Planning of doing side-by-side comparison on FX1 and HC1

Lorin Thwaits · July 7th, 2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorin Thwaits

Thanks very much for the clip! Time for me to put it under a magnifying glass.

Okay, I've been checking it out, and here's a portion of one of the frames giving evidence that the sensor uses a rolling shutter:

http://hdvforever.com/hdv/truckslant.jpg

Notice the red truck looks like it's slanted backwards. I would have to expect that's not what trucks in Japan really look like! (The back of the truck would be fairly straight, and fairly vertical.) Although subtle, the rolling shutter effect is present.

This is then also the most likely culprit for the vertical stretching phenomenon I saw in some other clips. Hard to see when it's being played back full-speed, but evident when going through frame by frame.

When clips taken with a higher shutter speed are made available, the effect will become more obvious. But perhaps it will still be an acceptable compromise for most people.

Still can't believe the broad latitude this camera offers. CMOS really trumps CCD in that area. Very little need for a neutral density filter.

-Lorin

Radek Svoboda · July 7th, 2005, 10:34 AM

About rolling shutter effect, some slight vertical image breezing on some frames with steady shot. Problems, if they exist are so slight, no one has really complained about.

Slight rolling shutter effect exists in film cameras too.

We have preproduction model, tested on another site, was supposed have some extremely minor image breathing.

Even if was rolling shutter and breathing existed in production model, would it effect anybody's purchase decision? Extremely unlikey. Camera's superior overall performance is what natters. No camera is perfect.

As to rolling shutter with Sony CMOS, any CMOS, Sony have 3 CMOS 3MP DV camera. Haven't heard anyone raising issue about rollig shutter issue. Even if rolling shutter existed, to me is non issue, rather nothing to really worry about. The camera has no competition. There is no other camera that size, price that come even close in performance. Still is nice to know.

Steady Shot can bring lot more image degradation than what described. That's why is switchable and is hardly ever used in true pro productions.

Radek

Kaku Ito · July 7th, 2005, 12:09 PM

So far, the cam is more than satisfactory for the price and ease of carrying around. I won't even have problem to set it on my helmet to do onboard video (not sure if the MPEG scheme can hold on with all of the vibration) as far as the size and weight you are talking about.

Tilting problem seems to be minor. I have more clips to share tomorrow with little girl playing in a small river in the park, a dog, and almost famous Harajuku street descending (and GAP). Now Frederic Haubrich helped me with migrating my LumiereHD to the new machine, I will be able to provide the raw clips, too. Then we can compare how well or bad FCP5 keeps the original fidelity on HDV.

By the way, I added m2t format file (converted from FCP5 HDV format) on my site, so people had problems playing back can download that version to enjoy. <Click here>

Mike Farrington · July 7th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

By the way, I added m2t format file (converted from FCP5 HDV format) on my site, so people had problems playing back can download that version to enjoy. <Click here>

Kaku, that link isn't working properly. It states "You must login to access the document section."

Edit: Nevermind. I decided to just go through the registration process and created an account for myself.

Michal Laskowski · July 7th, 2005, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure, but it looks like HC1 has incredible dynamic range. In Kaku's clip the gain is above 9db, grain is clearly visible inside car (e.g. at the face), but also the portion of picture where is view at outside (tree, other car) is almost perfect - without grain and not overexpose. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think any consumer/prosumer CCD camcorder would be able to capture such a high dynamic range. Is Sony leaflet about CMOS advantages true, what do you think of it?

Sergio Perez · July 7th, 2005, 09:00 PM

Kaku, thanks for the excelent report. I have a few questions that I hope you can answer:

How does the image compare to the fx1- specially in color and skin tones? How about the lens?

Have you tried downconverted sd? How does it compare to a trv 900/950/pdx10? (I'm trying to find a replacement to my trusty old 7 year trv900-that still works and was never repaired!)

Thanks again Kaku, and I look forward to your further testing!

Sergio

Kaku Ito · July 7th, 2005, 11:07 PM

Michal,

CMOS seems to have more dynamic range, but the dark and bright area is controlled by their new processing scheme called Enhanced Imaging Processor (Gawd I sound like advertising). They separately handle the image and the birghtness, resulting the ability to make only the dark area brighter. So, now you know why that coffe ban scene was possible.

