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-   -   First shoot, first impressions for HVR-HD1000 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-hvr-hd1000/110860-first-shoot-first-impressions-hvr-hd1000.html)

William Hohauser December 23rd, 2007 11:08 PM

First shoot, first impressions for HVR-HD1000
 
I unexpectedly received my HD1000 on Friday and instead of a rental I was contemplating I put it to use this weekend as a second camera for a interview and performance shoot. While this isn't a complete review (I'll have to do that tomorrow after I edit the footage and comparing it to my 3 chip HD camera), here is a list of my first impressions.

Positives:

1) Very comfortable on my shoulder. This is well designed although it's quite retro-looking. It really brings back memories of VHS camcorders.

2) Decent lens with a comfortable, responsive zoom toggle when it's hand-held. The toggle is moderately uncomfortable for use with your left hand when the camera is tripod mounted.

3) A decent camera mike which can be removed and replaced with a Beachtek (are they still around?) XLR adapter which works great on this camera.

4) Small but usable viewfinder which actually has a better image than the flip-up LCD.

5) Enough manual control to keep the camera from going off on it's own.

6) Plenty of connections, video and digital.

Negatives:

1) Few on camera controls, everything is controlled by the LCD menu much like the HC5 or HC7. This isn't a real problem in controlled situations, but during a run around shoot, this could be a real headache.

2) There is only one ring on the lens and this shares a multiple of functions; zoom, focus, exposure, shuttle. You have to pick a function on the LCD, adjust and then pick another function. I like manual zoom control but this was pretty much impossible. I set the exposure, switched to manual focus and used the toggle for zooming.

Issues that I haven't made up my mind about yet:

1) A very slight greenish cast in the image. This might be adjustable but I'll work on that in the coming week. It's nothing that I can't fix in the edit.

2) A hollow feel to much of the body. I suspect that much of the camera is empty space. Perhaps the next version can utilize this space for tape storage, extra batteries or even a hard drive.

3) The lens is yet another size so none of my filters from my old cameras work.

That's the thoughts after a day of shooting. I captured a half hour of footage just now and it seems to play fine. The image is really nice on it's own. Tomorrow I'll edit the footage with the other camera (a JVC HD-100, I hear the cries already) and see how it compares. Sorry, can't post any stills, not my project.

Adam Gold December 24th, 2007 02:24 PM

This is great info, thanks. I think more than a few of us are curious about this unit.

Say, the cam didn't come with the manual on CD, did it? If by chance it did, can you post the manual somewhere we can download it?

William Hohauser December 25th, 2007 12:49 AM

I'll let someone else post the manual. It is copyrighted.

After a day of editing here's my second set of impressions.

Color:
Color is very good with a slight cast to the green when compared to a JVC HD-100 set up with the TrueColor parameters as described in the HD100 board. On it's own, one would be hard pressed to see it.

Detail:
Detail is excellent but when compared to the JVC HD100 you can see a slight harshness to the image coming out of the HVR-HD1000. A casual viewer probably would not notice it.

Noise:
I haven't reviewed the edit on a large HDTV yet but there is more noise to the HVR-HD1000 image.

The two cameras mixed very well with a very small amount of color correction to the HVR-HD1000 image. The HD100 image was more robust but otherwise I say it was a success.

A few notes that I over looked in the first post.

Manual Focus:
This was not easy as neither the viewfinder or the LCD give enough detail to assure me that I was truly in focus. Only by zooming in and moving the focus back and forth was I able to figure out where to leave it.

x.y color:
A mysterious function which I didn't turn on is "x.y. color". Sony describes this as an extended color space standard that they are proposing to the video world. The manual doesn't really explain what this means. I'll play around with it this Thursday during another interview shoot and report.

For those who are wondering how I am editing 720 HDV1 with 1080 HDV2 on the same timeline, I am using Final Cut 6 with a sequence set to Apple ProRes 720. Even my four year old dual 2gh G5 plays the video files back with out a hitch although it'll need a good long render before I can make a DVD or anything else.

