Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

If anyone is interested the X70 got a big workout yesterday at a conference day. I thought it would be a good opportunity to try it out in a serious work environment. It was one of the three cameras we used on the day.

Like most conferences there were speakers, breakout sessions, and plenty of socializing. The venue used to be an old railway workshop. It has glass skylight panels along its roof so again a real mix of lighting and lighting levels from low artificial light in the adjoining seminar rooms to quite bright daylight down the centre of the venue. All in all the X70 did a pretty respectable job. The greatest joy was working with something so small and light.

This clip comprises a variety of shots from the days shoot, if you get bored easily don't download it as it's about 12 minutes worth and about a 186MB download . It was all shot AVCHD 1920 50i @ 24-mbit as per the clients request. For this upload it was reduced down from 1920 to 1280 x 720 and rendered to 50p @ 2000kbps to maintain the more natural smoothness of the original 50i footage.

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/x46exg

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Ahh. Yes. I remember that venue.

Liked the anecdote about the Window swirling.

Does the picture from that camera seem a bit soft to you?

Andrew

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Not to me. I wouldn't want it any sharper. If I shoot 50-mbit 50p and then render to 50p it does look a bit sharper so bare in mind that in this instance this was an 24-mbit AVCHD 50i to 50p render and 50i to 50p is one of the worst conversions you can do.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

UPDATE: with many apologies, I have withdrawn my earlier video from YouTube as it appears I got confused during my testing (due partly to the hoards of test clips I had in my bin, and partly maybe to me being decrepit)

That very quiet beeping noise you could hear when I had the mics in a silent room under a pillow WAS in fact being recorded by the PXW-X70 itself. It stops when you stop recording and starts when you start.

The Canon XF200 did NOT in fact hear the sound. It is being generated by the X70 internally (you can't hear it with ear up against the camcorder). This is weird and annoying (I am re-uploading the video but it goes under a new URL, YouTube doesn't let you replace videos as such)

I also wonder if the X70 I have on review is broken in some way (it went through several reviewers before me). For a start, the internal mics don't work at all regardless of setting.

But worse, both XLR channels pick up slight electronic crackles and noise as you handle the mic (tried various ones) even with the handle volumes set to 0.

And if the Channel 2 input is set to Mic or worse, Mic + 48V, after a few seconds it generates a very nasty level of background electronic static crackle across both channels regardless of what's plugged into the XLR socket and regardless of the handle's Rec Vol setting on that channel. I've tested and re-tested. Add in the attenuation and it sends it to the background. Channel 1 is fine, Channel 2 causes problems. It's intermittent though, sometimes (like when I did the main part of my test video), both channels were fine. But it's repeatable.

Anyone else seeing the same thing?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Not sure if this does apply to the X70 but for the NX30U, FDR-AX1 and the NX5U that I have it is important that if only one XLR is used , say XLR Channel 1, then the channel 2 input should be set to line. This is in my manuals. I have one Sony mic that has a lot of handling noise on any of them, the other ( same mic model) has none and a Rode NT2 has no noise on any of them !! The bad mic does not have to be handled , just touch anywhere on the camcorder. Mount off camera and it is fine.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

This "beeping" is a slightly alarming finding. Anyone else?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Could it be caused somehow by the rec light?...try turning that off in the menu and see if it still happens...

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Looking for some assistance evaluating my DSC/vectorscope calibrated X70 PP settings. I don't think I can get the colorimetry any more accurate using the minimal color correction adjustments, so now it seems to just be a matter of working out the white balance issues.

Unfortunately, or fortunately if it works for you, the push-to-white A/B on these cameras not only alters/sets kelvin, it adjusts the entire whiting process for the entire picture. This means if you white balance off of a white card with an LED light with a bit of magenta, it will apply a green cast to the entire picture to bring the white to center. This is fine if you are able to white off a subjects face prior to an SOT, but for me, it basically green tints my background and blacks after my LED lighting falls off about 10 feet away.

Anyway, looking for anyone who could perhaps put the following test settings in their X70 and give them a trial run. Looking for opinions on how they work in daylight, because I work nights, and the sun in uncooperative at these hours. These settings were calibrated using a DSC chart and vectorscope, with the WB set at indoor/3200k and a 55watt IDlight. I had to apply a PP WB off-set to chart using the indoor setting. For accuracy here, I push to white merely to get the color temperature, then go into the main menu, and set my manual kelvin to that number. This gets around the problem of the camera compensating for my cheap LED CRI. I actually use a copy of this PP setting specifically for push to white.

