In my mind most of the film look comes from the techniques used to mask the slow frame rate. Shallow depth of field so that the background is out of focus and the judder in the background is thus minimized by out of focus motion blur. Letting the action take place in front of the camera rather than camera moves like panning. Tracking shots rather than panning with shallow depth of field. Choosing contrast and saturation to emphasis the subject . Use slow motion effects( shoot at really high frame rates) when the action really is too fast for 24P. etc etc All of these techniques can be used with higher frame rates.

The slower frame rate of film was economics driven. Minimize the cost of distributing to all those theatres.

60i was economics driven too. Minimize the bandwidth required to transmit a usable video image. And just like film/projectors combination, 60i was designed as a system of cameras and CRT displays. Flat panel displays were not part of the system hence the issue of scaling and deinterlacing that causes so much problem. From the display point of view they refresh at 60Hz or more so a 60p video signal would be the most compatible. I am looking forward to that day!!!

Ron Evans

That's what find amazing about the 24p video folks. They completely fail to understand that filmmakers make every effort to MINIMIZE the nasty side effects --foreground and background strobing from low temporal resolution -- that comes from the ECONOMICS of the cost of film.

No one wanted 24fps. It was the most economic way of getting sound on film. It was never an esthetic choice. It had nothing to do with "suspension of belief" for narrative film.

In fact, compared to the original 15fps to 18fps -- 24fps was a step toward higher quality because it offered greater temporal resolution.

There is no reason to believe had film been cheaper, that 30fps or even higher wouldn't have been used.

Now it has become a fetish. (Google the word.)

The fetish is so strong that even when people learn that what they SEE with 24fps on video is actually not 24fps but 2-3 pulldown -- they then insist they like 2-3 pulldown. This despite the fact that those who actually shoot film want monitors that show film without 2:3 judder.

Obviously, the fetishists are no longer SEEing anything. They are BELIEVING. They are past evidence. They are have a faith. A faith not in aactual LOOK, but in a number. Might as well be avoiding 666.

Moreover, like all faith, the key is to admit no new information. No doubt. No option to actually LOOK at 30fps at see IF it looks better. No option to actually LOOK at 30fps and compare it to projected film.

Faith cannot get updated by new technology. Things can NOT be better. Things must remain the same.

We've seen this reaction before. When sound was added to film. Folks were convinced that subtitles created a story in the mind (like books) and were people to hear actors speaking it would destroy the imaginative power of film. (I imagine film itself was feared for the same reason by writers.) And, printing a Bible was claimed to destroy religion because it bypassed priests.

So the question is do folks want the look of projected film or do they want a camera specification?

PS 1: one of the primary reasons why filmmakers want a shallow DOF (VG10) is because it reduces background strobing from low temporal resolution!

PS 2: The point of a slow shutter-speed (VG10) is to help cover the strobing from low temporal resolution.

> Obviously, the fetishists are no longer SEEing anything. They are BELIEVING. They are past evidence.

With this statement, this thread has officially jumped the shark. Google it.

Not much changing in this argument since last year when I asked:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/film-loo...s-way-out.html

Steve Mullen

Excellent myth-busting posts. And long overdue.

The tiresome drone of 24p fetishists is very boring, and often delusional IMO. Like the emperor's new clothes you have to be a believer to see it.

But is there anything there? I'm not convinced. Of course i may be wrong.

Has anything new about the vg10 came out lately?

Hey, I have been using 30p for a while now and I really like the look. If I am getting this right the VG10 is shooting 30p within a 60i stream. How well do you think it will cut with a Sony V1 with a nano flash?

Steve Mullen,
Thank you for your excellent posts. This 24p fetish can be really irritating. I can take this new VG10, 60i or 30P and all, and turn it into a money-making tool for my business. I can also go out and shoot my own personal film projects with it. It's ability to give me a narrow depth of field and to use a large array of lenses gives me a new option in my productions. I already have 24P in my present camera. I'll trade that for better DoF control any day.

I compare this fetish to other interests in my life - motorcycles and rifles. There are some bikers who only ride Harleys. To them, all other makes suck. Never mind their bikes are 1940s - 50s tech. Never mind modern sportbikes can run rings around them, and beat them in every single performance category. They simply refuse to look at any other bike if it doesn't say "Harley" on it. And on their clothes. And boots., And bandannas, etc... It's that same close-minded attitude that irks me about 24P fanboys, and I even ride a Harley! (One of many bikes I've owned.) I'm not saying you shouldn't own a Harley if you like them, just don't bad-mouth all other bikes because they're not.

it also goes to those who are enamored to "black rifles," aka AR-15s. If you don't have the latest and greatest AR-15 ( M4gery) clone, with all the latest scopes, tactical lights, etc. you're not "with it." Never mind if the rifle has inherent weaknesses that more modern rifles have addressed. I've owned one before, found it was too much trouble to upkeep, and moved on to other rifles.

