HG0872 used for around $100. But since it's a bit heavy, and requires all the adapters ... is there something lighter out there with similar image quality and budget (used of course)? Or, would you choose this particular one for the X70 even if you didn't have it already?

Thanks.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Tom ~

The mic is a Panasonic AJ-MC700P which was the standard issue mic on the Panasonic DVC Pro 50 and P2 HD cams. They are actually manufactured by RAMSA which is Panasonic's Pro Audio division. I had three of them floating around from the days when all our kit was DVC Pro 50 so I thought I would check one out on the x70 and it performs beautifully. It should! They were a high spec mic and cost a fortune then which was years back.

They are basically the same size, just a touch wider but a bit shorter than the Sony ECM-XM1 that comes on the FS700 and a number of other Sony cams. They are 5.5" long in the body and just over 0.75" in diameter. I had a number of the Sony neoprene mic sleeves lying around so used one of those and it's a pretty close fit so stayed with it. It fills the gap between the mic body and the inner rubber mount in the mic holder just about spot on. Physically it is much closer to the Rode NTG-1 in overall size. Nowhere near as long and directional as the NTG-3.

No I didn't mention the 'O' rings but I see no reason why a solution based around those couldn't be worked out. My old favorite solution was to find a black mouse mat made of similar material to a wet suit and cut a square out of it to wrap around the mic body. That usually worked very well. The other trick was to criss cross a thin rubber band along the mic body before you put the windshield on. Do that and you will hardly ever have a windshield fall off and get lost or damaged.

If you look further back through these posts you will see my post relating to the smaller lighter Fujinon WCV-82SC which is a .82 zoom through wide angle adapter. I also outlined the method I used to mount it. I find both adapters work well but that the Sony has got me being a tad wider at .80 and it has less distortion than the Fujinon. Not saying the Fujinon is bad not at all but I think I will be using the Sony more often than not in spite of its size and weight. In full zoom through adapters I don't know anything else that works.

I think Paul was using one of these with step rings to good effect. Maybe he can chime in with his experience re that solution.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/652920-REG/16x9_Inc_169_HDWC8X_82_169_HDWC8X_82_EXII_0_8x_Wide.html

There probably are other solutions out there but unless Sony comes up with a specific unit for the x70 I'll stick with these two for now.

Pix of comparative lens sizes and the mics. You can see the neoprene sleeve on the Sony one.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

For those looking for a good, short, pretty inexpensive (I paid about £100) and easily available on-board shotgun mic for the PXW-X70, the AT875R might be a very good choice too. I bought one a while back for my C100 as I found my Rode NTG-3 way too long/getting into frame on wider shots. Nice and hot, but not as directional as my NTG-3. Will give good clean sound - well as clean as any on-board mic is capable of giving in that very imperfect position...

I've promoted using O rings to bulk out the width of mics in camera mic clamps at various stages on here a while back - can't claim to have invented the solution though! The mousemat type material idea is also something I've tried with good effect in the past too (in my case I cut up an old soft glasses cases/pouch).

But if you really want the best suspension for any on-board mic, I'd always recommend the Rycote Invision Video suspension system. I took the Sony mic clamp off my EX3 (and again now off my PMW-300) to use this instead - but it might be a bit big and bulky on top of the rather small PXW-X70!!!

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Is anyone on this thread shooting with a PMW300 and a PXW_X70? I am thinking of buying an X70 and a second for my 300 and wondered if anyone had any observations. Hockey playoffs in the spring usually bring my American network neighbours up ( if les Canadiens do well) as it did last year. The PMW 300 is a sensational camera for sports and scrums but it would be nice to have a second angle as a "value added" incentive for them. Lots of great material on this thread and it really helps to hear true hands on experience.
Thanks
Brian

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

the AT875R comes with two o-rings actually. even cheaper are the sony 1-542-296 (the first version was made by sony but the second version was the AT875 actually with the only difference that had a cord built-in). the sound is the same as the AT875R for both.

the problem with the X70 is the position of the mic-holder that's too low. so a dead cat like the one in the Christopher Young's set-up will enter the frame at the wide zoom and with a wide attached then it will DEFINITELY enter the frame, unless we (in here) wanna talk about "looks" without actually shooting. and that would be fine with me."looks" are important too.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris, I use an MC700 as well, with the same Sony rubber sleeve. I use the windscreen off of my MC900 though.