Looking to work through the PP "white balance" adjustments screen. If you are getting very accurate colors with the w/b PP settings at 0 with daylight or incandescent, then these settings are probably finalized. Gamma and knee values thanks to Chris Young. See below for a test video with these settings from yesterday, available in 720p60 on Chrome.

BLACK LEVEL: 0
GAMMA: ITU709
BLACK GAMMA: MIDDLE, +7 (M for deeper blacks, H for more gradability)
KNEE: MANUAL, 87.5%, -2
COLOR MODE: STILL
SATURATION: 0
COLOR PHASE: -1
COLOR DEPTH: R+5 G+3 B+5 C+5 M-2 Y+5
COLOR CORRECTION: COLOR REVISION 1&2
MEMORY1 COLOR: PHASE 23, RANGE 32, SATURATION 24
MEMORY1 REVISION: PHASE +15, SATURATION +15
MEMORY2 COLOR: PHASE 10, RANGE 31, SATURATION 0
MEMORY2 REVISION: PHASE +7, SATURATION +3
WB SHIFT: (Looking for if you can improve on anything other than 0)
DETAIL: LEVEL +7 (720p60 AVCHD is a bit soft, added some sharpening)
DETAIL MANUAL SET: ON
V/H BALANCE: 0
B/W BALANCE: TYPE 3
LIMIT: 7
CRISPENING: 2
HI-LIGHT DETAIL: 2

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hello,
I try noise on my x70, nothing bad. X70 has maybe fan, this noise dont go from lens or steadyshoot, if cover mic with hand or pillow you can hear this noise generated from inside camcorder, but is not normal situation. And if you use external mic or dont covering integrated mic with auto gain not has any problem with sound.

I find someone with this situation on ax100. Dont realy reason for returning camcorder ;)

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Can't hear the beeping on the recording, just a hum in the background that might possibly be from the lighting in that room.

Do you have some sort of audio of the beeping?

Andrew

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Ron

Thanks. Certainly switching Ch2 to Line (and adding the 20dB attenuation) makes the hiss and crackle so inaudible as not to be a problem - but the issue occurs whether there's something plugged into one or both XLR inputs. So, even with a mic in each input, the noise occurs.

And the source, I've found after much testing, is definitely Ch2. The settings of Ch1 makes no difference but Ch2 is making the horrid noise that affects both channels, rather like listening to someone tuning in a Longwave radio at midnight...

I imagine I must have a broken handle unit, it is a Sony review sample after all and it's probably been through the mill with other testers (though I'd have hoped it would withstand the abuse)

Still no idea what the beeping is mind you, the testing continues...

Regards
David

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Ahem:


It stops as soon as I stop recording despite continuing to monitor on the headphones with no changes to the mics etc. Press record and it starts again.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Hi Ron

Crikey - I keep both the inputs on my PMW-200 to Mic+48 even with only one plugged in and no probs, so must be camera dependent.

Anyway, regarding the X70 I had mics in both inputs and it still happens. Neither was touching the camcorder itself.

I would honestly be delighted to be shown that I'm doing something stupid but I'm sure it shouldn't be like this esp when Ch1 is clean regardless

Here's a quick video to demonstrate:

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

In my case the NX30U, a detachable units like the X70 ( of course could be the same unit repackaged) is worse than the AX1 or the NX5U but all have similar characteristics. Do the mics need the same gain trim in the menu ? Does altering the gain trim make any difference ?

Not sure how channel 2 causes this issue but I either have both inputs selected with mic on channel 1 ( channel 1 auto and 2 Manual gain with the XLR selection on channel 2 set to line no input) or with inputs mic on channel 1 and line on channel 2 ) and with this configuration there is no noise. Sort of makes having a mic input on channel 2 a little useless !!! But that is how I set up most of the time.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

David and Ron:

This thread is huge, so I apologize if you have already covered this. Have both of you done the firmware update?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

David and Ron:

If the audio issue does not get resolved soon, will either of you regret purchasing this particular camcorder? I have a pressing interest in knowing.

Thanks!

