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-   -   Sony HVR-HD1000U Shoulder Mount for $1900 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-hvr-hd1000/101903-sony-hvr-hd1000u-shoulder-mount-1900-a.html)

Hse Kha August 23rd, 2007 06:06 AM

Sony HVR-HD1000U Shoulder Mount for $1900
 
See this:-

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/23/s...hdv-camcorder/

Weird camera. Single chip shoudler mount? Who are they targetting???

Boyd Ostroff August 23rd, 2007 06:37 AM

That is really strange. I thought the $1,900 was a typo at Engadget but Sony's press release has the same price: http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/31159.html

But I still wonder if it's a typo?....

Joseph H. Moore August 23rd, 2007 07:07 AM

No mention of 24P. :-(

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 07:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
24p isn't a requirement in the market for which this camcorder is intended... click the pic to see it big:

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 07:31 AM

By the way this is *not* the HDV version of the DSR250. To me it looks like they're going after the market which bought Panasonic's AG-DVC7 and DVC15, which were educators and entry-level wedding and event videographers.

Joseph H. Moore August 23rd, 2007 07:33 AM

No, maybe not their intended market ... but I doubt filmmakers were the intended market for the HV20, either. ;-) Couple $1,900 with a half inch chip and people start thinking outside of marketing plans.

Steve Nunez August 23rd, 2007 07:54 AM

Any photos of the other side available?

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 08:06 AM

I've just put in a call for more photos... keep your fingers crossed,

Theodore McNeil August 23rd, 2007 08:10 AM

The press release doesn't mention and the camera in the photo doesn't seem to have xlr connections, that's a bummer.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 08:14 AM

It's conceivable that there might be a 3-chip, XLR-equipped pro version waiting in the wings, an "HVR-HD2000U" perhaps. Honestly I can't see them working up a shoulder-mount body and not taking it as far as they did with the DSR250 (fixed lens, iris ring etc.).

Mathieu Ghekiere August 23rd, 2007 08:47 AM

That's really cheap for a shoulder mount... really not a typo?

What's the catch?
Is this a reaction from Sony to all the RED and SKI camera's (I know this camera is a whole other league, but looking at cost versus quality on those camera's, in comparison with this one...) or a reaction to the Canon A1, or... what is this?
Does it have manual control?
Pitty it doesn't have 24p. I really wonder what the image quality will be at this price point...

Ethan Cooper August 23rd, 2007 09:01 AM

window dressing?
 
My guess is that it's the internal guts of a much smaller cam repackaged in a shoulder mount form.
Remember, just because it's a large form factor doesnt mean it's a great camera. I seem to remember some cheap (panasonic?) shoulder mount DV cams that sucked compared to the DVX-100's.
I'm not sure where they are going with this thing, I just hope it doesn't blow away my $2,500 FX7 for less $$ but I doubt it.

Jason Lowe August 23rd, 2007 09:02 AM

Wow, and actual zoom rocker switch. That's a big seller for me, as I hate hate hate those tiny finger rocker things.

No real word on manual controls, which are more important to me than 24p. The presser says "A multi-function assignable lens ring is located on the lens unit, and any one of the following functions can be assigned to the ring for easy adjustment: focus (default), zoom, brightness, shutter, auto exposure shift and white balance shift." I'm guessing brightness is exposure, since marketing would never use the same word twice in the same sentence, even if it's technically correct.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere (Post 732982)
I really wonder what the image quality will be at this price point...

Price point doesn't affect image quality as much as it affects feature sets.

Mathieu Ghekiere August 23rd, 2007 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper (Post 732994)
My guess is that it's the internal guts of a much smaller cam repackaged in a shoulder mount form.
Remember, just because it's a large form factor doesnt mean it's a great camera. I seem to remember some cheap (panasonic?) shoulder mount DV cams that sucked compared to the DVX-100's.
I'm not sure where they are going with this thing, I just hope it doesn't blow away my $2,500 FX7 for less $$ but I doubt it.


I think this too, but then I also think it's a bit useless for this camera to be released, exept for maybe people who want to look professional - which I don't have anything against, you can say all what you want of course, but for some clients and weddings... it matters...

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 09:06 AM

See my post here, it's targeted at educators and entry-level wedding and event videographers. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Joseph H. Moore August 23rd, 2007 09:12 AM

Does Sony have a smaller and cheaper camera with this chip? Aren't most of them 1/3" ?

Ethan Cooper August 23rd, 2007 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore (Post 733003)
Does Sony have a smaller and cheaper camera with this chip? Aren't most of them 1/3" ?

Good question, and what the heck is a 1/2.9 chip? Can't we keep it simple and leave it at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4? Do they need this odd size to do their clearvid trick?