Sergio,

I will do my usual test today (me and my bike in front of my office) to compare the video I previously shot with PDX10 and others. I have footage of FX1 and HC1 with a girl. Please give me few hours.

Yiannis Kall · July 8th, 2005, 12:43 AM

thanks for your videos
Can you please upload a video with motion, like take video while riding your bike or while walking? We have to see how is the gop level.
thanks again

Kaku Ito · July 8th, 2005, 01:24 AM

Oh, that is what I forgot to do (I have some during night, but day), so I'm getting out now with my bike before I jump in the bath. Me and my wife shot my regular bike routine in front of my office so you can compare to my older footage with PDX10, XL2 and so on.

Kaku Ito · July 8th, 2005, 04:25 AM

I added few clips including handheld and bike-mounted video footage at my site. These clips are raw m2t clips captured using LumiereHD 1.5b11 with the help of Frederic Haubrick. I had to make them available to registered users only to avoid directly linked download from other sites. You can simply go through the automatic registration procudure. Please also leave some comments and suggestions there.

Jef Bryant · July 8th, 2005, 06:30 AM

The rolling shutter artifact mentioned a few posts up is actually referred to in the manual, under "troubleshooting."

"The subjects passing by the frame might appear crooked. This is called the focal plane phenomenon. This is not a malfunction. Because of the way the image device (CMOS sensor) reads out image signals, the subjects passing by the frame rapidly might crooked depending on the recording conditions."

Mike Farrington · July 8th, 2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jef Bryant

"The subjects passing by the frame might appear crooked. This is called the focal plane phenomenon. This is not a malfunction. Because of the way the image device (CMOS sensor) reads out image signals, the subjects passing by the frame rapidly might crooked depending on the recording conditions."

Being a software developer, that's when we say: "That's not a bug, it's a feature!"

Jung Kyu · July 8th, 2005, 08:03 AM

Kaku can you also upload Cinema mode

I was little disappointed when i saw hc1 clip from this site...especially the color of WMV encoding

http://www.oysy.com/citv/

but when i saw Kaku raw footage i'm confident this cam is not so diffrent than fx1. excet the wide angel..

this airplane was shot by hc1
but it looks so diffrent...

http://www.airliners.jp/qtd/KZ74X_JA...050706_MP4.mov

Thanks alot

Yiannis Kall · July 8th, 2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

I added few clips including handheld and bike-mounted video footage at my site.

thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Farrington · July 8th, 2005, 09:28 AM

Kaku,

I haven't said it before, because I was so wrapped up in my video-playing problems, but thank you so much for your all of your efforts. It's much appreciated.

I've got an off topic question about Japan if you don't mind. Is everything over there an odd mix of 90% Japanese and 10% English? It seems like everything I see with Japanese writing usually has a little bit of English thrown in. For example, the cover of the FunRide magazine shown in the top-left of your website is all in Japanese, except for the subtitle that says "Cyclists' Magazine & DVD". Also, the English URL FunRide.jp. What percentage of people speak English as a second language in Japan?

-Mike

July 7th, 2005, 09:00 PM	#51
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Kaku, thanks for the excelent report. I have a few questions that I hope you can answer: How does the image compare to the fx1- specially in color and skin tones? How about the lens? Have you tried downconverted sd? How does it compare to a trv 900/950/pdx10? (I'm trying to find a replacement to my trusty old 7 year trv900-that still works and was never repaired!) Thanks again Kaku, and I look forward to your further testing! Sergio __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

July 8th, 2005, 08:03 AM	#58
Jung Kyu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 143	Thanks Kaku Ito Kaku can you also upload Cinema mode I was little disappointed when i saw hc1 clip from this site...especially the color of WMV encoding http://www.oysy.com/citv/ but when i saw Kaku raw footage i'm confident this cam is not so diffrent than fx1. excet the wide angel.. this airplane was shot by hc1 but it looks so diffrent... http://www.airliners.jp/qtd/KZ74X_JA...050706_MP4.mov Thanks alot