I have no personal investment in Sony. I don't own stock, etc. But I hate to see this product being unfairly criticised because it doesn't conform to some 24P fanboys' idea of video nirvana.
Let's try the cameras out before we make any judgements. Have an open mind. And never forget, content is king; always has been, always will be. If your film sucks, 24P won't save it.

The way you devotees of 60i and 30p can defeat the evils of 24p is show your amazing work to the industry, and press it to adopt these better frame rates. While you may be absolutely right about its value, wringing of hand and talk is cheap.

The concern raised by some that this camera should have 24p, is a valid concern, given an emphasis on that frame rate by many if power in segments of the industry. What if you show up at a job and the client says, "Of course, you will be shooting in 24p, right ?" So having it available is a valid concern. I have it available on my Canon 5d, and my Canon T2i, and I am happy it is there. On the T2i I also have 60p, and I am happy it is there too !

Point is with this camera, Sony continues to leave it off of its low end cameras, while Canon has included it. So I will opt for a camera that does have it available.

I've found it interesting how passionate folks are about what they do and how diverse our members' styles are.

There are those of us (myself included) who think this camera won't be suitable for what we do because it doesn't have a true 60i. From the other side, there are folks who think it won't be suitable because it won't give them 24p. There are those of us on the 60i side who could care less about 24p and vice versa , and there are folks on either side who feel that their views reflect the only proper way to do things. Some think it's low light performance won't be good enough. Others think it will be fine for what they do as long as they can find suitable lenses. Some of us will be pleased to have changeable lenses while others of us feel extra lenses will get in the way of what we do. Some enjoy the the prospect of learning new techniques with a different kind of camera while others (with sizable investments in other cameras) are disappointed that it will not integrate well (or not well enough) with our existing equipment investments.

The VG10 gets hit from several sides at once. Mostly for not being designed to be all things for all videographers.

Can that really be done? I think not. It seems to me instead that this camera might be finding a new niche and will develop its own following, some of whom will be equally as passionate and we find ourselves reading a whole new array of posts where folks exasperatedly accuse each other of being fanboys or fetishists of weird, antique or niche technologies.

I agree wholeheartedly with the part of Glen's comment: "Let's try the cameras out before we make any judgments."

I think that comment also answers Ron Little's question for now.

Personally, I prefer 24p (even with 3:2 pulldown) - if it's shot well. If you pan quickly or slowly, it works fine. If you pan at a medium speed, the strobing can be obnoxious.

Why do I like it? The judder makes things look more dreamlike. Smooth out the motion, and it can look more real. Personally, I prefer the dream feel to the reality feel for films. So, for me, 24p is preferred.

Regarding the "fan boy" talk, I don't think it's helpful. The 24p crowd could turn it around and call 24p doubters "haters" or "60/30p fanboys." That just divides us. We should leave cheap polarization for cable news.

The reality is that any camera that doesn't offer 24p, 25p and 30p (if not 60i and 60p) will lose some market share. Even if one delivers finished media at 30p, they might want to undercrank to 24p to speed up a fight scene. The feature doesn't harm anyone, nor does it add hard costs (as we saw with the Canon 5D2 firmware that added 24, 25, and 29.97 fps.)

All shooters should be requesting all the standard framerates - if not additional framerates for over and under cranking too.

I think that's a terrific idea- but I'm afraid Sony is not going to give it to us for $2,000 :(

Well, hopefully this camera will have a frame rate upgrade. If it's just a software change, it should be possible - right?
But let's remember, it is marketed as a consumer camera. I don't expect much from a $2,000 camera. If it shoots good video, I'd say it's an incredible bargain.

I was just on a music video shoot yesterday using a 7D. Since I am new to DSLRs, it was quite the learning experience. And yes, the director wanted it shot in 24P. But the shoot only reinforced my desire for a large sensor, interchangeable lens VIDEO CAMERA. Given the choice, I'd much rather use a dedicated video camera platform than a DSLR. Will the VG10 fulfill that role? We'll find out in September.

By the way, the director is a friend of mine, and he's aware of the VG10. If we shot with the VG10, he would have been satisfied with 60i. Or 30P, or whatever it really is.

