I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hey Gentlemen,

I have received my new EA50M a few days ago. I will post more information and footage when time allows. Right now I am buried in post production. I have not tested the two cameras yet.

Some quick initial impressions:

Weird stuff – I will get this out of the way first. When I unpacked it I noticed the ID plate on the bottom of the camera still says Model # EA50U. The invoice says EA50M and the serial numbers match. I wondered if they sent me the old model with a “G” lens on it? Nope, it is the EA50M, it defiantly has a different sensor in it. That might not be all. Get this, when I fired it up my first reaction to the viewfinder was OMG they changed the sensor a lot. No again. The dramatic change I see is on the LCD screen. When you go to post the image you shoot is not as dramatically different as the LCD would have you believe. I expected the LCDs to be the same but these two are not. The new one has a beautiful image on it. It looks like an EA50 profile with pumped up saturation and color but it is misleading. That’s not what it shoots. I don’t know what that means? There are no settings other than normal and bright unless I am missing something. Is it a new LCD? I don’t know, it is a big difference.? I do know the two sensors are different as we expected, but I will let you see for yourself when I shoot test footage.

I was also skeptical about the new 18-105mm F4 “G” lens. Not anymore but I will tell you more after I have used it. It is a BIG step up from a kit lens.

I know some of you guys are hoping I can shed some light on exactly what changed with this model because there is so little information available on it. I will try but for now I have a lot of questions myself. When I am able to post footage maybe we can figure it out together.

More to follow,

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Awesome Steve

I think all the enthusiasts here will appreciate your comments but so far they seem to be confusing so we will wait until you have a gap in your bust schedule for your practical test? Sounds like Sony have turned up the LCD brightness to make it appear that the new sensor is really good!! That does have it's advantages as you can see the subject better and maybe peaking is also clearer.

No rush but we will wait with bated breath!!

Chris

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

please, just make sure EVERY settings on them are the same. mainly color settings.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Awesome and thank you!

I mainly wonder how the original EA5U at full wide f/3.5 compares to low light against the new EA50M at full wide at f/4.0.
I fully expect the M version to be better at low light if any zoom is involved since the U quickly loses light once any zoom is applied

And how aliasing and moire compare

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Steve I'm also curious as to your findings comparing the old EA50H and EA50M.

I just purchased a EA50M today, but don;t have the EA50H to compare it to.
I will though be sharing my findings about the camera from a fresh perspective.

I currently shoot with Sony NX5Us and some video and photos with Canon 60D.

I'll be using some of my EF lenses (Canon 50mm 1.4, Tamron 17-50mm Di VC 2.8, Rokinon 85mm 1.4, and Sigma 18-200 3.5-6.3 (slow lens) with Metabones adapter as well as the stock 18-105 f4 lens.

Funny that I think I saw Chris call this lens slower than the older stock lens. I would actually call this a faster lens due to the fact that it's a constant f4 aperture. While the older lens, while 3.5 stops down to 5.6 at full zoom.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Yeah the EA50M lens is slower at full wide (3.5 vs 4.0), but as you know the 18-200 quickly loses light as soon as you zoom so it's not at f/3.5 very long. If the "M" does indeed have a better sensor than it should be noticably better coupled with the constant 4.0 lens. But most of us are skeptical about the sensor really being differnent. Steven is kind enough to do some tests as time allows.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hi Guys

That's a technical quandary actually ! The new lens is slower at wide but heaps faster at full zoom so what would you call it ? It's definitely a faster lens at full zoom (even at 105mm I think the stock lens will be a bit worse than F4 ...as far as I remember zooming half way seemed to be closer to F5 and at 200 it was definitely F6.3 .... Unless you are always full wide, the 18-200 would very quickly lose the small advantage it has.

Waiting for Steve to give us a comparison now between his old EA-50U and the new EA-50M

Chris

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

I will report some test results tomorrow. I have test video to show you. I do not have good news about the EA50M having an improved sensor!

