How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Just curious how much longer you plan to keep using your Z5 before considering it obsulete and upgrading to either tapeless, or better quality (new generation) cam? Some of these new cams out there are really nice. I'm not seeking advice, just your thoughts where the Z5 sits with newer technology cams...

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

With the integrated MRC, the Z5 is tapeless. It has features that have been removed from the NX5. I consider it the pinnacle of affordable pro HDV tape cams from Sony and for me, I have no plans to replace the four I own unless I move to a whole new format. Like I win the lottery and can afford four new EX3s....

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Was thinking exactly the same thing but with the MRC it's still great pics for $5K. THe XLR out, the lens range and choice of accessories make it too good to change over yet. I suppose you could jump the gun and get rid of it as tape is pretty well dead, but what do you replace it with - nothing I've seen for the money and quality.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

I think there's a nice selection of 3-ring, high zoom 3-chip 1/3" replacements if you don't want to go the MRC route to solid state. In the $3-4K range there's the HDR-AX2000, AG-AC130, HXR-NX5U and AG-AC160.

The Z5 HDV market segment is now AVCHD. You have to go above $5k to step up in CODEC

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

I am considering to upgrade from my z5u but can't find anything that can do the job for me as good as this camera does. z5u is ideal for stage productions as a stationary camera. Never used it in tapeless mode (lack of MRC) and have been getting drop outs more often recently.
I like this camera and not sure if I should get MRC (another 1K investment with cards) or sell it and go tapeless.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Looking at B&H the Z5's seem to have dropped at least $500 in price lately and the MRC is only $800, so second hand it may not be worth selling, but using as a second cam. Most of my stuff is for webmedia and non-broadcast, so for me it's brilliant, easy, reliable - I'm not going to buy and sell same for same. If you're working towards a broadcast format then obviously you need to step up, but otherwise I'd wait.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

i agree 110% with adam's comments....

i don't see any alternative in my situation (i require tape for major clients and national broadcasters), though i do shoot with a mrc as well.

i had a play with some other higher end cameras, but no tape, no go, and to be perfectly honest, the pics out of the z5 are simply stunning - as would be any hd pics shot correctly ;-)

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

That's good feedback about the Z5. Pretty amazing that given all the new cams it is still as good as it is. Per the NX5U, I thought they added features, like GPS, Tapeless, H/d, Touchscreen, AVCHD and the rest of the cam was essentially the same layout and features. What doesn't the NX have vs the Z5?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

One that comes immediately to mind is Shot Transition, which seems like a silly useless feature, but it's the only way to get a slow creeping zoom over 90 seconds or so, which we use quite a bit in concerts. There are a couple of others mentioned in the early NX5 threads, as I recall, but they don't come immediately to mind.

If I remember them I'll post links.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

The z5 makes fabulous images as it is.

To extend its life for just about ever why not record off the hdmi for even better quality. I have seen some of this footage and you'd have to spend big bucks to top it!!!

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Jvc hm150?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

wouldn't give jvc equipment a second look. i know mike has some jvc cameras he's happy with, but my experience of jvc equipment has been abysmal, from the knobs falling off their pro d7 vtrs and tacky knobs on their pro cameras, through to proprietary .mod files and wayward crt colour monitors....

i always felt (feel) that they could never quite position themselves, so opted to try and cover all bases by producing feature rich 'cheap and tacky' equipment.

in 40+ years of working in broadcast tv i have never seen jvc equipment used 'professionally' in a tv studio or serious post facility.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

If you're really happy with the camera and want to extend the life, especially if starting to get more dropouts, take a look at the Atomos Ninja, will take HDMI out of camera prior to compression and record as 4:2:2 ProRes for much better result than HDV tape (or same format on MRC unit).

Jeff Pulera

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Having owned the Z-5, a great camera. I have now replaced it with the Panasonic AG AC-130. WOW!!!!

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Define "Wow!" (in detail)

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

yes, please do ;-)

it's been my experience over the years that most cameras in any particular class can be capable of giving stunning pics GIVEN the right lighting, etc.,

this held true in the days of analogue, and now digital.

the 'wow' factor usually comes with GOOD glass and bigger sensors, both of which cost proportionally more than the camera in the class below.

i've also read people praising avchd over hdv - to all intents and purposes they are simply codecs recording 0's + 1's, and not like betacam vs vhs.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

As long as it keeps on ticking, I'm sticking.
Since day one, I've used and recorded to a Focus Enhancements HDD recorder. It gives me redundancy and a much faster workflow. The tape, then, is just a backup. Having gotten used to that and with falling prices, I will probably get an HDMI recorder like a Convergent or Atomos. The price for the units, from $1200 to $1500 and I get an even better image, tapeless or driveless media, a redundant backup and fast workflow. You would have to spend much more to get the same features and abilities. Again, when you use a tapeless acquisition, the tape becomes the backup. All you have to do is lose a flash card or get a corrupted file and you'll understand immediately the value of redundancy.

I've grown to really like the 20x range of the lens which I don't have to change and, therefore, doesn't present back-focus problems or sensor contamination.