July 7th, 2005, 10:34 AM	#47
Radek Svoboda Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 500	About rolling shutter effect, some slight vertical image breezing on some frames with steady shot. Problems, if they exist are so slight, no one has really complained about. Slight rolling shutter effect exists in film cameras too. We have preproduction model, tested on another site, was supposed have some extremely minor image breathing. Even if was rolling shutter and breathing existed in production model, would it effect anybody's purchase decision? Extremely unlikey. Camera's superior overall performance is what natters. No camera is perfect. As to rolling shutter with Sony CMOS, any CMOS, Sony have 3 CMOS 3MP DV camera. Haven't heard anyone raising issue about rollig shutter issue. Even if rolling shutter existed, to me is non issue, rather nothing to really worry about. The camera has no competition. There is no other camera that size, price that come even close in performance. Still is nice to know. Steady Shot can bring lot more image degradation than what described. That's why is switchable and is hardly ever used in true pro productions. Radek

July 7th, 2005, 12:09 PM	#48
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	So far, the cam is more than satisfactory for the price and ease of carrying around. I won't even have problem to set it on my helmet to do onboard video (not sure if the MPEG scheme can hold on with all of the vibration) as far as the size and weight you are talking about. Tilting problem seems to be minor. I have more clips to share tomorrow with little girl playing in a small river in the park, a dog, and almost famous Harajuku street descending (and GAP). Now Frederic Haubrich helped me with migrating my LumiereHD to the new machine, I will be able to provide the raw clips, too. Then we can compare how well or bad FCP5 keeps the original fidelity on HDV. By the way, I added m2t format file (converted from FCP5 HDV format) on my site, so people had problems playing back can download that version to enjoy. <Click here>

July 7th, 2005, 02:56 PM	#50
Michal Laskowski New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 23	I'm not sure, but it looks like HC1 has incredible dynamic range. In Kaku's clip the gain is above 9db, grain is clearly visible inside car (e.g. at the face), but also the portion of picture where is view at outside (tree, other car) is almost perfect - without grain and not overexpose. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think any consumer/prosumer CCD camcorder would be able to capture such a high dynamic range. Is Sony leaflet about CMOS advantages true, what do you think of it?

July 7th, 2005, 11:07 PM	#52
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Michal, CMOS seems to have more dynamic range, but the dark and bright area is controlled by their new processing scheme called Enhanced Imaging Processor (Gawd I sound like advertising). They separately handle the image and the birghtness, resulting the ability to make only the dark area brighter. So, now you know why that coffe ban scene was possible. Sergio, I will do my usual test today (me and my bike in front of my office) to compare the video I previously shot with PDX10 and others. I have footage of FX1 and HC1 with a girl. Please give me few hours.

July 8th, 2005, 12:43 AM	#53
Yiannis Kall Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Greece-Athens Posts: 37	thanks for your videos Can you please upload a video with motion, like take video while riding your bike or while walking? We have to see how is the gop level. thanks again

July 8th, 2005, 01:24 AM	#54
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Oh, that is what I forgot to do (I have some during night, but day), so I'm getting out now with my bike before I jump in the bath. Me and my wife shot my regular bike routine in front of my office so you can compare to my older footage with PDX10, XL2 and so on.

July 8th, 2005, 04:25 AM	#55
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I added few clips including handheld and bike-mounted video footage at my site. These clips are raw m2t clips captured using LumiereHD 1.5b11 with the help of Frederic Haubrick. I had to make them available to registered users only to avoid directly linked download from other sites. You can simply go through the automatic registration procudure. Please also leave some comments and suggestions there.

July 8th, 2005, 06:30 AM	#56
Jef Bryant Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 31	The rolling shutter artifact mentioned a few posts up is actually referred to in the manual, under "troubleshooting." "The subjects passing by the frame might appear crooked. This is called the focal plane phenomenon. This is not a malfunction. Because of the way the image device (CMOS sensor) reads out image signals, the subjects passing by the frame rapidly might crooked depending on the recording conditions."

July 8th, 2005, 09:28 AM	#60
Mike Farrington Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 45	Kaku, I haven't said it before, because I was so wrapped up in my video-playing problems, but thank you so much for your all of your efforts. It's much appreciated. I've got an off topic question about Japan if you don't mind. Is everything over there an odd mix of 90% Japanese and 10% English? It seems like everything I see with Japanese writing usually has a little bit of English thrown in. For example, the cover of the FunRide magazine shown in the top-left of your website is all in Japanese, except for the subtitle that says "Cyclists' Magazine & DVD". Also, the English URL FunRide.jp. What percentage of people speak English as a second language in Japan? -Mike