Jon I accept that it depends on the subject matter. A story/film can include all the artistic input desired by the director. The audience will be the judge. All of my projects are theatre with my aim to produce a finished product as if the viewer was sat in the audience. Not a film of the story unfolding on stage but a record of the stage production. Maximum depth of field and smoothest motion, as alive as possible. Same is true for my family video. I want to be there in the memory.

I support people who want 24p because they want it. For all the reasons stated before, 24p on a TV is not acceptable to me. The problem for me is that even the slightest movement has the cadence applied to it and destroys the dream like effect that the projected image would have. I just don't watch because more and more productions are poorly shot. Beautifully clean images with bad camera work and editing. They look worse than my projected 18fps Super8 film of almost 50years ago.

One needs to use a compatible chain of technologies. For video in NTSC that needs to be a multiple of 30 for PAL 25 and then none of these cadence issue will arise.(There will still be the scaling issues !!!) IF one then needs an oddball cadence for artistic effect then let the NLE do that. That is the nature of video.

Ron Evans

I do agree that it SHOULD have 24p. We know it can be done -- look at Pana and Canon. And, Pana makes "pro" cameras and so has a valid marketing reason to NOT include it. Yet they do.

As a reviewer I've had many many meetings with Sony execs. Some people remember I made a way too big a stink at a Sony press conference about the lack of 24p and the horrible CineFrame "feature." It was this that I think led Sony to loan me a V1 prototype.

I also don't know why Pana consumer camcorders shoot 24p but not 30p -- yet shoot 25p.

Or, why cameras don't shoot 25p AND 30p. Or, why 25p/30p are not recorded natively.

After years of fighting -- I'm convince that every company finds a way to cripple everything -- just a bit.

So not only do I think Sony should have included 24p -- I think they REALLY REALLY should have included Cine gamma and Black Stretch/Compress.

I see no valid reason why someone who wants 24p should not get it. It is 2010! Offering 1080p24 costs nothing. I can even give a really valid reason for shooting 24p -- you can convert to 60i and to 25p(50i) and go to film. And, 24p goes to BD.

My pushing against the 24p fans is only to get them to really think about the ABSOLUTE NEED to shoot 24p verses 30p for a "near" film look -- especially when the film look involves so much more than frame-rate.

I don't really care about 24P, but I'll join in the chorus that says it makes sense to include the feature... it's firmware most likely, not hardware, so why not, if only for the marketing advantage?

Trying to find an apt car analogy... it'd be like saying not everybody wants or uses the passenger side mirror... so lets just leave it off entirely...

I just realized something. I have become a Canon fanboy..... .something I had not expected, when I started with Sony consumer cams, then my VX2000 and then went to the FX1. FIrst Canon was the HV20 with 24fps capability, and now the 5 D and T2i.

Back to this camera, the other necessity in my mind is that the interchangeable lens capability easily extend to the good glass all of us have floating around in our bags-- again something that is easily doable with the Canon DSLRs, but that appears won't be so easy or clean with this camera. I can slap on my old Nikon and Pentax lenses with great easy on my Canon DSLRs, and hope Sony's cameras will have that potential as they gear up in the interchangeable lens arena.

Let's all keep in mind that the VG10 is a consumer camcorder with MSRP of $2,000. I've come to notice that whenever Sony offers 24P on a camcorder, it's usually on a Pro or Prosumer camcorder with a price of $3,000 or above. It might be that a possible future Pro version of the VG10 might have 24P. The $2,000 priced FX7 doesn't offer 24P while it's pro version, the V1, priced over $3,000 does offer 24P.

Precisely the game!!
I'm certain that Sony segments the camera features across a spectrum of prices strictly as marketing strategy rather than technology limits.
Consider their vast video camera offerings- from $200- $200,000. That's a lot of balls to keep in the air.

For some perspective, the Canon T2i/550D is a consumer still camera with an MSRP of $799 and it shoots 24, 25, and 29.97p.

Similarly, the Pana HMC40 is sub-$2000 and shoots 24P, 29.97P and 60P (plus interlaced, of course, but let's not go there).

Well, to be fair, the VG10 comes with an $800 lens, about the same price of the T2i body. I'm assuming the Sony lens is a very good one.
I've looked at T2i sample clips on Vimeo and YouTube and, when done properly, the videos are very impressive. So, regarding the VG10s or the Canon DSLRs, which has a more NLE- friendly codec? If I shot video with either and brought it to a post production house, which would be easier for the editor to work with?