Ken Hull December 25th, 2007 03:21 AM

William,
An engineer friend of mine who works at Sony once told me they were experimenting with a 6-color standard, to allow defining intense colors "at the unreachable corners" of a 3-color system. So that would allow more highly saturated cyans, magentas, and yellows. This *might* be what "x.y color" is referring to.
I'd like to hear if the HD1000 has indicators for manually setting exposure (zebra? histogram?), mic volume (VU meters?), and focus (peaking?).
Ken Hull

Aaron Winters December 25th, 2007 09:19 AM

What does it weigh? Can't find it's actual weight anywhere on the web.

Adam Gold December 25th, 2007 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Winters (Post 798019)
What does it weigh? Can't find it's actual weight anywhere on the web.

http://www.sony.ca/hdv/HVR-HD1000U_6...000U/spec.html

About 7 pounds with the biggest battery.

Paulo Teixeira December 25th, 2007 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser (Post 797942)
x.y color:
A mysterious function which I didn't turn on is "x.y. color". Sony describes this as an extended color space standard that they are proposing to the video world. The manual doesn't really explain what this means. I'll play around with it this Thursday during another interview shoot and report.

That gives you up to 1.8 times the colors for a more natural image and its currently in HD camcorders from Toshiba and Sony but unless you have one of the newer more expensive TVs from Toshiba, Samsung, Sony, Sharp etc, that also has that feature; your colors may be a bit off when displayed on a standard HD TV.

William Hohauser December 25th, 2007 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hull (Post 797966)
William,
An engineer friend of mine who works at Sony once told me they were experimenting with a 6-color standard, to allow defining intense colors "at the unreachable corners" of a 3-color system. So that would allow more highly saturated cyans, magentas, and yellows. This *might* be what "x.y color" is referring to.
I'd like to hear if the HD1000 has indicators for manually setting exposure (zebra? histogram?), mic volume (VU meters?), and focus (peaking?).
Ken Hull

Thanks for that info. I am planning some non-client owned image tests to post later this week. I'll do some with and without "x.y. color".

Zebra stripes, yes. 70 and 100% options. The others I'll check tomorrow as the camera is at the office. Didn't really need them on the shoot.

Greg Toope December 26th, 2007 09:23 AM

Just picked up my 1000u this morning. Probably wont get a chance to use it today, but ill definitely put it through its paces. And surprisingly it actually has a nice weight to it. Nice bonus.

Brian Tori December 26th, 2007 11:25 AM

Questions:

1. Does the ring also control WB? What choices in WB presets do we have?

2. Does the LCD or Viewfinder display f-stops?

3. Is there a colorbar feature?

Greg Toope December 26th, 2007 12:18 PM

It can record colorbars via menu.

WB seems to only be set via menu. Options are for Auto, indoor, outdoor, and one push.

So far I cant see an f-stop reading, but im going to pick up a memory stick duo tonight, so ill see if i can get the reading to come up when the card is inserted, just like with the Canon HV20.

William Hohauser December 26th, 2007 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Tori (Post 798330)
Questions:

1. Does the ring also control WB? What choices in WB presets do we have?

2. Does the LCD or Viewfinder display f-stops?

3. Is there a colorbar feature?


No f-stops that i could find. Just a mostly useless level bar.

The ring can indeed control the WB functions which are limited to the standard auto, outdoors, indoors and "One Push" which is a standard WB set with a white card. The problem with all the controls in the single ring is that you have to poke the LCD menu several times to get at a specific function before the ring is activated. In certain situations, you are better off letting the camera decide.

William Hohauser December 26th, 2007 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hull (Post 797966)
I'd like to hear if the HD1000 has indicators for manually setting exposure (zebra? histogram?), mic volume (VU meters?), and focus (peaking?).
Ken Hull

Zebra yes.

Histogram, yes. It blocks a small portion of the screen in the lower right. It is a little crude but works.