Certainly any new camera I'll have to consider but I've been shooting stuff on a DSLR which provides great B-roll. It seems a camera "upgrade" is the least of worries these days.

Dave

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Is there much difference in quality between recording to MRC1 and via HDMI to a HDD like Atomos?
Would you get both? I already have the MRC! and pics are very sharp and clean.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

me too?

as chris asks, how much 'better' is hdmi output. is it chalk and cheese, or simply specs?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

My understanding is the resolution is the same, but the color depth isn't. It's uncompressed. Helpful if you are doing a lot of grading in post. Otherwise useless.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

I don't believe the resolution is the same (MRC1K vs HDMI). The MRC1K simply records whatever comes out of the Firewire port which is either standard-def DV, or 1440x1080 HDV (with a 1.3333 pixel aspect ratio to make a 16:9 image).

The output of the HDMI port however is true 1920x1080 straight off the camera's sensors hence is higher res and well as better colour.

What you then record that output on will determine if the recording is better than a file from the MRC1K

Regards
Dave

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

The chip in the Z5 isn't capable of 1920 x 1080. It's 1440. Page 129 (126 for the Z5E).

Which by the way is also true for the NX5.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

So would you say the difference is negligible?
I suppose the final display would also play a part - if it was for broadcast or lets say cinema release. If it's for corprporate or webmedia, would you see any difference ?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Adam, I don't see this about the NX5 on the Sony product page. Where did you see that the NX5 is 1440x1080?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

These are the different recording rates for the NX5U from the B&H specifications page:

AVCHD FX (24Mbps) 1920 x 1080/60i
AVCHD FH (17Mbps) 1920 x 1080/60i
AVCHD HQ (9Mbps) 1440 x 1080/60i
AVCHD LP (5Mbps) 1440 x 1080/60i
AVCHD FX (24Mbps) 1920 x 1080/24p
AVCHD FH (17Mbps) 1920 x 1080/24p
AVCHD FX (24Mbps) 1920 x 1080/30p
AVCHD FH (17Mbps) 1920 x 1080/30p
AVCHD FX (24Mbps) 1280 x 720/60p
AVCHD FH (17Mbps) 1280 x 720/60p
MPEG2 SD HQ (9Mbps) 720 x 480/60i
MPEG2 SD HQ (9Mbps) 720 x 480/60i (24p Scan)
MPEG2 SD HQ (9Mbps) 720 x 480/60i (30p Scan)

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Read the specs in the manual. There aren't enough pixels on the chip to actually be 1920 x 1080. It's roughly the same as the Z5, which is 1440 x 810. I'm sure you can upscale or interpolate the data to simulate those resolutions, but they're not coming natively off the chip, based on the way it's been explained to me.

But I could be completely misunderstanding how these magic boxes work.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

to confirm adam's pixel count:

Imaging device: 3-chip 1/3-inch type Exmor CMOS with ClearVid pixel array
Effective picture elements: Approx. 1,037,000 pixels with ClearVid array

about half full hd

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

I stand corrected and apologise for the duff info.

Regards
Dave

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Adam, did you mean 1440 x 1080?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

No. The manual says 1440 x 810.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Did anyone have a definitive answer to which is higher quality - the atomos HDD via HDMI or the MRC1 ?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Cannot say I agree with this at all.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

I do ;-)

DV video is 25Mbps. Now, 1080i HDV is being recorded to the SAME TAPE. How is that possible, when a 1440x1080 frame of video has 5x the info of DV video? COMPRESSION! Doesn't matter if you have a $500 HDV camera, or a $5000 HDV camera with much better optics and sensors - in the end, HDV compression is "throwing away" a huge amount of picture quality.

HDV records at 25Mbps using Long-GOP MPEG-2 compression with 4:2:0 color, which discards half the color info that you would've had with a 4:2:2 recording. HDV only records two FULL frames of video each second - the remaining frames record only partial image data - basically just the changes occurring in each frame compared to the complete reference frame. Therefore, only a small fraction of what you shot actually gets recorded. There is a lot of guessing and patching things together with the HDV codec, and with movement and detail, the image can break down rather quickly with a lot of artifacting.

Have you ever noticed that when you get a dropout with HDV, that it takes out at least 15 frames of video - a full half second? That's because all the frames in the GOP (Group of Pictures) need to reference one another for playback and if one frame gets corrupted, it takes all its neighbors with it.

Regardless of how many pixels are on your 1080i HDV camcorder's image sensor, when shooting live the camera will output a video signal via HDMI at 1920x1080, before any compression takes place. Therefore, if you connect the Ninja or similar device, you have the opportunity to capture a MUCH better image than if you let the camera apply HDV compression, retaining the color, detail and clarity that the sensor saw.

Ninja records directly to the Apple ProRes codec using 10-bit 4:2:2 color, at one of three quality settings - LT at 100Mbps, 422 at 150, or HQ at 220. This will squeeze every possible bit of quality out of your camera, without the HDV codec hurting or limiting the image quality.

One could just as well connect a laptop computer with a capture card in the field and get similar results, but of course you lose the portability factor of the Ninja.

