I haven't found this function. In STILL mode it can do Spot, Center, and Multi.

=============

It's now clear to me there are three different approaches to using VG10:

1) E-mount lens

2) A-mount lens

3) Full manual lens

The camera is simple, but once you introduce interchangeable lens things get complicated fast!

Steve, what type of auto focus functionality do you see in video mode?

Steve are you saying that you have aperture control with A-mounts on the NEX-VG10? You can dial in your desired F-stop?

Assuming you want a 180-degree shutter, then you are correct with 30p the shutter-speed should be 1/60th.

BUT, for those of us who have been shooting 30p since the JVC HD1/HD10 we know we'll see strobing when each frame is presented twice on a video monitor. To help cover-over the strobing, one adds a bit more motion blur -- hence 1/40th.

But you'll need an ND anyway as to get a shallow DOF you need an aperture of about f/4 on the bundled lens. So that's 5-stops of light reduction from f/22.

==========

Steve are you saying that you have aperture control with A-mounts on the NEX-VG10? You can dial in your desired F-stop? YES -- just use the VG10 dial. BUT, exposure will not change during shooting.

PS: 2 more of my babies: an H8 and an H16.

I am really confused. So you can change the aperture but the exposure doesn't change while shooting? Does that mean you dial in your desired aperture and then film? Thanks Steve

There are quite a few missing video camera features that are missing in the VG10 such as peaking, zebras, ND filters and XLR inputs. I hope Sony has a prosumer version coming soon that incorporates these features. That has been their trend in the past with video cameras; I hope it is this time as well.

Are there any comparison reviews out yet? vg10 vs comparable priced cameras ?

That's correct and that's what a filmmaker wants because you don't want exposure changing DURING a shot.

Basically, you set up each shot -- and then shoot.

I'd wait for people on these forums to actually get hands on any new camera and report back - the accuracy of so many "reviews" is highly suspect, and at least here you know who you're dealing with and who shoots a similar style to what you're doing...

Personally I want to own a VG10, but for the specific use I'm after, I'm more interested in the upcoming a55 DSLT, the a580 DSLR, or perhaps whatever "7" series Alpha body comes out if they de-cripple some of the features. For me the use as a video camera is secondary, for DoF shots, short "glamour" clips, and maybe as the ocaissional static wide shot cam. The VG10 is overkill for me, and I can buy two a55 kits for the same price.

Actually, that's not been their trend. They don't take a pure consumer camcorder and add PRO features.

When they make two versions they make a pro design and make a $2,500-$2,900 version by removing features and a $3,500-$3,900 version.

The VG10 is part of the NEX series. You should read the interviews with the NEX design team. Their goal is to create a new CONCEPT. Very much like the iPad. And, the so-called reviews of the VG10 show all the same concept -- and factual -- errors as the reviews of the iPad. The iPad is not a "computer." The VG10 is not a "camcorder."

Sony does not want the NEX series to be either an HDDSLR or a camcorder. Everyone should look more closely at the NEX-3 and NEX-5. In AUTO they are a consumer imaging device. In MANUAL they are a prosumer imaging device.

PS: I have reason to suspect a pro big chip camcorder is coming, but not a version of the VG10. Likely not even the same CMOS chip because it's not an EXMOR R. Look for it to be way more than $5K.

Thanks for the insight Steve. Hopefully the appeal and benefits of large sensor cameras will spark a wide range of new cameras over the next couple of years. We should see a range of interesting products appear on the market.

The VG10 offers a PROGRAMMED AUTO mode.

So what is the bias in PROGRAMMED AUTO mode? It limits shutter-speed to 1/125th.

Of course, this means aperture will be reduced. In bright light, the aperture goes from f/22+ (blinking) to f/16.

So Sony must assume that PROGRAMMED mode will be fine when you don't need a shallow DOF.

Questions:

1) How much ND is needed to get down to f/4 (WIDE) to get minimal DOF? 4 STOPS

2) How much strobing will occur at 1/125th verses 1/40th? The answer is how much blur is captured at each speed?

See these captures below. Clearly, there is a big difference.