VU Meters, yes. Stereo with about 15 increments

Focus peaking? Nope but it has a very useful spot focus function that works well with a reasonable amount of light in the image. You can poke the part of the image on the LCD you want in focus and it does it in about 2 seconds. I have experimented with rack focusing this way and it can be done.

By the way Sony uses the term "touch" when they instruct you to use the LCD menus. I prefer the word, "Poke" since with my finger a touch doesn't always seem to activate the function.

Brian Tori December 27th, 2007 08:06 AM

I read in another forum that in order to access the ring functions there is a way to do this with the MANUAL button on the side of the camera as opposed
to always accessing the on screen MENU. Supposedly by holding the MANUAL button for a few seconds you are able to get an onscreen menu whose selections are chosen by turning the ring and finally pressing MANUAL to return. Can someone confirm?

That is disappointing about the F-stops not being available. It makes me wonder why this camera is being included in Sony's Pro line. The exposure BAR reminds me of the HV20 which I used to have.

William Hohauser December 27th, 2007 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Tori (Post 798679)
I read in another forum that in order to access the ring functions there is a way to do this with the MANUAL button on the side of the camera as opposed
to always accessing the on screen MENU. Supposedly by holding the MANUAL button for a few seconds you are able to get an onscreen menu whose selections are chosen by turning the ring and finally pressing MANUAL to return. Can someone confirm?

That is disappointing about the F-stops not being available. It makes me wonder why this camera is being included in Sony's Pro line. The exposure BAR reminds me of the HV20 which I used to have.

This is indeed accurate.

After holding the manual button for about 2 seconds, you get a list of all the functions available with the ring. Pick one by turning the ring, press the manual button again, wait 2 more seconds and you now have control over that function.

The ring also controls a white balance shift function but I would question using it with the LCD or viewfinder.

The manual focus gives you a focal distance readout in meters which can be useful but the ring to focal shift response is so slow it might be hard to use it for artistic rack focuses.

Ervin Farkas December 28th, 2007 10:52 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser (Post 797942)
x.y color: A mysterious function which I didn't turn on is "x.y. color". Sony describes this as an extended color space standard that they are proposing to the video world. The manual doesn't really explain what this means. I'll play around with it this Thursday during another interview shoot and report.

You're probably referring to the new x.v.Color space adopted by Sony and Mitsubishi. "Tokyo, Jan 5, 2006 (JCN) - Sony announced on January 5 that it has prototyped the world's first LCD TV that has supported xvYCC, a new international video color space standard, and is showcasing it at the 2006 International CES in Las Vegas, Nevada."

x.v.Color (official name xvYCC) only works with the latest HDMI 1.3 interface. Basically it extends the color gamut by up to 80% (based on Munsell Color Cascade) compared to the ATSC standard. So far not much programming to watch in xvYCC - neither BlueRay nor HDDVD supports it - so these Sony cameras (the HC7 has it as well) are the first sources to test it. All Sony HDV camcorders with an HDMI interface support xvYCC.

"HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification. With the adoption of Deep Color and the xvYCC color space HDMI 1.3 removes the previous interface-related restrictions on color selection.

By implementing the xvYCC color space standard, HDMI 1.3 removes virtually all limits on color selection and supports 1.8 times as many colors as existing HDTV signals. This is because the xvYCC color space standard defines colors by means of an algorithm that can specify any color in nature. This lets HDTVs display colors more accurately and with more natural and vivid colors. The first TV to use this standard was the Sony Bravia, which premiered at the 2006 CES in Las Vegas." (HDTV Magazine).