The HMC40 has 1/4" CMOS chips? No thanks, no matter what the frame rate. Isn't that the whole idea behind the VG10 - to have a camcorder with a very large imager?

There are already lots of E-Mount lens adapters on ebay. The back focus distance on the E Mount is so short you can use Leica M-mount lenses - something you can't do with a Canon dlsr.

That makes this camera interesting. As long as a lens has a manual aperture ring, you should be able to use it.

True, but irrelevant. The question wasn't about lenses lenses but about whether it's reasonable to expect 24p even at the low-end. Besides, the VG10 without the lens is still about 50% more expensive than the T2i, and still no 24p.

Again, chip size is irrelevant to the discussion. (If you don't like quarter-inch sensors, then you won't like Panasonic's $21K AG-3DA1 3-D camera -- "1/4.1-inch" sensors.) What's being discussed is whether 24p should be expected in a low-end camera.

No, I understood the relevance. I may have worded my response poorly. Just trying to keep the costs in perspective. The VG10 doesn't have 24P, we got that. Who knows why it doesn't? I'm sure there are other Sony cams near the 2 grand price range that do shoot in various progressive rates, which makes it all the more perplexing.

The VG10 does have a flip-out monitor, a tiltable viewfinder, something I like in video cameras. It has a good audio system built it. I believe the AVCHD format is a robust one. It doesn't have 24P, but it does have some other nice video camera features the DSLRs lack.

I believe chip size is relevant to the discussion. I didn't bring a 1/4" chip camera in for comparison, someone else did. I know they were referring to 24P, but how many other large sensor, interchangeable lens, dedicated VIDEO CAMERAS are out there for this price? That was the point - there are none. 24P or not, right now it has no equal.
I've shot with 1/4" CMOS cams. I prefer not to. I know the Panny 3D model has them, I saw it at NAB. Interesting, that at their display, they didn't emphasize the sensor package. I had to ask several demo people before I got an answer.
I'll admit, I'm far more interested in a camera's sensor size than I am in its frame rates. If 24P is a game-changer, then this is not the camera for you. But hey, maybe there will be a software fix to that.

Edit - Sensor size takes on a whole new meaning with 3D cameras. Shallow depth of field doesn't seem to be as relevant when you can make objects appear closer or further away with 3D cameras. And you can adjust the distance perspective, it's really weird. I tried it at the Panny display, it's not easy to do at all. The low light performance will still suffer with smaller chips, though.

Including the VG10, right now there are none. Sure, the VG10 will be the first large-sensor, interchangeable-lens, prosumer video camera released, but it certainly won't be the last. And if Canon -- who's gotten a lot of press with films and TV shows being shot with its HD-vDSLRs -- releases an otherwise comparable (and comparably priced) APS-C video camera with 24p, which will be a better deal?

Well, since the Canon you described is vaporware, there's no telling which would be better. The Canon could have a worse codec, or bad moire', who knows? Actually, we don't even know if the VG10 will live up to its own billing. Time will tell. But it would be nice to have more camera choices.

I think the closest we can come right now to the VG10 is the Panny AF-100, and we know even less about that camera. It should have 24P and XLR inputs, which is great. It will probably cost about 3 times as much, too. And will it come with a lens? Will it be worth 3, maybe 4 times the cost of the Sony? I guess it depends on the user's preferences and needs.

Actually, the Canon I described is not even vaporware. Canon has made no announcements at all regarding an APS-C video camera.

Although I have been flamed for my opinion on this matter, I personally don't think it is, given that it's a larger-sensor version of the HMC150 with a $2,800 premium. Although the the HMC150 doesn't have HD-SDI, it has a more complex (and probably more expensive) image block and comes with a lens. And while the AF100 was previously tentatively priced at "around $6,000," according to this informal report from the Panasonic When It Counts Road Show, the price of the AF100 was given as "under 10K" (it's unclear whether this price includes a lens, although none of Panasonic's current 4/3 options is worth the $4K difference).

Thanks for the info, Lawrence.

The AF-100 - "under $10,000??" Ugh. Just ugh. The VG10 and DSLRs are looking a lot better.

I think that the VG10 is a probe by Sony: they've tossed it out into the pond to see who will bite and what they'll say. It is modestly featured but priced to be tempting to anyone who is interested in getting their feet wet with APS chip video.
If it goes well, I can imagine down the road a 4 lb. cam with a single APS chip, an expanded selection of E lenses, and the feature set of the EX1 in the $4-$6K price range.