Watching on a computer, the 1/125th didn't have TOO MUCH strobing, yet SOME strobing. Which is good for those who hate strobing and those who love strobing.

I quite agree with that prediction.
I would not be a bit surprised to see Sony offer a larger APS chip cam, interchangable lenses, adaptable to 35mm film lenses, with extensive pro features (something like the EX1) in the $6-$7K range. A camera like that would be a significant challenge to the Red in many segments of their market, as well as the entirety of the pro HDSLR shooters.
As to the VG10, I would anticipate the same sort of evolution that we have seen from the SR-12, thru XR-520, to the current CX-550. The camera remains at the consumer/prosumer level, and the size, price, shape, etc. change little, but the technology and functionality improve substantially with each new version.
The upgrade to an Exmor R chip would be a great example of this sort of incremental change for the VG10.
The product cycle has only been about one year between new releases in the SR-12 thru CX-550 example- could easily be similar for the VG10.
Personally, these notions make me hesitate to buy now. Since I don't actually "need" this camera for anything important at the moment, we'll see if I can actually control my impulsiveness for 12-14 months.
Probably not :(

low light
 

Steve, have you made any observations regarding the low-light performance? Can it rival the 7D?

Sony showed a 35mm "cinematic" camera at NAB, and then at IBC they showed a "filmlike" camera, which I think is the same camera (unless they have multiple large-chip cameras planned.) They say they will announce it formally early next year. No price yet, though I've heard people quote $6,000 and $20,000; making for a big range.


If the NEX-VG10 is popular, and/or the HDSLR's continue to be popular, I'm sure Sony will come back with something more "pro."

My personal suspicion is that Sony didn't so much "dumb-down" the NEX-VG10, as decide they wanted to get into the big sensor market as quickly as possible, and basically put the NEX hardware/software into a different form factor doing as few alterations to the software as they could get away with.

Michael I was at the release of the PMW-500 in NYC and the 35mm camera was discussed. The people from Sony said under $50K so I don't think it will be cheap. This is not targeted at HDSLR but more the Epic and Red One.

I also agree they will have a step up from the NEX-VG10 soon.

Tonight I ran some AF checks -- indoors with lots of light at 1/40th second shutter.

Here's the way the VG10 works. It has nine zones -- some set of which decide what the focus should be. (They are like face recognition functions but they work on anything with edges/contrast. They don't work on cat fur!) At times the green boxes show-up and you can see what the camera is using to focus.

Then camera then focuses. It is quite fast!

You can pan left or right and as long about a 1/3 of the screen continues to have the object, it will hold focus. So, you can easily setup a shot with up to 2/3 of the scene out of focus.

This ability to lock, can cause problems as the VG10 can refuse to focus on a new object especially at maximum tele. However, if you press the PHOTO button it forces a quick focus -- which may or may not look OK.

UPDATE: NO, the button will not work in MF. That's bad design by Sony!

In a typical filmmaking situation the AF will work fine. Focus THEN Shoot!

I haven't yet checked how well it locks on a moving objects, but from my experience I expect once the VG10 locks on a subject it will hold focus.

The other question is what happens when you pan from one subject to another. My experience with Sony's AF is as the first object moves out of the frame it holds the lock briefly as the little green boxes lock onto the next subject. So a quick pan works fine.

UPDATE: the VG10 IMHO would be a much better camcorder if it shipped with the Sony 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 lens. Unless you have a need for a greater than 100mm tele -- which I don't -- from what I can read the zoom is much less stiff and the weight is FAR less making the balance better.

You really don't need the 16mm/2.8 because the Sony 18-55mm is f3.5 which is only a stop slower. You could sell your bundled lens to a NEX owner.

The reviewer is correct, the human interface is poor -- as is the manual.

First, ALL the buttons are ALMOST flush with the case. You have little feel when you finger is on a button. (And, you have no idea WHICH button.) Each button should stick out a bit more. You or your assistant may need to look at the buttons until you learn to feel the tiny bumps.

Second, when you look directly at the buttons, you can't see the LCD which means you can't see the "soft-key"labels. For example, the MENU button is also the Back and Volume button.