I have shot stage plays and dance recitals with the Ninja using my Sony HDV camera at 1080i, simultaneously recording to HDV tape and ProRes. I put both clips in my Adobe Premiere CS5 timeline so I could compare image quality and there is a very definite difference!

To further compare, I grabbed stills from the HDV and ProRes clips (of the same frame) and layered them in Photoshop. I use the Zoom tool to blow up an area of interest, and then toggled back and forth and the difference is very apparent when viewed that way.

In areas of similar color, HDV will simply create large blocks of color in just a few different shades, while the same area in the ProRes clip is made up of individual pixels on many shades, showing fine details apparent that are soft and muddy, if not entirely gone, with HDV.

I hope this answers the question. Yes, you CAN get much better quality out of your current camera. I don't have a laptop, but actually took my desktop PC to an all-day shoot and connected the HDMI out from the HDV camera into my Matrox MXO2 Mini capture device and captured direct to the computer hard drive in the Matrox MPEG-2 I-Frame codec at 125Mbps with 4:2:2 color, and this saved me many hours of capture time as well as providing a better image quality. So it doesn't have to be Ninja, but use anything you can to get away from HDV compression if you have the opportunity. Color correction, keying and compositing work will all benefit, in addition to a better image overall.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

How is an external hd like the Ninja like in terms of portability anf field use? Is there a boot up time? Battery life? I wonder how well it would work for run and gun shooting where the cam is turned on/off for clips as needed. Otherwise I can see the 442 would be great.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Thanks Jeff that is an encyclopedic answer - appreciate it. So there sounds like a significant difference between the MRC1 recorder and a HDD device via HDMI.
Finally, did you have any problems using pro-res on your PPro Cs5 timeline ?
And yes I would also be very interested to hear about the poratbility and flexibility of field recording with a device like Ninja.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

Not to mention that 4:4:2 is the MINIMUM requirements for certain broadcast outlets, if that it a direction you think your work might someday end up at. I'm so glad this came up about the 442 out of the HDMI. Something I think I will explore more. I was thinking about buying a MRC1. Would really like to hear more about the field usability and any unique hassles of a H/D recorder. Do some of these recorders start/stop automatically when it senses a signal?

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

i've been very happy with my mrc1 (though i always shoot to tape as well for instant archiving). i bought a couple of 16gb sandisks as recommended in this forum, and which have worked flawlessly for a couple of years now. however, i just bough an adata 32gb cf card for about $80 which has worked without problem so far.

as for the op thread - yes, you can get 4:2:2 out of hdmi, but in all honesty what for? ok. if you're green screening, or likely to be doing some seriously HEAVY cc'ing and post there might be justification, but for everyday projects (and a lot of mine end up on tv) i really think it completely unnecessary.

i shoot for a couple of national broadcasters and they're happy enough with hdv...

of course, if i were embarking on a full blown tv production i'd hire a proper hd camera and use my z5 as b-roll.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

The Ninja has LANC ports on it, haven't tried it though since my Sony FX7 HDV and Canon HV20 lack LANC. The new Atomos Samurai with SDI in/out also has LANC jacks, but in addition, there are a few different methods of triggering that unit through the SDI stream, based on time code and other factors.

I've only used the Ninja for long tripod shoots and have not done any "run and gun" - was using demo unit from the shop for some big stage projects I had to shoot. In my situation, I would need to physically activate Ninja recording, so I don't think it would be great for shooting all my 5-second pre-ceremony shots, unless I just let it run and cut it up later. Nice thing about the long shoots in not having to change HDV tapes mid-performance!

Regarding the importance of 4:2:2 - ok, forget about color for a moment, HDV compression is still nasty and the ProRes footage is MUCH cleaner. I guess one wouldn't realize the difference until comparing side by side. I've shot enough HDV footage over the last 4 years to know firsthand how good, and how bad, HDV can look. Lock down shot at ceremony looks good. Dance footage with flashing lights and strobes = bad news, block city!

The ProRes clips captured by Ninja work fine in CS5 and CS5.5 (I use PC versions). There was an issue with Premiere and ProRes clips with 4-channel audio, but Adobe fixed this in CS5.5 with a recent update. Note that the 2-channel clips were always fine. If you have QuickTime installed on the PC, you already have the ProRes codec, nothing else to buy or install, and of course ProRes is fully supported on Macs.

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

The FX7 certainly has a LANC port. But the MRC is controlled via FW; if you shoot with a tape in the cam, it reads the START/STOP signal automatically and follows suit as long as you have it in FOLLOW mode. If you shoot without a tape, you must use the controls on the MRC itself.

Re: How much longer to keep the Z5?
 

To Jeff or anyone else in the know: I am seriously thinking about getting the Atomos Ninja. Using Premiere Pro 5.5 (Windows) with Matrox Mini, can I import the ProRes footage from Ninja directly into a Matrox HDV project, or do I have to convert the footage to Matrox HDV codec first? Also, is ProRes LT good enough to match already existing HDV footage on the timeline or do you need to use ProRes 4:2:2 or ProRes HQ to get as good or better quality? Basically, which of these codecs best match the HDV footage (say, from 2 other camers shooting HDV), at least until I can afford to purchase numerous Ninja's?