How does progressive resolution compare to interlaced? at DVinfo.net
DV Info Net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7

Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7
Pro and consumer versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 14th, 2007, 09:00 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Conway, NH
Posts: 574
How does progressive resolution compare to interlaced?

Is there any difference in resolution between 30p and 60i on this camera? Can Final Cut Pro "revert" the 30p/24p pulldown format to a native 30p/24p, or must it stay as a 60i signal with pulldown? Is there any reason to revert it back to native 30p/24p in the first place?
Bill Edmunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2007, 05:02 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Conway, NH
Posts: 574
Anyone? Basically, I'm trying to compare the V1u to the Canon A1, which has a faux-progressive feature and reduces resolution by about 10%.
Bill Edmunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 1,961
I don't think there is an appreciable resolution difference. As you may know, the V1 always records in a 60i format but you could convert that to a progressive format depending on your software. I don't use FCP and haven't even done it yet in Vegas. I'm playing with some 30P footage now, so I'll experiment some time in the near future. I'm sure someone else will comment before I get around to testing though.
Marcus Marchesseault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2007, 06:02 PM   #4
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Stockton, UT
Posts: 5,648
There is nothing "faux" about how either Canon or Sony place their 24p stream in a 60i package.
it's not a "convert" to 24p, it's "extract the progressive frames from the 60i package" process. There are flags/indicators in the 60i stream instructing the NLE which frames to remove.
Progressive has greater resolution by nature of what it is. Interlaced at identical framerates is smoother motion. ie; a 30p image will have greater resolution than its 60i counterpart, but the 60i counterpart will have smoother motion as a result of having twice the number of opportunities to record/display motion.
__________________
Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot
Author, producer, composer
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
http://www.vasst.com
Douglas Spotted Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2007, 06:34 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Conway, NH
Posts: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle View Post
There is nothing "faux" about how either Canon or Sony place their 24p stream in a 60i package.
I know the Sony's isn't a faux progressive image, but I was under the impression that the Canon's isn't true progressive. I do know that the Canon's 24f and 30f modes do not boast the resolution of its 60i image.
[moderator-link deleted]

Last edited by Douglas Spotted Eagle; September 15th, 2007 at 06:40 PM. Reason: link to camcorderinfo.com
Bill Edmunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 02:39 AM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
Bill,

Seems like very few people really know how the 30/25F is arrived at with Canon, the imagers being interlaced - the truth is you cannot see a resolution drop from 50/60i with your naked eye.

With Sony V1, you have true progressive imagers but the progressive picture is also written within the interlaced stream for compatibiliy reasons, thus becoming the 30/25PsF (progressive segmented frames). Of course both Sony and Canon in their US models also have the 24p mode, which is written within the 60i stream and employs the pulldown technique.

As to the resolution of the V1 in progressive, some tests have suggested that while even better than interlaced in good lighting conditions, it falls somewhat with gain over 9dB due to noise reduction algorithm kicking in. I personally try to never exceed 9dB of gain anyway, so 99% of my footage is progressive (25PsF), and I'm absolutely satisfied with the quality.


And - progressive or not - my opinion is that the V1 gives a sharper picture generally than the Canon A1.
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; September 16th, 2007 at 07:26 AM.
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 08:12 AM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Bill,

Seems like very few people really know how the 30/25F is arrived at with Canon, the imagers being interlaced - the truth is you cannot see a resolution drop from 50/60i with your naked eye.
That's weird considering that there's a thread in the xh a1 category about stairstepping in 25p material. That would mean that there's a visible resolution drop.
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 08:41 AM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
Haven't seen that thread, but can assure you there's nothing like stair-stepping in the Canon 25F mode - had it for a couple of weeks and tested thoroughly.
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 09:28 AM   #9
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,570
One 'problem' with the V1P in progressive is you could argue it has too much vertical resolution. This can lead to some issues with display devices that don't work out that it's 25PsF and display it as 50i. Hardly the cameras fault though and the general public see so much line twitter in downscaled HD anyway and never seem to notice.
Bob Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 09:35 AM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Grant View Post
One 'problem' with the V1P in progressive is you could argue it has too much vertical resolution. This can lead to some issues with display devices that don't work out that it's 25PsF and display it as 50i. Hardly the cameras fault though and the general public see so much line twitter in downscaled HD anyway and never seem to notice.
Oh, this has been so exhaustively discussed between you, Steve and myself that I didn't event want to mention it:) Definitely a display problem!
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2007, 01:41 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Haven't seen that thread, but can assure you there's nothing like stair-stepping in the Canon 25F mode - had it for a couple of weeks and tested thoroughly.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=103233
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2007, 06:36 AM   #12
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
C'mon Mikko - do you really consider these branches' "jaggies" a major flaw? Can you actually see them in the video (as opposed to still frames, perhaps blown up with PS)?
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2007, 03:48 AM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
Well if I do a basic deinterlace then the video will have the same "small jaggies". So yes, I consider it an issue. Why use 25f when I can just do the same in post?
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2007, 04:04 AM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
I guess you've got a point here - the Canon's 25F must be obtained through some smart in-camera deinterlacing...But it's very smart indeed:

- real-time performance (how long does it take to deiterlace in your NLE?)
- no visible resolution drop (some tests claim it to be 10-12%; again, compare it to your NLE performance)

I'm not a Canon fanboy (to the contrary - see my sig) - but I must admit the 25F is really very, very clever.
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; September 18th, 2007 at 04:41 AM.
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2007, 06:02 AM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: WestChazy, NY
Posts: 291
One of the original questions in this post is still unanswered and I for one am curious about it: If you shoot in 30p, how do you handle it in post? I know there is no pull down needed, but since it's "wrapped" in a 60i stream, does it need anything done to it? Do you edit in a 60i timeline?
Paul Frederick is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY USA

Scan Computers Int. Ltd.
+44 0871-472-4747
Bolton, Lancashire UK


DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-V1 / HDR-FX7

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:22 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network