The menu system itself is not organized.

How to Overcome:

Thankfully, you almost never need to use the actual menu system!!! At last you can make shooting changes without going down a menu rabbit hole.

To change a function, locate the button and press it. Now the dial becomes active and you do everything with it. Thankfully, you can feel the dial so now you can look at the LCD/VF to see the values change.

Sometimes, you make a choice by pressing the dial -- other times the dial remains LIVE, for example, to control the aperture while you shoot.

But, a LIVE shutter-dial is crazy! Tapping the dial should lock the speed.

1) Frankly, one solution is to use the PROGRAMMED AUTO which limits the speed between 1/30th and 1/125th. (It works as a shutter-priority mode.)

2) Alternately, use the MANUAL mode: set/lock the shutter-speed and then switch to aperture control with the dial.

Still, Sony should have caught this design error.

Now about the hot images. Yes, they are hot. But, in everything but MANUAL mode you can dial in a bias

WB has some really cool features! GAIN works fine.

I ran tests tonight. With a source I could switch ON/OFF it recorded peaks at up to -7dB -- which is good because it gives 6dB for really loud sounds. (I am assuming a limiter prevents clipping.)

A very soft background source was also playing with peaks at about -47dB.

Upon turning off the main source there was NO change in the level of the low source over time. (I was using USB earphones.)

I would conclude there is no AGC -- only a limiter.

However, Sony should have listed the Mic jack's sensitivity spec so one could match a mic to the VG10.

What about the HDMI out put, will it be good for capturing to a Nanoflash?

focus assist?
 

Does the VG10 have the focus magnification feature found on the NEX5? Using 3rd party lenses is easy on the NEX5 because you can hit the magnification button and manually focus. Is that available on the VG10?

(By the way, Sony announced that new firmware for the NEX5 would come out in October with some ability to control exposure in video mode.)

There are finally a few real users posting footage on Vimeo and YouTube from the VG10. Some of it looks nice and film-like and some of it looks like crappy cell phone footage. Don't know what to think.

No, there is no any focus assist on VG10, which leaves you HDMI external monitor for focusing as the only option for use with non e-mount lenses;
I'm still waiting for Nikon to NEX adapter to try it with the fast glass, but I already know how it's going to look, roughly the same as 7D, but no IS, which I need for my work;
i still like image from 7D better than VG10, 7D has better brain :) and way better control, but I still want to see how VG10 looks with the f1,4 glass on, before I make any decision;
I like ability to have in camera decent sound, free form LCD, well, almost free form, that piece doesn't go 180°, only 90°, so you can't face the lens and see what's in the frame, what else, no clip length limit - nice, but not very important to me, what's really nice is that I don't have to convert the footage, it goes straight to the Vegas timeline; AF is very nice to have, but not a must, IS I need - it is my C camera and it is hand held all the time, but the most important to me is a picture quality in the limited light environment and so far it is less than satisfying,
overall I can't get rid of the impression that VG10 was designed and released with the only purpose - to say: 'look, we’re the first ones'

Some users know what they are doing, and some don't? :)

Let's think about this. HD monitoring only arrived in the last decades. So, how did filmmakers focus?

When the lens was a zoom, they zoomed in fully and focused and zoomed back to frame. No focus assist needed!

With a prime lens, you opened the aperture as far as practical to minimize DOF and then focused looking at the image. Then reset aperture.

Focus Assist was needed when LCD/VF had such low res that one couldn't focus. With a 1 megapixels that issue isn't present with the VG10.

Postings on what must/can or must not/cannot be done need to wait until folks actually own a VG10 and use it. So far almost every comment made by those who had only a few minutes of hands-on have been wrong -- or made by those with only video experience.

Well, according to the specs, the lcd on the NEX5 and the VG10 are comparable.... and there's no way to get accurate focus with a Summicron on my NEX 5 without the magnification turned on.

it's hard for me to believe they left the magnification off when the cameras are so similar, and when the VG10 is designed to shoot stills as well as video.