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Also, Michael (when it arrives) and anyone else that has an EA50M, please look at the ID plate on the bottom of the camera where the serial number is and tell me the "model number". Mine says EA50U. I want to know if anyone has one that says EA50M. Very important to me thank you.

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hello Gentlemen,
I went looking for trouble and I found it!
The EA50 has a reputation for having problems with aliasing and moiré. I have been shooting with it for two years and it has not been a problem. I have seen it a few times but not severely. Obviously I was not too concerned or I would not have purchased a second one. The new model of the EA50 is the EA50M. They are identical cameras with one exception. The new EA50M is said to have a new and improved sensor. I read that the new sensor is better in low light and is supposed to be video designed to reduce problems based on sensors from still cameras.
I have limited time right now, so to test the cameras I went into my studio. I picked out about 10 garments that could be problematic when recorded on video. I was literally trying to create aliasing and moiré. If it was going to happen this test should do it. I was also comparing three cameras under the controlled circumstances of my studio. I wanted to look for a match or mismatch, image quality etc. Please comment on these things too. The video is self explanatory. I am going to hold my thoughts at the moment but I would appreciate all of your comments. I am not going to keep this video active for very long. I don’t even want it on a public forum at all. I told you guys I would let you know what I found so I figure I owe it to my fellow DVI community members to give you a look at this. I am not pleased with what I found. I will be glad to answer questions.
I will provide a lot more information later; I’m in hurry right now.
Also, Michael and anyone else with an EA50M would you please look at the ID plate on the bottom of the camera and tell me what model it says it is? Mine says EA50U.
Quote from Sony web site on EA50M:
• “Its new Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor was designed for shooting Full HD video and 16.1 megapixel high-quality still photos without artifacts common to still camera sensors.”

Steve

Password: EA50M

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Steven thanks for the posting.

Quick question...
You mentioned that all cameras had the same settings and the EA50M and EA50H both had the same stock 18-200mm lenses mounted.

Was the sharpness set to be the same in both EA50 cameras?
I ask because the EA50M images looked much sharper than the EA50H images.

Also, the exposure looked very different between both EA50M and EA50H cameras on the coat shots, with the EA50H looking quite a bit darker in exposure.

Thanks again for taking the time to do some quick tests.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hi Michael,

I double checked the detail setting, it is the same. I did not go through every setting on every profile but I did on PP1. I think all factory settings are identical.

Here is my quick take. It is a different sensor, maybe sharper? I am not sure yet but maybe. I have a lot of Canon "L" glass. When I shoot with those I definitely get an increase in sharpness over Sony. I should, some of those lenses cost as much as a camera.

I think this is what we are seeing in the video. At F6.3 those images are a little under exposed. I did not add gain because I wanted a 0DB comparison. The increase in brightness on the EA50M image is the amount of improvement in the new sensor. It clearly gathered more light, set at the same aperture.

I am disappointed that the moire was not improved. In fact on that one shirt that blew up with rainbows it was worse on the M. That shirt is deceiving on tape. It has a texture of fine micro dots for lack of a better term. I think that is what did it. If it was regular cotton it would not have blown up.

You will love your new camera. There is a bunch of us here that help each other out. There are a few complaints about moire but not a single post where someone said it completely ruined a shot. It does concern me though. Especially because you can't see it in the viewfinder. I wish they would have fixed it.

Here is a link to an Alister Chapman article on aliasing and moire. He is highly respected. He is talking about 2K and 4K but he gives a good explanation of what happens on any sensor to cause it. This issue is not limited to the EA50 of course:

Aliasing and Moiré. What is it and what can be done about it? | XDCAM-USER.COM



Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

the problem that you reference is in the lens not the camera I read a review on that lens and that was one of the complaints most users found.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Steve thanks for the additional info.
From what you are reporting the EA50M seems to be quite a bit more sensitive than the older EA50H. As well as sharper, at least to me. If the new sensor is more sensitive and sharper then this might be why more movies showed up. It seems that Sony still decided to go with the mechanical shutter for photos, instead of optimizing it for video to reduce aliasing.

Are there any filters out there to cut down the moire being filmed. I saw one that goes on Canon sensors and seemed to work great.