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Withh regards to David's first video above titled "Sony PXW X70 audio beeping", I've isolated out the beeping.

First thing to note (forgive the pun) is that there are two tones at work, on the 1khz and 2kz frequencies.

A visual spectrogram of the cleaned up-ish audio is attached.

You can download a finished .wav sample file from http://www.filedropper.com/pxw-x70beeps

Andrew

PS. It really does sound like a heart beat monitor for your camera. At least, that's what came to mind.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I have not purchased it yet as it is not yet available in my area. Due early Dec. The audio issue is of little concern to me as I have said seems to be similar to my other Sony cameras for which the solution is do not use a mic in channel 2 and leave in line mode. For me this is how I normally operate anyway so of no concern. To others it may well be a problem.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I have not done a firmware update as this camera belongs to Sony's press team and is only on loan to me.

Having said that, I thought the audio fix in the firmware was simply something to do with swapping the channels round?

I reiterate that as a loan unit, it may simply be that mine has been damaged by careless reviewers prior to it getting into my sticky paws.

In answer to your other question though, if I *had* purchased this, I'd be pretty annoyed by the audio glitches if they proved not to be a faulty unit but inherent.

Regards
David

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Anthony, how can we extend the controller to say 15-20ft? None of the sites specifically say the cable length included on these remotes and your setup seems the most ideal but I need a greater distance remote functionality. I don't know why Sony assumes the remote will just be near the camera in every situation!

Also, does anyone know if the Wi-Fi capability on the camcorder allows for you to control zoom via the app? There is no users manual online for the Sony PXW-X70 and I am surprised at the lack of updates on Sony's behalf of firmware and documentation.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Which exact Varizoom did you get? I see a couple different ones all using the VZ-Rock name; is this it? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/330007-REG/VariZoom_VZ_ROCK_VZRock_Variable_Rocker_for_LANC.html

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

...and I have a basic Libec unit - would it also require these same two cables??

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Those two cables work with my Libec controller just fine

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Well I can't find any shortwave tuner guys here Dave. I have tried everything you have mentioned plus swapped mics on inputs, a mixture of Senny, Ramsa, Sony and Audio Technica mics and I can't get a beep, crackle or hiss out of the unit other than what I would expect. Even tried with inputs #1 and #2 on manual cranked up to level 10 with or without a mics in the inputs. In a dead sterile room the only noise I can hear is the even level low hiss of a mic looking for sound when the attenuation is set to 0 and the AGC is set to AUTO. This is in both modes E to E and recorded playback.

I think I would be suspicious of the unit you have in hand. Maybe there is an issue with the handle unit. If you remove the handle unit can you still record this phantom beep? If so then that would suggest an issue with the camera itself.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

That's very reassuring to hear and thank you for that extensive testing.

Sony are now sending me a replacement loaner so I'll post an update here when it arrives. Apparently the dodgy-sounding X70 was taken to Africa by a journalist before me so it may have been nibbled on by a lion or something...

Regards
David

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

"nibbled on by a lion or something..." LOL!

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydbey

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Has anyone cleverer than I been able to estimate the native ISO of the x70 - and how does this compare to an PMW-EX1 or equivalent?

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I tested my CX900 against my work JVC HM790, and found that 15db of Sony gain equalled 0db of JVC gain. 33db of Sony gain equalled 18db of JVC gain. The JVC is f10@2000, and is about the worst camera I have ever used in low light. The Sony is cleaner at 33db than the JVC is at 18db. I don't believe the db of the Sony, I use it as a reference to what percentage of the gain "range" I am at. :-)

The JVC can go even higher with LUX gain modes, but these are practically useless for anything other than absolute emergencies where movement is happening.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Thanks for that, Paul.

I found this clip and thought it was informative. Comparing image brightness by eye seems to indicate the native ISO of the x70 is around 400 (to me anyway).

Sony pxw-x70 / canon 5d mark III iso test:

50% off Catalyst Prepare
 

For anyone that bought Catalyst Browse, there is a 50% discount off Catalyst Prepare, makes it just about worth buying!
Link here
news@mail.sonycreativesoftware.com

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

.. and if you did not buy Browse, you can still get Prepare for around $150 through B&H, versus around $200. This is what I did.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Is there a paid version of CB? I downloaded and installed for free but after installation it said I needed openCL, so I haven't used it yet.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Indeed it was, as suspected, a duff version, I think perhaps even a pre-release one that's done the rounds of various people before me.