William Hohauser December 28th, 2007 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas (Post 799260)
You're probably referring to the new x.v.Color space adopted by Sony and Mitsubishi. "Tokyo, Jan 5, 2006 (JCN) - Sony announced on January 5 that it has prototyped the world's first LCD TV that has supported xvYCC, a new international video color space standard, and is showcasing it at the 2006 International CES in Las Vegas, Nevada."

x.v.Color (official name xvYCC) only works with the latest HDMI 1.3 interface. Basically it extends the color gamut by up to 80% (based on Munsell Color Cascade) compared to the ATSC standard. So far not much programming to watch in xvYCC - neither BlueRay nor HDDVD supports it - so these Sony cameras (the HC7 has it as well) are the first sources to test it. All Sony HDV camcorders with an HDMI interface support xvYCC.

"HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification. With the adoption of Deep Color and the xvYCC color space HDMI 1.3 removes the previous interface-related restrictions on color selection.
............

This is very interesting but since most HD displays are not in line with this color space what are the drawbacks to shooting with it? Is this color space in anyway altered by the editing process? And what if you have to do some color correction? How is it affected by downconverting to SD? Do any of the HDMI capture cards recognized this color space?

The whole thing sounds limited in the ways it can be used at this time.

Jaser Stockert December 28th, 2007 03:40 PM

will this camera be feasible for home interior shooting using natural, incadescent and/or florescent lighting? how is the low light capability? is this camera's low light capability good for real estate videos? thanks.

William Hohauser December 28th, 2007 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaser Stockert (Post 799375)
will this camera be feasible for home interior shooting using natural, incadescent and/or florescent lighting? how is the low light capability? is this camera's low light capability good for real estate videos? thanks.

The low light capability is good for a HD camera due to the single chip. Assuming that your real estate videos are descriptive and not beauty shots (i.e. specially lit and filmed) this camera should work well. My edit room is lit only by two 50 watt compact florescent bulbs and I got a decent shot in here. Maybe my PD-170 is slightly better but not by much.

Jaser Stockert December 28th, 2007 06:23 PM

good to know. thanks william! looks like the perfect low cost professional looking(at least to real estate agents) HD camera. hopefully promax or samy's has one i can take a look at. i think this camera targets to users like myself: wanting a low cost HD camera way under $3000, yet impressing clients by its appearance.

William Hohauser December 29th, 2007 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaser Stockert (Post 799431)
i think this camera targets to users like myself: wanting a low cost HD camera way under $3000, yet impressing clients by its appearance.

That it does. I am more interested in the ergonomics than impressing a client with size but that's what happened with my two shoots this past week.

Greg Toope December 29th, 2007 10:32 PM

Just wondering if anyone who has used this camera has found any gain control? I bought the camera a couple days ago but have yet found any time to play with it. Hopefully I can match the footage from the HD1000u with my little HV20 with no problems.

William Hohauser December 30th, 2007 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Toope (Post 799843)
Just wondering if anyone who has used this camera has found any gain control? I bought the camera a couple days ago but have yet found any time to play with it. Hopefully I can match the footage from the HD1000u with my little HV20 with no problems.

No gain yet found.

"Gain" seems to be missing from the instruction manual which leads me to believe that Sony intends you to use a slower shutter speed for low light situations instead of raised gain. The only mention of low light is either in the "Nightshot" instructions (the green infrared option) or in the "Auto Slow Shutter" descriptions.

I was worried about gain when I mixing it with another camera but it seems that the gain is fixed!

Greg Toope December 30th, 2007 06:32 PM

well that would be fantastic. I would much prefer no gain at all then some kind of AGC.

Gints Klimanis December 31st, 2007 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas (Post 799260)
This lets HDTVs display colors more accurately and with more natural and vivid colors. The first TV to use this standard was the Sony Bravia, which premiered at the 2006 CES in Las Vegas." (HDTV Magazine).

I wonder if this is why the 52" Sony Bravia LCD TV model was tightly tethered to a BluRay and no amount of customer purchase leverage (as in, I won't buy it unless I can see a regular DVD and my Sony Z1 as inputs) would sway any of the sales people. Could it be possible that a special version of the Sony Blu Ray player with its Bravi demo disk (not made available to customer) would handle this color space ? Hmmm.

Jeff Emery January 1st, 2008 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser (Post 799409)
The low light capability is good ... Maybe my PD-170 is slightly better but not by much.