If I did have any moire issues I could fix them in post in FCPX. But I always prefer to shoot clean and leave post for enhancing not correcting.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Aliasing takes place on the sensor. On high end cameras they put an optical low pass filter in front of the sensor to reduce it. I believe there are no traditional filters available for any camera to fix it.

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Randy,

The 18-105 G lens does not work on all Sony cameras. On the FS series cameras it has a pin cushion effect that is well known. The EA50 and other NEX cameras electronically fix the issue. Maybe thats what you are referring to?

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Actually Steve these guys seem to have a filter for just that purpose.
I emailed them today asking about the possibility of producing one for the Sony cameras such as the EA50.

Mosaic Engineering Home

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

That is awesome Michael. Maybe there is hope for this problem. Let us know what their reply is. I would encourage you to read Alister's article I posted above, it helped me understand it better.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Actually I did and it made perfect sense. I meant to post this before but forgot to.
Also I'm very familiar with Alister through Glidetrack and such. Of course I have followed some of his posts here over the years.

I have been a long time forum member but only recently migrated back into these forums.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

heres the review I saw its like a bending effect but I dont know if it happens on the EA-50 or not.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Be sure to ask them to look at my emails AGAIN where I gave them very precise dimensions of the sensor area. They were going to send me a few samples to play with, but never did. I guess they didn't see the demand..................

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Thanks for all the effort Steve!

So after basic testing would you say the sensor IS different or have they put the same ole sensor back in and just supplied the camera with a different lens?

It might be an idea to again use both cameras with the same lens and get a low light shot inside the house and get the lights low enough in auto so the camera is running at firstly 21db and then at 24db .... I know that on my cameras, 21db gives a clean noise free image but 24db is decidedly noisy regardless of the lens. If the M sensor is better it should instantly need a loss less gain in a given light situation compared to the original model and even if they are the same maybe the new sensor has a cleaner image at the same gain?

I too have very few issues with moire but I did have a wedding where the MC was wearing a checked shirt ( probably with squares on it around 1" or so) and I noticed that most items of clothing you selected had very fine patterns .... maybe find someone with very bold pinstripes or squares?? Sadly we have no control over what wedding guests wear so we have to accept an moire if it occurs. Gosh, I quite often see moire patterns on broadcast TV here (in a studio too!) with big expensive cameras so my attitude is if the national broadcasters don't worry why should I???

Chris

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hey Randy,

Yes, that is an issue I was aware of and have been very critical of this lens for that reason. It does work on the EA50 without that problem. That is why they bundled it together. If your an EA50 shooter and don't plan on getting a FS 100 or 700 you will be fine.

I have said in other threads I think it is ridiculous that Sony put their "G" badge on this lens. Sony says a "G" designation means "they stand shoulder to shoulder with the Zeiss series". Canon would never put a "L" designation on any lens that was not the best they can make.

Now, with that said, what do I think of it now that I have one? It is a big step up from the original kit lens. You give up 95MM but you get F4 all the way through. If you shoot in manual most of the time like I do a constant aperture is critical. As mentioned the old kit lens is only 3.5 at 18mm and ramps up very fast. The zoom on the new lens is fast and responds the way it should. The zoom and focus rings are usable, it is a servo lens so they are not good but much better than the other lens. The zoom ring works well enough to make quick compositional changes without the rocker. The build quality is obviously far better. I can honestly say it does not seem to be a kit lens. On the other hand I think Sony did themselves a disservice by placing it in their top category. But, that is probably why none of the Sony broadcast cameras I work with have a Sony lens on them. In that category it is always a Canon or Fujinon lens on them. I will take the new shorter lens over the old kit lens hands down. Even though I shoot most of the time with my Canon lenses I wont be selling any of them. They all have a place and time in my kit even though they are dreadfully slow.

Chris, I have not gotten around to low light testing yet. But I know my previous limit for a clean image was 18db. At 21db there is noise. At 24db it is very noisy and unusable unless you are forced to go there. If your clean at 21db something is wrong with my camera?