The EXII and your Sony WA are best IMO, because they allow the little snout of the X70 to nestle into the sweet sharp center glass of the converter. My EXII is practically impossible to pick out in shots, even when at full telephoto at night. I am very happy with it,a nd the weight is really not a factor to me. The handgrip is so large and comfortable that you don't notice, especially if you have used slightly larger 3 chip cameras such as the HM600 type.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Found another PXW-X70 shooting test video on YouTube today.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

A lot of users are aiming for a finished look in-camera, but I'm still experimenting with shooting flat and adjusting in post. Here's where I am so far on that. This has excerpts from a recent longer piece for a community art center with the X70 - you'll hear jumps in the music from the cuts.

XAVC 1080p60, transcoded to ProRes 422 in Catalyst Browse and edited in FCPX.
Exposure was manual: gain -3db, shutter 60, lens always wide open. Next time I’ll probably put Gain at 0 so I can shoot with shutter at 125.
I used Paul Anderegg’s latest color correction settings for ITU709. They worked great.
I used the scopes in FCPX to adjust exposure/curves and added saturation and a touch of sharpening. I wouldn't go so far as to call it grading, but I really enjoy the creative aspect of working with the image in post.

Settings I used:

Black Level at max: +15
Gamma (and Color Mode) ITU709 - I’m liking it better than Cinematone if going for flatter highlights
Black Gamma also at max: High, +7
Knee: it’s difficult to get flat highlights on the camera. Really low Point and Slope at the same time give weird neon electric looks to anything in the frame that is above about 85 IRE. So I’m still experimenting with one low and one higher. Some of this was shot with Point at 92.5% and Slope at -5, some with Point at 80% and Slope at -1. I am still not totally satisfied with these and still testing.
Saturation -2
Color Phase +1 (per Paul Anderegg settings)
Detail Level and Crispening - what can I say, I like sharp. Both at +2 and I still added a hint of sharpness in post.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Very nice, David. I really liked that one.

(Also a big fan of detail, else what is the point of high definition?)

Andrew

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Looking good! How can a camera of this price produce these images. A few years back a lot of us would have killed for these sorts of images out of our multi-thousand $$$$ cameras. Keep up the good work DD:)

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

increased detail produce more pan and tilt blur. just like the EX1 . but on EX1 was less visible because the resolution was lower

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Wow - thanks for the kind words. My next subject is totally different - a nephew in a state swim meet - again, weird mixed lighting. Looking forward to trying the Clear Image zoom a bit but will probably use a monopod as well.

Meanwhile that "other" forum has now switched from saying the X70 can't get any detail in the images to saying that it doesn't even really shoot 10-bit 4:2:2 because someone can't see any difference between the 50mps XAVC and the AVCHD. Yep, supposedly Sony is lying and ripping us all off. Sheesh - I think I'll just go shoot.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Yes, I have seen those posts. Both of those strong opinions are from a single person each (different folks). I think they can safely be ignored.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

That same poster is trying to claim that you can't shoot run and gun interviews using
manual controls on a camera because there 'isn't time to change iris and focus' and
that the X70 with its face detection is what you need to use. I think it's safe to say that
you may want to take what he says with a grain of salt.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I was trying to be less specific and more diplomatic, but. . .yeah.