I have a VX2100 which is as sensitive in low light as the PD170. Are you saying this camera can deliver acceptable results on par with the VX2100/ PD170 in lighting conditions like a dim wedding reception hall?

Jeff

William Hohauser January 1st, 2008 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Emery (Post 800953)
I have a VX2100 which is as sensitive in low light as the PD170. Are you saying this camera can deliver acceptable results on par with the VX2100/ PD170 in lighting conditions like a dim wedding reception hall?

Jeff

Let me phrase it a little differently since I overlooked that I had the camera in 1/30th shutter at the time. The picture was of my edit room without anyone moving.

The HD1000 camera is definitely less sensitive then a VX2100/PD170 (same camera guts, different accessories) at 1/60 shutter. I have a good friend who makes her living videotaping weddings and she has resisted upgrading to HD specifically since she would be losing desperately needed light sensitivity in those certain to happen dark event hall situations. Now that Sony seems to be forcing us to use the shutter in place of gain, the comparison is a little hard to make. The quality of the HD1000 image in 1/30th shutter is excellent and I would think most clients would be very happy with the result (looks more like film).

I have a pro color chart on the way and I'll make some test stills at various lighting levels and post them as soon as possible.

Jaser Stockert January 2nd, 2008 12:19 AM

hmmm...1/30 shutter? for home interiors, as stated above, how well would this camera perform at 1/60 shutter? would prefer the smoothness of 1/60 for pans and zooms. thanks again william.

Ron Evans January 2nd, 2008 10:03 AM

I expect it has no gain control just like the HC7. I expect it has auto gain just like the HC7 and all the other Sony consumer cams. Full scale manual exposure is 18db gain, and then each click back will be 15db, 12db, 9 db, 6db,3db,0. You can check this with the data code in playback. I would be surprised if it is anything else as all the Sony's respond in this way in auto. I can never understand why Sony doesn't have these scales visible in record even if independent gain isn't available. By independent I mean set gain at 9db and iris at F4 etc.
Ron Evans

Brian Tori January 2nd, 2008 12:38 PM

A good test of whether or not gain is being applied would be to look at a monitor in a darkened room and open iris all the way. If the image gets noisier than it is most likely using auto gain.

Brian Tori January 2nd, 2008 12:39 PM

Anyone found f-stops yet?

William Hohauser January 2nd, 2008 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Tori (Post 801357)
Anyone found f-stops yet?

Not yet!

I did a comparison between the HD1000 and the PD170 just now and if the exposure bar is set as Ron Evans states (and it certainly seems that way) I got some interesting results. A white piece of paper that is at 80ire on the PD170 (0db, f1.6) is 40 ire on the HD1000 (settings apparently the same as the PD170). To get the same ire reading on the HD1000 I had to up the exposure to what is apparently 15db. At 1/30 shutter I could go down to what is apparently 6db. The lack of f-stop or gain info makes this frustrating. This light is from a 27w single compact bulb about 5 feet from the paper.

The confusion for me is that Sony makes no mention of gain in the manual that I could find (I admit to bad manual reading habits but the index doesn't have gain listed). A visual notch were the gain starts on the on-screen exposure bar would be a great help, just like the notch that tells when you are in digital zoom on the PD170.

I tested the extreme exposure settings and noise becomes evident at the 6db and above settings.

The color chart arrives tomorrow.

Greg Toope January 3rd, 2008 07:25 AM

For those of you that haven't had a chance to actually see the camera. Ive posted a video giving a short tour of the camera. Its just a brief over view. You can find the video at ...

http://www.vimeo.com/467253

Ron Evans January 3rd, 2008 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Hohauser (Post 801579)


I tested the extreme exposure settings and noise becomes evident at the 6db and above settings.

This is about the same as I would judge on my other Sony consumer cams--PC10, TRV50, HC96 and also the AVCHD SR7. For the same level of noise my FX1 would be closer to 15db. I have put little marks on my cameras LCD monitors( and guess roughly for viewfinder use) to make sure I don't go past 6db.