That's fine with dedicated video zooms that have constant focus throughout the zoom range, but the majority of stills zooms are varifocals and the focus is not constant through the zoom range. It make the lens simpler and with less glass produces a better image. For still photography focus variations are not an issue as you would normally zoom to frame, focus, then shoot. With video and movies came the desire to zoom during the shot and a different design of lens. So beware that you may run in to issues using the zoom to focus with lenses designed for still photography.

In AF mode, the PHOTO button forces an AF. in MF mode, the button does nothing!

I hate the "firmware" hope, but it is bizarre this button doesn't force a magnification when in Video mode. It is needed when prime lenses are attached via the adaptor.

On the other hand, I've had no problem because I use the VF and dial the aperture open as far as practical. This is no different than I've done with primes on film cameras and has always worked.

By the way, magnification pulls (about) every 8th pixel from the CMOS chip. Then it interpolates the missing 7 pixels. This does add 2X more information to what you see on the LCD so it does help.

Good warning since it's not clear how the E-mount zoom lens were designed. Sony does have a warning "Zoom before focus." Of course, that can apply to either design.

I'll have to test to see if focus is held upon zooming back -- and then in.

Thank you!

Looks like Sony deigned its "video" zooms as varifocals. Focus is not held as one zooms back. Thus, the note in the manual is correct, you must zoom and then focus.

That's the bad news. The good news is:

The 18-55mm zoom is far better for the camcorder!

Not only is it a fraction of the weight of the big zoom, it makes the camera far more balanced. Now it FEELS right!

The zoom is much less stiff -- it only has to pop-out an inch not 5-inches! And focus control is very smooth. Lastly, the zoom scale is marked on the lens.

It's too bad, but with that little piece of news, Sony has talked me out of buying this camera. That's the straw that broke the camera's back (pun intended). I am an event shooter (primarily weddings). There are just too many missing features in the VG10 that are needed for event and ENG shooters. As I said earlier in this thread, you can't yell "cut" at a wedding so you can fiddle with your camera's settings. Since there is no peaking, this little varizoom 'feature' means that the only remaining way to get sharp focus (zoom all the way in, focus and then pull back out) is also not possible. IMHO even though Sony changed its shape, this isn't a video camera, at least for event and ENG shooters.

varifocus...
 

Steve., are you saying in effect that the only way to guarantee sharp focus is with a close-up shot? On medium and long shots you've pretty much got to guess, or hope that the wider -angle shots will bring more into focus anyways?

I thought it was obvious the VG10 is an inexpensive tool for shooting video that has a low frame-rate with the option of minimum DOF. And, with very high-quality results.

For filmmaking, each shot will be planned, set-up, rehearsed, and shot multiple times. The Full Manual mode is designed to be used with a lightmeter. (And yes, one can use a lightmeter at a wedding or an event. Think "Woodstock.")

So, that doesn't mean docs, events, weddings, and news can't be shot with the VG10. And, that's because your statement "As I said earlier in this thread, you can't yell "cut" at a wedding so you can fiddle with your camera's settings" is false.

Focusing using the VF is hardly "fiddling" since anyone who has shot film has focussed without peaking or magnification. In fact, since primes -- not zooms -- have been used for filmmaking for a 100 years, the zoom-in-zoom-out trick obviously is not necessary for focussing.

If photographers needed these things, how did film get shot during WW2, etc. How was news shot? My first Bolex had a range-finder that one used to measure the distance of the subject. Then one dialed in the distance on the lens. :)

The VG10 is not a "camcorder," it is a motion picture camera that records digitally. It is designed for filmmakers or those who want an inexpensive way to learn the art of filmmaking.

PS: Its not really an HDDSLR either, because they tend to not have separate buttons for each manual function.

Since I automatically used the VF, I've never had any problem focusing. You can SEE when the image is focus. You move the focus ring from unfocussed to focus to unfocus and back to focus. Just like how I've always focussed cameras. There's nothing new or different here.

The VF inherently displays a BIGGER (to your eye) image than does the LCD which you view from a foot+ away. Unless one buys a VF for the NEX-5 you don't get one -- so you have no choice but Magnify.

