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July 22nd, 2015, 09:42 PM | #106 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
It's all about how the image looks in the medium it needs to look right in (theater, home, projection at event or house of worship, internet, smartphone, ad display, etc.)
How. It. Actually. Looks. As for a Sony camera leaning yellow, just adjust the tint on your monitor! FIXED! ;-) |
July 23rd, 2015, 01:09 AM | #107 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
You do have the x70 and the ax100, why don't you place them side by side and shoot something that will stress the codec? It would just take 1 framegrab from each camera to proof what you have been trying to say here for 3 pages :)
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July 23rd, 2015, 01:30 AM | #108 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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I am not a specifications guy but I judge my camera's based on what I see, when the sony rx10 came out some geartech sites trashed it because the avchd codec was supposed to be useless, something Sony has address later on by adding the xavc-s codec. I honestly couldn't see an issue with the "old" 28mbs codec, it was fine for me and for my paying clients, ofcourse I could see codec break-up when took framegrabs from high detailed moving images and blow them up in photoshop but who watches a film like that anyway. I also believe you never can win an argument based on specifications only but by shooting in real world scenarios and comparing camera's side by side. Last edited by Noa Put; July 23rd, 2015 at 04:43 AM. |
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July 23rd, 2015, 06:17 AM | #109 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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Simple question to Jody: If you asked your colorist; "I'm shooting some awesome stuff next week. My PXW-X70 can do 60Mbp/s or 100Mbp/s....which one do you prefer I bring it to you in?" (Let's say you were shooting a car chase/crash/explosion scene for next season's NCIS) What would he tell you to use?.... Why?.... Simple question for all: If Sony upgraded your X70 and it could shoot in either 60Mbp/s or 100Mbp/s (like it's AX100's baby sister does) Which bit rate would you use? (let's say you were on vacation in Yellowstone shooting a grizzly attacking a wolf.) Why?..... CT ;-) |
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July 23rd, 2015, 07:02 AM | #110 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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My gh4 can do different high bitrates in 1080p yet I always shoot at 50mbs ipb, why, because I compared and they look the same to me so again I save space and get a IQ that suits my and my clients needs. If I would be shooting high detail scenes with lots of motion and if I would have high IQ demands from my clients I would shoot in the highest bitrate possible, if I would have a camera like the x70 and if the 4K option would not meet my needs I simply would sell the camera and buy a camera that does. I don't see any need to complain about something that might never change, with Sony you can only hope they might give you a firmware update but they move in mysterious ways, maybe they have a x70 mark II in mind that can do 4K50p at 100+mbs, maybe they will provide a firmware update or maybe they just leave it as is and move into another direction depending on sales. Just get a camera that fits your needs now and start shooting instead of dreaming of that pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. :) |
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July 23rd, 2015, 08:35 AM | #111 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
To support Noa. The only difference I see between 30P at 60 or 100Mbps ( on the AX100 or the AX1 ) is if I pan then both are awful compared to 60P at 150Mbps. Fixed on a tripod I see no difference between 60Mbps and 100Mbps. As mentioned before 30P is too slow for me so only shoot at 60P anyway.
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July 23rd, 2015, 08:55 AM | #112 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I have a simple question for Cliff; have you even shot 4K with the x70 and if so, can you show us why it's a codec that doesn't deliver? So no numbers this time, just something visual that shows that the 60mbs codec from the x70 is no match against a 100mbs+ codec from any of those other 12 camera's you mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
Or maybe just the ax33, it can do 100mbs but I have read that owners have been underwhelmed by the IQ of this camera compared to a ax100, can we say that the x70 is even worse, because it only does 60mbs? |
July 23rd, 2015, 09:33 AM | #113 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Noa, I'm not saying it's terrible or anything of the sort. Guys, I'm not saying the AX100 or the X70 is unusable, ungradable garbage. An yeah, the AX33 at 100Mbp/s wont look as good as the AX100/X70 at 60Mbp/s. The AX100/X70's front end is WAY better than the AX33's....no CODEC bitrate at the end of the camera can "fix" that image. Yes, we ALL know this.
Some of you are completely missing my point. When a codec gets it's image input, it discards TONS of information. The H.264 implementation that XAVC uses is about as good as the h.264 library allows it to be. Sony does a great job with it's encoders. So with that being said,...more image data is being dis-guarded in 60Mbp/s than it is in 100Mbp/s. The compression ratio is significantly higher in 60Mbp/s. The bits per pixel count is lower than it is in 100Mbps. (Sorry Noa for using "numbers" here on you) 60 Mbp/s holds well on static scenes. I have tested 60 vs.100 on light motion testing. I have not done it of fast complex motion scenes. But, yes I will before I sell my AX100. Here...I did this a couple of months ago. This is very low complexity scene with just tree branches moving. Yes, 60mbp/s holds up well. but this is literally as "static" as it gets so it's not stressing out the 60 very much at all. I suppose I can do a light and dark shady scene with allot of motion to see how fast the two break. Remember, bits are always allocated to mid tones first and shadows get the least so they are usually the first areas of a CODEC to break and macro block up. |
July 23rd, 2015, 01:15 PM | #114 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Clif, until you stop talking numbers and start talking real-world results, we have nowhere else to go in this conversation.
As to which codecs my colorists would prefer, that would be 16-bit 4K F55 Raw (@ 23.98) or S-Log, or 16-bit F65 Raw. The 4K F55 would be 960 mbps and the F65 could be as high as 5 GBps. |
July 23rd, 2015, 01:26 PM | #115 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
BTW, we compared 4K AX100 footage @100 mbps to 4K 60 mbps from the X70 in that same 4K grading suite. Two DPs and the senior colorist all agreed that the footage recorded in the X70's XAVC-L codec was superior in most respects, and inferior in none.
Some of the footage was captured with the two cameras side-by-side shooting the exact same shots. WHAT MATTERS: the images from both cameras looked very, very good and were more than adequate for the productions being shot with them. (My friend who owns the AX100 loves it, but after seeing my X70 and the 4K tests he is strongly considering selling his and buying an X70. Better features, deeper menu, more advanced picture profiles, a seemingly superior recording codec, etc.) |
July 23rd, 2015, 02:05 PM | #116 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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You have S-LOG listed. What CODEC do they want their S-LOG in and does that "really" matter in your opinion? |
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July 23rd, 2015, 02:12 PM | #117 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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[QUOTE=Two DPs and the senior colorist all agreed that the footage recorded in the X70's XAVC-L codec was superior in most respects, and inferior in none."[/QUOTE] Can you clarify that a little bit?...was "superior" to what?"...."inferior to non?...non, what? |
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July 23rd, 2015, 02:32 PM | #118 | |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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July 23rd, 2015, 02:46 PM | #119 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
They are the same CODEC but two different bitrates. The CODEC is H.264 for both. XAVC-S,-L and I all use the same codec.(with different frame rates, bit rates, inter and intra modes)
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July 23rd, 2015, 03:29 PM | #120 |
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
So? What are you trying to say now? Jody said the x70 codec looked superior to the ax100, even if it had a lower bitrate, so can we conclude the 60mbs bitrate from the x70 is more then adequate to compete with a 100mbs codec from "other 4k" camera's?
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