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Steve, other then the moire issue you noticed, did you see any noticeable improvements in lowlight performance, does it produce less noise and how about aliasing?

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hey Noa,

Have not tried low light yet. But interestingly enough I shot a bunch of roof tiles just like you did and neither camera failed so I did not put it in the video. I am trying to make them fail and so far all I have come up with is moire on one weird shirt. I shot a lot more fabrics than I put in the video too, they all looked good. It is new, I will ring it out, not enough time yet.

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Thanks Steve

No rush but I figured that IF the sensor is better it will show up in a low light situation. I find that 21db is very useable and both my cameras are locked to never go higher. I have honestly never pixel peeped the 21db footage as to my eye it looks pretty good but yes, 24db is very noisy ... Doing weddings we do have situations where no lights are allowed so low light shoots would easily make the camera go to 24db but I would rather have an image that's clean at 21db even if it's slightly under exposed.

I haven't seen any M models here as yet!! The EA-50H (that's what I have) are still current at $3750 not the much lower B&H prices.

Chris

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Chris I'm still waiting on my EA50M to be delivered (coming today) so I don;t know sensitivity of the new sensor yet.

But back on page 1 Steve answered my question about if the settings were identical on both cameras (mainly I was asking about if the detail settings were the same). But I also made an observation that all of the images from the EA50M were brighter than the EA50H. He said that the settings and lenses were the same on both cameras, but the new sensor was the difference, and it was definitely more sensitive.

So you would figure with this info that the new lens should function better in low light. And couple that with a constant 4.0 lens, then the overall image with a stock lens should be dramatic, compared to the EA50H's stock lens.

Now slap a 1.4 or 1.8 lens on that bad boy and it should do wonders in low light.
Personally I'm looking forward to this as I shoot a lot of low light weddings, and even though I use off camera lighting, I still find myself needing on camera lighting for that extra punch. If I can get away with no on camera fill light then I will be estatic.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Thank you very much for all your work so far.

After shooting with them, how comfortable do you feel using the M and U models for 2 camera shoots, regarding image matching without post work needed?

On a lot of shots I seem to see them matching up well besides the brightness difference and moire toward the end.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hey Guys,

I still have a lot of questions myself because I have been too busy to shoot with them much. I do think it is a"different sensor" and it is more sensitive. But for all I know that could be just a processor tweak. The factory defaults for the profile presets are the same on both cameras. In day light they seem to match, as soon as thing start getting dim they don't. But I am not sure about anything yet, too soon.

One thing I know for sure is that the viewfinder LCD IS WEIRD. I was right when I said it is not a what you see is what you get screen. And it always look different than the 50U. I am not sure I like it. During the day it looks saturated and ritch. When things get dark it looks darker that the image you shoot. I am not sure whats going on yet.

Michael, Chris is good in low light with his. I think he shoots weddings with no on camera light anymore. He will tell you about it.

I have some footage I have not looked at yet. I will soon. I am fighting with Adobe on a new editor. I shot some night time stuff in PS mode to get maximum data. It imports into Adobe Premier without audio. It is a known bug in Premier but the fix is different for different systems. Any suggestions? So far it is a PITA for me. Maybe I will just convert it to something else but for test footage I like to look at original files.

Steve

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Do you use Content Management Utility 2.1 Sony Creative Software - Content Management Utility or are you on a Mac.

I expect Catalyst Browse would also transfer files to the PC too. The just use files in Premiere.

Ron Evans

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

I tried Content Browser to import into PC. No audio from those or importing from Premiers content browser.

Content Browser and Content Management Utility both frustrate me. I never gave them the time to lean them because I don't like them. I only use them for long clips when I have to.

Content Browser currently wont see any files except the ones I imported through it? This is what I mean, I am inpatient. Why won't Sony's own browser see Sony files everything else sees? Stupid to me so I get mad and try something else.

Content Manager makes you register a folder you can never change again for all imports or something like that.