Ervin Farkas August 23rd, 2007 09:20 AM

Smooth Slow Rec
 
"The “Smooth Slow Rec” function allows users to perform slow-motion playback by capturing images at four times faster than the normal field rate (240 fields/s). In this mode, quad-speed images are captured for three seconds, stored in the camcorder’s built-in buffer memory, and then recorded to tape (in either the HDV, DVCAM™, or DV formats) as slow-motion pictures lasting 12 seconds. When using this function, Ott said the resolution of the camera image is decreased."

This function alone will make it a sweetheart in the wedding videographer's hands as slowmo is probably the most used special effect in their work.

Ethan Cooper August 23rd, 2007 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas (Post 733008)
"The “Smooth Slow Rec” function...
...This function alone will make it a sweetheart in the wedding videographer's hands as slowmo is probably the most used special effect in their work.

No so fast my friend. (gearing up for college football season) The FX7 has this feature and it's pretty close to being useless. The resolution drops to youtube-like levels and it requires a good deal of light to get a decent image.
It's pretty much marketing hype. I mean yes, it does work, but only... kinda sorta. It "works" in the same way that the old VX2000's progressive frame mode "worked". It will do what they say it does, but is it really of any use?

Ervin Farkas August 23rd, 2007 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper (Post 733014)
It will do what they say it does, but is it really of any use?

How about when downconverting to SD... the quality drop is still noticeable? I mean editing HD and resize for standard def delivery.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper (Post 733005)
...what the heck is a 1/2.9 chip? Can't we keep it simple and leave it at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4?

Unfortunately this questionable practice of expressing a fraction with a decimal is industry-wide and has been around for a little while. Personally I find it annoying, but these size expressions are misleading anyway, since a 1/4" chip isn't really 1/4" across its diagonal but is actually a bit smaller than that.

In my opinion the industry should be expressing these sensor sizes in actual millimeters.

I wrote about the decimal-in-fraction chip nomenclature here: http://www.dvinfo.net/canonoptura/ar...eage.php#opccd
-- it's a bit outdated but the concept is still the same. Hope this helps,

Ethan Cooper August 23rd, 2007 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas (Post 733018)
How about when downconverting to SD... the quality drop is still noticeable? I mean editing HD and resize for standard def delivery.

The simplest and least polarizing answer I can give you is that I don't use it. I've found the results to be less than acceptable.

Ethan Cooper August 23rd, 2007 09:40 AM

Chris,
from doing a quick scan of your fraction/decimal conversion article am I correct in assuming that 1/2.9 is pretty darn close to a 1/3 in chip size?

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 09:42 AM

Pretty darn close is right... I'd describe it as "practically" one-third of an inch.

Barry Green August 23rd, 2007 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd (Post 732962)
It's conceivable that there might be a 3-chip, XLR-equipped pro version waiting in the wings, an "HVR-HD2000U" perhaps. Honestly I can't see them working up a shoulder-mount body and not taking it as far as they did with the DSR250 (fixed lens, iris ring etc.).

They showed a mockup of exactly that at the SMPTE show in Australia. Basically a shoulder-mount V1U.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 10:06 AM

Aha. I knew it. Thanks Barry,

Thomas Smet August 23rd, 2007 10:14 AM

All this seems to be is a normal everyday single chip camera popped into a large body for the form factor alone. People who come from a world of using larger style cameras do not like to go down to a handheld camera. That is one of the reasons why the XL1 did so well. It wasn't only about the features and quality but the form factor itself. Some shooters loe working with the form factor and may look into this camera.

I Really would consider it low end wedding market however. This camera is more of a replacement for a "pro" who wants to make money shooting video but only wants to look more "pro" and still stick with a camera in the single chip consumer market. This camera should give the impression of a better videographer even though it may not offer any better of quality compared to their current single chip SONY HDV camera. The camera should also compliment any users current single cip SONY camera as well. The quality should be pretty much the same so for two camera shoots the footage would match up very well.

Think of this as just a HC7 but with better then consumer controls in terms of zooming and focusing. So basically it will come down to begineers deciding if they want hand held FX7 with 3 chips or shoulder mount pro form factor with 1 chip. Really if you plan on using lights in your productions the difference betwen 3 chips and 1 chip doesn't really mean anything. The FX7 should be anymore sensitive then this camera. Having three chips doesn't give you more light, it is just another way of creating the color values.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet (Post 733051)
... a normal everyday single chip camera popped into a large body for the form factor alone.

Yes, just like the Panasonic AG-DVC7.

Quote:

I Really would consider it low end wedding market however.
Plus the schools... educators will eat it up. This is the new Panasonic AG-456U, remember that? Meanwhile there's already a clear indication that Panasonic will indeed compete in this particular market as well, with a shoulder-mount AVCHD camcorder as referenced here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=101753

Quote:

Having three chips doesn't give you more light, it is just another way of creating the color values.
Fully agreed; single-chip plus RBG filtering pretty much equals three-chip these days (exceeds in some cases).