I'm pleased to report that the replacement unit - so shiny it's clearly never been touched by human hands - is sounding much better. No mysterious beeps and no chronic self-noise emanating from channel 2!

Regards
David

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

There was (?is??), but I think you had to buy it before Prepare was introduced to be eligible for the discount

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I don't know if anyone is interested but I've found a full zoom through wide angle adapter that works beautifully with the X70. A little distortion on full wide but totally usable. It's an HD Fujinon .82 x adapter that was made for the 1/3" 16x zoom lens that came with some of the later JVC HD 1/3" cameras.

I've had this lying around for a couple of years or so and saw it on the shelf the other day and thought "I wonder, hmm!"

It actually has an 82mm thread diameter so way too big for the X70's 62mm filter thread. The other problem was that the 82mm thread on the Fuji adapter it too far forward on the adapter for a 62-82mm step up ring to be fitted. With a bit of measuring I calculated that if I used a filter ring only off an old 82mm filter and a 62-82mm step up ring I would be in business.

Sure enough. I unscrewed the retainer ring out of and old 82mm filter, removed the old chipped filter element and then just screwed this now empty 82mm filter ring, now a spacer, onto the back of the Fujinon wide adapter. Next I screwed a 62-82mm step up ring on the old 82mm filter ring ring /spacer and Voila! I now had a nice full zoom through adapter that had an effective width in FF terms of just under 24mm. It works a treat.

What I like about this unit is that it was designed to work with an 82mm front objective but on a 62mm lens mount you are using the juiciest central part of the adapter only and are well away from the edges. It's nice and sharp right across its field of view at all apertures on the X70.

The other nice aspect of this adapter is that unlike many other wide adapters it's not conical, it has parallel sides. Most wide adapters are conical in shape and don't allow a small camera to sit flat on a flat surface. With this unit there is about 1.5mm parallel clearance between the bottom of the adapter and a flat surface such as a table top. Just to ensure the rings don't unscrew and for added security I just put a wrap of electrical tape around the adapter and the two rings.

Occasionally these adapters turn up on eBay. The model number is a Fujinon WCV-82SC. One went for $10.00 last week! These cost in the high hundreds when they came out. Great value if you can score one.

If interested have a look at the attached pics.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I finally got my X70 on Monday but have been unable to test it much until the last two days.

One thing I haven't seen is a depth of field comparison of the 1" chip. I've been using the Canon XF100, a single 1/3" chip camera. But the Canon's iris is 1.8-2.8, the Sony is 2.8-4. Does the Canon's wider iris negate much of the advantage of the Sony's bigger chip when looking for blurrier bokeh?

Well, the Sony *is* better, but not by a huge margin. I'm sure there are more combinations that would show more or less difference. I could get closer to the subject and have the background farther away and get more of the blurred background effect. But, here's what I did. Both cameras were set with iris wide open. I decided to set both at 80% zoom. The teapot is 6 feet from the camera. The books are 10 feet from the camera. Don't judge the color, saturation, sharpness, etc. - but the Canon is the bottom, warm looking sample. The Sony is on top and was shot using a flat PP I'm experimenting with that was not graded. You need to click to see the image larger to really get the effect.

Notes:
1. On the Canon, the book titles "Parasite" and "Ozu" are still pretty readable. I don't think you could read those on the Sony if you didn't already know what they said.
2. Note how the scrollwork design on the brown chair at the left is almost gone in the Sony version.
3. The blue behind the books and chair is an exterior glass door with mini blinds 3-4 feet behind the books. On the Sony the slats have mostly disappeared.
4. Finally, this was shot in very low indoor lighting. Note the graininess/noise in the Canon - it was at 12 db Gain. The Sony's Gain is tighter and smoother - and it was at 15db. The Sony was shooting the max quality XAVC 1080p60, the Canon its best 4:2:2 codec @ 1080p30 (it doesn't do 60p@1080.

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

I've studied with interest all the PP settings posted by Paul Anderegg and Christopher Young. Don't laugh, but now that I have the camera I'm testing their settings - calling the settings Paul and Chris :-)

However, I really like to shoot flat, then do tweaking in post (nothing too fancy and I won't even call it "grading"). But I don't shoot on a deadline, enjoy the creative aspect of this, and have the time to mess with it.