PS: you are right, wide is inherently likely to be in focus, which is why colored FA is so annoying. The entire image becomes colored. So, I'm not saying Sony shouldn't have offered the function. :(

Steve
I'm perplexed by your report that the camera does not hold focus throughout the zoom range.
Here is a quote from the VG 10 Handbook:
"Tip on focusing:
Focus on the subject with the telephoto side of zoom first, and then move the zoom toward
the wide side."
Is Sony just giving bad advice here??

No I'm perplexed!

I assumed the lens should work as you describe. It has been raining so I've been testing indoors. When I zoomed in and focused and zoomed out -- because I went wide everything looked in focus, so I zoomed in a bit to another object and it wasn't in focus.

So maybe the lens can handle a zoom back -- as described -- but not handle a zoom IN after the zoom OUT.

More testing is in order. Thank you!

I've also been trying the AF and it is REALLY SMART!

If you press the FORCE FOCUS button while in AF mode just before starting a shot, your focus is locked on your subject even as it moves around.

PS: I used AF on the V1 and it was great, although I'm well aware that AF is a taboo option to many!

This is definitely true, but I must confess: I shoot a lot of run n' gun and I actually do use autofocus a lot on the EX and the CX550. The auto features are pretty smart, and I've sort of learned the situations in which they can't be trusted. For that, it is so quick to pull the EX lens to MF and tweak it, and the CX has on-screen "touch focus" which is magic. I'm not proud.
Sony definitely has good "smart auto" stuff- great to hear that they're using it in the VG10.
BTW, I was going to resist and wait for the VG11, then I noticed that the Sony site had the VG10 in stock again...
I was powerless.
It took, like, 12 sec to drink the KoolAid. It should arrive Monday.
P.S.
I'm always concerned about low light perfomance in these smaller cams- here's a terrific candlelit short, shot with the VG. The images look fantastic. Sound track is good too- very creepy :)

Once lenses were designed (inner-focus) to make AF faster and more accurate -- the direct connection to the focus elements was eliminated thus almost forcing AF to be the only way one can focus. Thankfully, DSP can now read the chip -- divide the pixels into zones -- and the compute the contrast in each.

Then using some process I don't understand, zones with the highest contrast, become the zones used for focus control. Now as I read the description, the motor in the lens makes minor steps. If contrast increases, then focus is getting sharper. If contrast gets lower, the stepping is reversed. (We can't see these steps.)

Now, in a way I don't understand, the zones track a portion of the image. Since they track the object, they follow its movement. As they track, they keep maximize contrast.

When an object moves off the frame, the focus is NOT changed for a period of time. If in this period, another object is "captured" then focus is smoothly changed to the new object.

This "locking" occurs even if someone walks in front of the camera or the camera pans from one subject to another. With a quick pan, the camera will not try to focus on the background -- and the more shallow the DOF, the less likely the camera will even try to focus on the background (or a person walking close to the camera.

When you press the FORCE FOCUS button, the stepping motor runs through its entire range to find the best focus.

As you say, there are times this can't work. My black cat in a CU simply has no contrast to measure. :)

UPDATE: Sony is correct. If you manually focus on a distant object, you can indeed zoom back and closer objects and they will be in focus.

You can zoom back to the distant object and it remains in focus.

But, if you zoom into the closer object -- focus will be lost.

This means you can zoom into a subject -- guitar strings for example so it is large and easier to focus on -- and then zoom back to frame -- the player.

You can then start to shoot and know you can safely zoom back into the strings.

Thank you Robert!

PS: AF offers you the option of zooming freely.

Moire badly at 50 seconds, just like the Canon.

I just want to be sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that if I focus on an object while the lens is zoomed OUT, and then zoom IN, the object remains in focus. BUT if I zoom IN and focus, and then zoom out, it will be out of focus?



I think most auto-focus systems that don't use an active system (i.e. bounce some sort of radio/light beam off the object) search for maximum contrast in a scene to determine when it is "in focus." Even face recognition systems I think first find the face, then try to get maximum contrast in the region that is designated the "face"

HowStuffWorks "How Autofocus Cameras Work"