Mathieu Ghekiere August 23rd, 2007 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green (Post 733044)
They showed a mockup of exactly that at the SMPTE show in Australia. Basically a shoulder-mount V1U.

But the V1U is 3999 dollars or something...
Why would Sony put the same package in a 1900 and even add Shoulder Mount feature to it?

Chris, you are right about features and price point, I think the most important thing for this camera, if it wants to be succesful, is have manual control over all the important things.

Chris Hurd August 23rd, 2007 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere (Post 733065)
But the V1U is 3999 dollars or something... Why would Sony put the same package in a 1900 and even add Shoulder Mount feature to it?

They wouldn't. That's not what they're doing; please re-read the thread. Barry's report about the "V1 in a shoulder mount form" was in reference to my speculation about the possibility of a forthcoming higher-end 3-chip, XLR-equipped version of the HVR-HD1000, and not the HVR-HD1000 itself.

Quote:

I think the most important thing for this camera... is manual control over all the important things
No reason why it won't have that. It's coming from Sony's professional division, so manual controls are obviously part of the package.

David Stoneburner August 23rd, 2007 12:22 PM

Could it be a shoulder mount replacement to the A1U?

Craig Irving August 23rd, 2007 01:34 PM

They wouldn't get rid of the A1U.

Now they have HDV products for all different styles of shooters. The A1U will remain their pocket-cam I imagine, and I would prefer having that to a big shoulder-mount (for what I do anyway).

Heath McKnight August 23rd, 2007 02:46 PM

I'm sure someone mentioned this, but it reminds me of those small-CCD Panasonic DV camcorders that kind of look like an XL1 (sort of, mind you) that I've seen at two high schools where some friends work. It's the Panasonic DVC20 I'm talking about there.

heath

Lou Bruno August 23rd, 2007 02:56 PM

HUMMMM.....wondering if this is a puffed-up plastic version of the HC-7.

I agree with Chris that it may appear like the low-end shoulder mounted Panny consumer models. Only time will tell.

Zack Birlew August 23rd, 2007 04:08 PM

It looks pretty neat, I'm sure it will be on par with their consumer models and lower-end professional models, the A1U-level at the most based on the price.

UNLV has some of the Pansonic cameras mentioned, can't remember which, I think the DVC7? Looks impressive in person, even though the video quality was a little "meh" compared to a filmmaker's camera like the DVX or such. I would imagine the same thing could happen with this model, may not be the best but it looks very professional.

Guy Barwood August 23rd, 2007 07:31 PM

I'm with Lou, all this camera is, is a HC7 in a big plastic shell and nothing more.

Same size sensor, same '6.1MP' still, same mic connector, same Carl Zeiss 10x lens etc

It only seems to have a slightly longer high frame rate capture (but without looking into my HC7 manual it could be the same).

Gary Silverman August 23rd, 2007 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Felis (Post 733224)
UNLV has some of the Pansonic cameras mentioned, can't remember which, I think the DVC7? Looks impressive in person, even though the video quality was a little "meh" compared to a filmmaker's camera like the DVX or such. I would imagine the same thing could happen with this model, may not be the best but it looks very professional.

There's a ton of schools of all types that use the low-end Panasonic shoulder-mount models. And as others of have said I think that's the market that Sony is going after with this. I know the college I graduated from a few years ago replaced their VX1000 cameras with the DVC7 (or whatever the equivalent was prior to it) just for the form factor. I think schools would chose a little less quality image quality over the picture jumping all over the screen from a handheld.

I don't know how much money can be made off sales to the educational video market, but Panasonic had a monopoly on it until this.

Wayne Morellini August 23rd, 2007 10:18 PM

Does Sony own Panasonic now? I posted an link to an picture of the Panasonic Pro-line AVCHD shoulder mount camera an while ago, now Sony is doing an low end shoulder to market first. Panasonic separately waited and developed the h264 platform, now avcHD, for years, yet Sony came in late and released an camera before them.

I would respect it more, if it was based on the sensor of the XDCAM HD EX, or V1.

Interesting how hyped they are getting over at ccinfo, as usual. Comments on looking like the Canon, it's not even bent. On how Sony cameras have more artifacting and weaker color, they haven't figured that when you have an sensor format that doesn't fit the shape of the pixel, that you are going to get these things, or mixing with neighbouring pixels to compensate for them.

I am waiting to see the Pana camera first. It will be interesting to see the comparison of under $5K cameras in an few months.

John Bosco Jr. August 24th, 2007 03:47 AM

I wish this was offered before I purchased my HC7. Basically, the same guts in a professional package for about $500 bucks more. Seems like it would make a great backup camera. What happened to the full size 250 HDV replacement? I would imagine that has to be announced soon.


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