Ron Evans

David Stoneburner January 3rd, 2008 02:46 PM

Nice video Greg, thanks. I look forward to seeing some actual footage.

William Hohauser January 3rd, 2008 04:30 PM

Color Chart jpegs
 
5 Attachment(s)
Here are some color charts for you to look at and make your own judgements.

For comparision one jpeg is for the PD170 at 0db f6.8 which is where the auto exposure set itself.

The first HD1000 jpeg (test-2) is the camera shooting the white balance card after the white set.

The second jpeg is of the color chart as the camera set the exposure. It seems to be between f2.8 and f4. It is hard to tell especially since the manual exposure will not let me go to the same exposure the auto exposure can go to. It's also hard to tell what the increments are.

The third jpeg is of a resolution chart which I couldn't get square with the camera enough but it should give an idea.

The fourth is a (blurry) photo of the LCD while the camera is shooting the chart in "test-3" just so you get an idea of the LCD overscan which is considerable.

Jeff Emery January 3rd, 2008 06:52 PM

Greg,
That's a great video. Thanks. I'm looking forward to more of your videos on the camera and especially some low light results.

Jeff

Greg Toope January 3rd, 2008 07:12 PM

Thanks. I was thinking about going out tonight to do some test shooting but its a little cold outside (about -25 Celsius). But i'll definitely post some more videos as soon as I get some footage.

Equipment: Sony HVR-HD1000U, Canon HV20, JVC GY-HD1U, PowerMac G5 dual 2.7ghz, 24" iMac 2.16ghz C2D, Macbook 1.83ghz CoreDuo.

http://www.sandstormstudios.com

Duane Steiner January 6th, 2008 05:09 PM

Any more updates/observations from those who have gotten the camera? Thanks.

Daniel Rabranque January 8th, 2008 08:51 PM

Hello and Happy New Year 2008,

I am french, HVR-HD1000 interests me very much, even if it is HC7 in a big box! The beast is its weight, 3.0Kg (6 lbs 10 oz) with NP-F570! My god, how SONY has done for this weight, it must lead or the carcass is super strong!

Thank you very much for members of this site. Especially William Hohauser gives us his remarks after the tests "with the star of the day" HVR-HD1000.

I had a CCD-V5000, I am nostalgic camcorders shoulder.
At my age, 54 years, I began to tremble !
Just kidding, but the only good rushes I have seen, with small cam, were all made on a tripod. Otherwise, it moves too! Ok boys, behind the camera there was not as champions!

I do not marriage or official reports. I am a good amateur, very mindful of the clear and beautiful pictures framed !

I have questions, please William or another, for the answers.

What is really the quality of the images in broad daylight with the HD1000?

By comparison, the images of the FX7 are better or worse than the HD1000?

Can you confirm that the only "manual" controls existing HD1000 are:
-- Camera Control Ring (with a choice of a single control)
-- Nigth shot
-- Back ligth

The very big problem in France, the HVR-HD1000E is 2200 = $ 3237 !!!!!!

The HC7 is 890! The crate's HVR-HD1000 is very very very expensive to France !!!!! I am not "a dove", I do not buy the HD1000E.

I am for a quick purchase, the following models HC7, HV20, FX7 and DVX102B. I rarely filmed in low light. The sound with mini-jack is enough for me. But, I often manual adjustments for the best video quality

Please, which, of these 4 camcorders, provides the best images in HD and SD? Thank you very much for your answers.

In addition to this camcorder, I will take the GV-HD700 WALKMAN for reading and first-assembly. I make my assenbly and editing on the PC after capture by I-Link.

Thank you very much for your answers.

Daniel

PS) I speak a little and I read very little English. I have translated the forum "Sony HVR-HD1000" with Google! So boys, Google is not known translate large spelling and expressions popular in the world of video! I suffered but I understood!


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