25p flaw of the V1 E model is official?

[Ing Poh Hii]

ha ha haa.. thanks a lot DSE, in this case you can never switch off OIS... mm.. otherwise the manual should clear mention "user can't switch the OIS off completely". Then what is the point to have the switch ? that is clearly a flaw design :<.

For this I am with you : ).

Yes, in many case the manual is nothing reliable (that is why i love this forum). And in Malaysia, I have no such luxury to ask either Sony or Canon vendors give me a few trial before buying the camera, I don't even have 30 days money back guarantee, not even 1 day... it is once sold non-returnable.

And today I have just paid RM14000 (USD 3900) to get an A1, it is on the hand of my father & brother now, according to them, the len is like a beautiful tank, they are still playing it, so far so good (since they don't need to jump off aircraft..), hopefully there is no more flaw design other then this OIS stuff.

ta~

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Yes, definitely - while the progressive pictures are clearly sharper, the edges do show some stairstepping. However, if this is how OUR progressive 25p is gonna look after the fix - I'll be satisfied. Let's keep fingers crossed!

Just one more doubt: we haven't seen the actual video, only the still grabs. If those stairsteps are crawling, that's another matter....But then, the V1U owners would have complained about it already!

It's quite possible those artifacts are caused by the NLE not handling the progressive footage correctly

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ing Poh Hii

ha ha haa.. thanks a lot DSE, in this case you can never switch off OIS... mm.. otherwise the manual should clear mention "user can't switch the OIS off completely". Then what is the point to have the switch ? that is clearly a flaw design :<.

For this I am with you : ).

Yes, in many case the manual is nothing reliable (that is why i love this forum). And in Malaysia, I have no such luxury to ask either Sony or Canon vendors give me a few trial before buying the camera, I don't even have 30 days money back guarantee, not even 1 day... it is once sold non-returnable.

And today I have just paid RM14000 (USD 3900) to get an A1, it is on the hand of my father & brother now, according to them, the len is like a beautiful tank, they are still playing it, so far so good (since they don't need to jump off aircraft..), hopefully there is no more flaw design other then this OIS stuff.

ta~

Derek Yeo, in Singapore, has posted images from the V1, and has also confirmed issues with the A1 for some uses.

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

It's quite possible those artifacts are caused by the NLE not handling the progressive footage correctly

This is more likely than not. Few NLE's can manage this footage correctly at this point in time. They'll all be caught up soon, but at the moment, NLE options are very limited. Just because the NLE can manage DVX footage correctly doesn't mean it can handle GOP 24p correctly.

[Ing Poh Hii]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Derek Yeo, in Singapore, has posted images from the V1, and has also confirmed issues with the A1 for some uses.

Please can you direct me to the correct URL, I googled "Derek Yeo" and found the website of videolifestyle.com, he made some quick reviews of various Sony camcorders and one Canon consumer camcorder, but I can't find the OIS issue from his articles.

ta~

[Michael Phillips]

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges. The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges. The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

That sharp then fuzzy edge is due to interpolation.

An image would be useful to demonstrate the issue as you see it. The image doesn't necessarily have to me moving.

Please post a grab.

TT

[Raymond Toussaint]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

The OIS isn't completely user-controlled. Canon tech support has said that they don't feel very many users are using the camcorders under these high-motion situations, and therefore don't see this as a problem.

Whether you think it's pointless to blame the OIS or not, it cannot be used in my particular needs, at all, due to the OIS that stays active even though it has been manually disengaged. The OIS circuit/system in the HV10 is the same one as found in the A1.

I've worked with both, I own an HV10 and borrowed an A1 for a week.

If you don't shoot extreme sports, don't shoot from bouncing vehicles, don't shoot from ATVs, don't jump out of aircraft, and don't shoot from trotting horseback, then these cams will work wonderfully for you.
You'll not figure that out if you're only reading manuals vs actual use.