Paul and Christopher - it sounds like you are always looking for a finished look in-camera, but I've been experimenting with flatter variations of your settings. I'm raising the Black Level even more, setting Black Gamma to its highest setting, dialing down Saturation, setting Knee even lower than 87.5 and -2, etc. I'm getting some looks I like, but am still testing.

I even tried your settings with Cinematone1 - that didn't go well. I realized that the Cine gammas *already* have some stretching built in and adding more led to some banding. And as Christopher posted earlier, I've found the Cine gammas to be noiser anyway.

Paul had asked for some feedback. I haven't tested your settings yet in sunlight but indoors with careful custom white balance I'm finding them just slightly magenta/blue. I'm experimenting with backing down the Color Phase a couple of notches. And, Christopher, in my testing yours is slightly yellow/green and I'm liking it with the Color Phase tweaked *up* a notch or two.

You probably haven't tested this at all, but do you have any comments on how to tweak your settings for a flatter look? Am I on the right track with that? Should I be making WB adjustments instead of Color Phase if I want to tweak the overall color?

Thanks for all that you've done already testing the camera!

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Chris, I use an EXII that looks almost identical to that, in fact, I believe the newer JVC version is based on the EXII from 16x9 Inc. On the X70, it's almost impossible to tell it's attached. On a JVC HM650, the sides and corners are blurry and have CA. On my HM790, the corners vignette. Seems these adapters are just right for these little cameras, and really don't feel too odd or heavy once attached. 16x9 Inc provided me a direct 72mm thread to replace the stock 82, and a 62mm step down, so i can use it on the HM650 and the X70.

David, thanks for playing with my settings. By custom white balancing, do you mean push to white? Everything I do is with the presets or with manual kelvin, because once you push to white, the camera changes things other than b-y kelvin temperature. Unless you are in a 3200k studio, or in sun light, push to white is not really a viable alternative IMO. Playing with the base phase adjustment can provide real usable correction, just crank that sucker up and down till the LCD or EVF looks better. Works for scene by scene, don't crank and leave it there.

That being said, I am working with a new PP set-up based on Cinematone 1. I am finding that this little camera is not "scope friendly", meaning the color correction settings are meant to be done by eyeball. I am also finding that there are large expanses of color revision numbers that will look identical on the scope, but will change the visual appearance of a color dramatically. Weirdly enough, you can go to a +4 then color changes at +5, then changes back to what it looked like at +4 at +6. So for any further testing, the DSC chart and vectorscope will be used to get the most offensive colors (reds are most important!) in the neighborhood, then further adjustments will be made by eye. Cinematone 1 is a bit noisy, but it gave me the most accurate mustard color yellows, instead of the almost rubber duck yellows the rest give, mostly with a severe hint of neon green!

Important note, color revision/correction settings for picture profiles are only good for the PP they were adjusted for. They are not interchangeable, and in fact, on a vectorscope, the base color matrix settings vary wildly in where they paint their colors. If you want to see the variance, find some yellows and just scroll through stock PP's 1-6, and see how the changes appear.

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

David, have you played with the PP WB settings? They really need to be factored into your PP settings, they are there for a reason, and that reason is these cameras are all over the place color wise. You can store two WB of-sets, one called LB and one called R-B. You are able to toggle between them. They simply move the entire color palette (on the scope) in a singular direction, putting your white in the center.

Got magenta/blue? Try -B a couple and a -R. Alternately, on the LB, just decrease magenta, go to green. :)

Paul

Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100
 

Paul - yes, I've been using Push to White. So you're saying you just eyeball the white balance while manually changing the kelvin? OK, that may explain why I was getting some color shifts on both your settings and Chris's, but I'm glad to know that Color Phase is a good way to adjust.

But all this just makes me more certain I want to continue my shoot flat and adjust in post approach. I did try Cine1 and liked it, but realized your color settings wouldn't work for it, and I haven't had a chance to test in anything but low light, which is not my usual scenario. I did find Cine1 not as noisy as Cine2, and liked the smooth rolloff of highs and lows. I'll experiment some more and await what you find out.

Yes, I did realize that your extensive Color Revision adjustments would only apply if using the Still color mode (assuming that's what you meant).

I'll keep in mind the PP level WB as a way of further refining the looks.