So I was looking at the manual. . .do I understand correctly iris can be assigned to that little dial and focus controlled at the lens? So the only thing not on a "ring" is zoom? I can live with that.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Josh,

Yeah, I probably should have been more diplomatic. I get annoyed too easily
when some people start making claims like 'somehow I doubt you have any
experience' or 'you obviously don't shoot sports' to me, when they have no clue
what I do. Just because someone isn't fast enough to use manual controls
on a run and gun interview doesn't mean no one else can do it either....
sports shooters have been doing it for years. Sure face detection
can be handy to have sometimes, and I've used it on my FS700 before.
But I certainly can and do use all manual on most of my interviews, even run
and gun sports interviews despite the fact that some people think it can't be done.
And I would tend to doubt the claim that Sony is not giving you 50 mps XAVC as well.
Just because someone can't see the difference is NOT proof that the camera doesn't do it.
I'd certainly need a lot more proof than 'it doesn't look any better than AVCHD' before
I'd start calling Sony a liar on that one.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Actually, the lens ring can be set to either Zoom or Focus and there is a manual/auto focus toggle button right below the switch.

The little dial below that toggle can control Iris, Gain, or Shutter by just selecting from those three buttons. And, on the screen it shows the settings on all three and highlights the currently selected one. This all assumes you're in manual.

My biggest exposure thing is that I'm really accustomed to the waveform on my Canon XF100, and the X70 only has a histogram - I'm still adjusting to that.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

to Gabe: I know, I know. But just like with Craigslist ads, you learn to read between the lines and judge whether the information is worth even considering given where it's coming from.

I wish there were more anecdotal evidence about this cam, and reviews. I've found a few but they seem very. . .uh. . .sterile? More like "here the features this cam has" vs "this is what's good about it, this is what's not so good."

To Dave: thanks for the info. In a typical scenario (for me at least) you touch gain and shutter hardly at all, it's zoom/focus/iris that get the most frequent tweaking throughout a day. So probably leaving dial on iris and lens ring on focus would get me through most situations.

I have to ask, though I feel I shouldn't. . .does "iris" actually control exposure/f stop like any other camera? I say this because there is a prosumer Sony cam I've used a few times (NEX 30 maybe?), which has a separate control for aperture/iris/fstop vs exposure. I still have not figured out how it works exactly. . .iris seems to change actual image brightness not a bit, manual says it is for "controlling depth of field" (a really weird way to describe an iris, in my opinion. . .I would consider that more of a side effect with primary function being to allow more or less light in), while the exposure control actually changes image brightness. Very strange way of working, to me. So does the X70's iris work like it's supposed to?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Josh, yes, the Iris is just lens aperture. It does control exposure (and of course depth of field). In fact, the Iris readout on the lcd and viewfinder actually shows the aperture and it even updates on the fly as you zoom.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Great! Thanks.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Huh? Codec fraud??? LOL!

So far I've had incredible, almost one-click green screen results with the X70 on Premiere/Ultra Key plugin. And this with a pop-up green screen and only two "cheap" 300 W CFL bulbs from Home Depot. XAVC-L 50 works great for me in Premiere Pro. It's worlds better than my old Canon DSLR's codec, which made green screen impossible (block artifacts!). It certainly must be 10-bit 4:2:2 50mbps. If not, someone will surely find out and blow the whistle with proof.

Some people (mainly on other forums) who claim that XAVC-L "just doesn't work" seem to be a bit confused, and perhaps experiencing "new adopter woes." XAVC-L is a professional level codec and won't work in iMovie, etc. This codec is set to become a new industry standard ... but the facts that Sony hasn't (a) made this codec more accessible to developers on Mac/Windows, or (b) added the X70 to its XAVC Workflow Guide yet (http://www.sony.ru/res/attachment/fi...7492960962.pdf), are a bit bewildering, though.

But consistent with the other (firmware) loose ends that need to be tied up on this cam!!

Josh, I totally agree with you:

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Let me ask you guys this: I am used to shooting and have done quite a bit of post with the EX1. Including green screen (had some trouble on some shoots, most of the time it's fine). I don't do broadcast work at all (thus far) and have only DP'd one green screen shoot ever (that stuff above is stuff I edited but didn't shoot). Also don't do aggressive grading except MAYBE on my own shorts (which I have not been doing lately). Do you think I would have a reason to touch that codec vs the less robust/smaller file size/easier to deal with ones?

Another thing that would be great to see is a "higher end" shoot with this cam. . .a well lit interview or something along those lines, instead of the more ENG/available light type shoots.