You can knock off the OIS system on the Canon HV-A1 and G1, you can shoot bumpy rides with it. I know a guy -this is reality- that is only shooting bumpy scatemovies with the A1. No problem, he owns the cam this is no borrowed thing.

Show me evidence that the OIS system in the palmcorder HV10 and A1 is the same, that you can't manually completely turn it off. Where is that stated? Who is talking?

[Raymond Toussaint]

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges.

The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

This crawling report shows similarities to the other report don't you think? If you can post a small .mt2 that would be fantastic. I think we have more reports coming up soon.

[Michael Phillips]

Here is a couple of images. Note the top of the TV screen. The blur is panning across the screen.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

All I'm seeing are some information-challenged screen grabs. Your aspect ratio is not accurate on whatever camera you shot this with.
Shooting something that has clean edges with contrast might be of use? If you're trying to shoot the television screen displaying whatever you're shooting, shoot clean edges, use your still cam to zoom in deep on the edges, and then photograph that. It still won't show much useful information, but it at least will demonstrate what your television is doing to the image.
Dang, I wish my house was as clean as yours!

Originally Posted by Raymond Toussaint

Show me evidence that the OIS system in the palmcorder HV10 and A1 is the same, that you can't manually completely turn it off. Where is that stated? Who is talking?

Since I don't care for the inference that I'm not being truthful, I'll leave it to someone else to share the same information provided to me both on and off tradeshow floor, that the image stabilization software is identical in the two camcorders. Not to mention the fact that I've posted footage from both, and they look identical in terms of shakey image under duress. I'm as much referring to what I've experienced with my own eyes and experiences, not from what "someone I know told me."
This thread has gotten long enough, and continues to stray in too many directions (part of which I'm guilty for myself) so methinks it's about time to close it if we can't stay on topic.

[Michael Phillips]

This was just screen grabs using Nero as I am having trouble with Vegas reading my M2T's. These were captured with Vegas but I could not get them on the timeline to do a screen grab. The ratio is nero's doing,I did not have time to adjust.
Michael

[Tom Roper]

I think Mike's talking about the jaggies along the top edge of the bezel.

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

This was just screen grabs using Nero as I am having trouble with Vegas reading my M2T's. These were captured with Vegas but I could not get them on the timeline to do a screen grab. The ratio is nero's doing,I did not have time to adjust.
Michael

Well the problem with those images is aliasing, nothing to do with the camera I suspect. I can make the problem worse or better by just doing a crude rescaling. That it's being displayed at the wrong AR is probably what caused it. Any image with a strong diagonal line in it will suffer from exactly this problem when scaled without AA and/or bicubic sampling.
This would also explain the issue with the a plasma screen that's not native 1080. Also the potentialy higher res of the progressive frame will make matters more obvious.
I sadly spend a lot of time having to watch HD broadcasts on an attrocious BRAVIA Sony LCD TV, this and a large number of other artifacts appear on that device that I know are not in the HD source or in the broadcast.

I think this is going to be the challenge with HD for a while, it looks so good on the right gear and can look worse than SD on poor "HD" gear.

[Zsolt Gordos]

Sony support just called me to arrange the collection of my cam for the fix. Apparently they are not aware of the newly discussed "marching ants" phenomenon.

I would be great to see further info and experience on this matter.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

Here is a couple of images. Note the top of the TV screen. The blur is panning across the screen.

Sounds to me this phenomenon you see is quite normal for HDV material. A moving image like a pan causes the image to soften anyway thus reducing the visibility of any stairsteps until the camera comes to rest.

Having read Bob's message re:Bravia HDTV artefacts I have a feeling the marching ants is a phenomenon of the viewing device.

The 25P recorded by the V1E is interlaced material and is the viewing device is unaware how to deal with Progressive material encoded in an Interlaced stream. The HDTV in question is probably de-interlacing the 25P which could easily account for marching ants type artefacts seen. How these HDTVs de-interlace 50i material is a black art and differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

TT