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

I don't use Content Browser because it will not join AVCHD files together like PMB, or Playmemories or Content Management Utility. I have always used Content Management Utility for transfers from my NX5U and NX30U with never a problem. I have also tried a few NEX-EA50 files with no problems. Yes there is a learning curve ( very shallow). Create and register a folder that you want files to be transferred to and then select that on the transfer window. I only use for transfer and once edited and backup delete anyway.

PlayMemories seems to transfer anything so you may want to try that. As with all the Sony stuff you may need to transfer from the camera USB the first time so that the camera is registered with the software as it will then change its settings to apply to the camera.

Ron Evans

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Thanks Ron, I will try CMU. I tried Content Browser first because it was the disk that came with the camera. Aren't they in the process of combining or eliminating all of these utility's so there will be only one?

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Content Browser was supposed to be that single product but I do not like it. This is the CMU ver 2.1 that I use and I think it was the last version anyway Sony Creative Software - Content Management Utility. I expect that Catalyst Browse Sony Creative Software - Catalyst Browse is now the choice !!! Or I expect Catalyst Prepare is the more Pro choice Catalyst Prepare: Overview. Catalyst Browse is free and does seem to work for all my camera files ( FDR-AX1, FDR-AX100, NX5U, NX30, CX700, XR500, AS30V etc )

Ron Evans

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Thanks for the info Ron. I downloaded Catalyst Prepare and liked it (trial version). It did not fix my problem though. The issue is in Premier. It is not that the audio does not play, there is no audio. The audio is there but does not show up at all, it makes the clips look as though they are video only. I am on a brand new editing rig, fast and clean. It is only doing it with clips I shot in PS mode. It is a known issue that jumps up with Premier, im in 5.5. Its to bad, I just looked at some night shots I would like to show you guys. They turned out better than I expected. But all of the shooting details is on the audio. I don't have time to trouble shoot right now.

Edit: I am exporting them in Catalyst right now to see if pushing them through another codec helps. So much for getting my taxes done. But hey, I have new stuff I am testing. That is important right? If I could only convince my CFO (my wife) of that!

Steve

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Does PP 5.5 manage 28Mbps AVCHD with LPCM audio ? That may be the problem. You will have to ask the CFO if she would let you upgrade the NLE !!!

Ron Evans

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Just to set records straight; the FS700 has been updated (firmware 2.10/3.10) to support the 18-105 f4 G lens and they now work great together even at high frame rates. I'm not sure if the raw/4K output is corrected though, think it's not.

FS100 users are out of luck though.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

Hi Ron

I downloaded Catalyst Browse a while back and am now updating to Version 1.21 .. However from what I see it still cannot join split files like the CMU does and export the files?? Am I doing something wrong or does one need to get Catalyst Prepare if you want an option that will import files from the card onto your computer??

Is the new Browse an import program now or do I still need to use CMU or pay for Prepare???

Chris

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

I've found that Iskysoft media converter:

iSkysoft iMedia Converter Deluxe Mac : Ultimate Multimedia Solution

It gives you the option to convert files as "merged" or as clips as the camera breaks them up into approximately 10 minute clips.

I like it as I have the ability to convert to any format for wholesale clients-good product, and it survived the update to yosemite operating system without being ripped off.

The content browser by sony is useless, and lacks functionality and simplicity that Iskysoft media converter offers.

You'll spend about $75 but it's well worth it.

Re: I'm going to compare EA50U and EA50M
 

I would still use the Content Management Utility. The Browser is not very good as in my tests will not see AVCHD 2.0 60P with LPCM from my NX30U let alone join the FAT 32 files together. Will work to join files from the NX5U though which are interlaced 60i at 24Mbps. I have not tried Catalyst Prepare. Playmemories will transfer them all including 4K from the AX1 and AX100. It is also free !! It will not do XAVC-L though from the X70 I tested which is the only real time I used the Catalyst Browse to transfer to the PC. Edius will play the X70 XAVC-L files just fine though.

Edit: I will try a few tests tomorrow with my CX700 which will also record 60P but with AC3 audio to see if there is a difference with Catalyst Browse. Don't hold out much hope though. Initially tests were on the NX5U files which it transferred and joined just fine.

Ron Evans