HANDS ON: Alister Chapman
 

I don't mean to plegarize but I copied and pasted this from here: XDCAM-USER.com Sony NEX-VG10 APS-C Camcorder Launched, available September.
and a couple really short clips from the nex-vg10 here: http://www.xdcam-user.com/wp-content.../nex-clips.zip

"HANDS ON: I managed to get a brief play with one today. First off it’s very small and light, but with the supplied lens makes it quite front heavy. The LCD is clear and easy to see, however I did find focusing tricky with the LCD but I did not have time to see if there was any kind of focus assist system or peaking control. With the supplied lens you turn the forward ring to zoom and rear ring to focus. It was quite stiff turning the zoom ring and very difficult to do in shot zooms as you tend to twist the whole camera as you rotate the zoom ring. As well as the focus ring on the lens there is a dial behind the LCD screen that controls many functions including menu navigation, but this is also marked as a focus control. It was very strange holding a camcorder but not having any kind of zoom control. The menu system is quite logically laid out and easy to find your way around. I did shoot some clips with it and could see no signs of any aliasing which is very promising indeed. As expected it had pleasing shallow DoF but the low light performance was disappointing as it didn’t seem to perform as well as I had hoped. In some respects this may be an advantage as it helps get a shallow DoF. It also has to be remembered that the stock lens is only f3.5 compared to the f1.9 of a EX camcorder, so overall low light performance may not be as bad as it appeared. The pictures look very promising, it’s not a particularly expensive camcorder and for video, ergonomically it’s much better than a DSLR. I’m sure this will be popular with those that are seeking the filmic look.

Nice review. I like the lack of aliasing - very positive. i guess if my video camera lens could only open to 3.5f, the image would appear dark. But I don't know how DSLR lenses translate to video lenses.

The DOF tricks look great, but hard to tell re the overall image quality- I'm not sure if it's any better than we are used to from the little CX550.
Low light shots look O.K., but not great- blacks look pretty clean even with high gain, but I'm thinking that to get really best quality low light shots will require a much faster lens than the f 3.5.
Hopefully we will soon see more footage and some detailed hands on reviews.

Here's another footage link:
YouTube - ‪Sony NEX-VG10‬‎
This is interesting to me as it is an example of how the cam renders fast motion (big birds flying around).
I had some concern re the 30p in 60i format, but the shots look quite smooth.

I was kind of hoping that Sony would beat the moire and aliasing issues that the big sensor cameras seem to have, but at :35 in this film (city roof tops) it look like it is there.

Good eye, Chris! I can really see it on the 2nd, tighter rooftop shot.
Do you think it could be a web encoding issue rather than the camera?
I always feel a little uncertain when I spot something on web footage.
However, my CX550 keeps looking better and better.
Do I really need another camera...

That roof top moire does not look like an encoding issue to me. Some of the straight line aliasing may be.

Audio controls?
 

It doesn't look like the Sony NEX-VG10 will have any audio recording level controls? Can someone confirm or deny this?

It looks like there is volume control on the headphone levels but not on recording levels? Can this be possible?

Oh, man, I was getting excited by this camera when I saw what Leica lenses look like on the NEX5 on Flickr... Hard earned money | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Red tile rooftops sure seem to bring out the worst in these hybrid sensor cameras... I noticed it too, along with some RS skew in fast panning, but I can edit out fast pans... the moire and aliasing present a more problematic issue, as they always have in DSLR footage I've seen. When they are good, they are very good, but when they are "bad"... they not so great.

I've got no doubts whatsoever that I'll eventually add "something" with shallow DoF, either along the lines of the VG10, or more likely one of the new Alpha series cameras with video... but it will be for specific shots, and unfortuantely won't be a "replacement" for a regular video camera (I'm with Robert, my CX550V's are looking better and better, with a couple CX500V's for multiangle, since they use the same sensor block and menus).

I see the VG10 as a "hybrid" more oriented towards the "video" side of the equation both in ergonomics and features (and it looks sexyier than a DSLR!), but for some people (myself in this camp), a camera skewed towards the "still" side with video capability might make the better choice...

FWIW, after playing with the DSC-TX1 and DSC-TX7, for "casual" shooting of both stills and video, you learn to work within the compromises of the design and just enjoy the relatively impressive results...

Chuck -
The NEX5 seems like a pretty sweet little still camera from what I've seen, those shots definitely "pop", and the interchangeable lens possibilities with the "E" mount are what will rocket this product line to the top of the sales charts, IMO.

Heck I will be keeping an eye out for the "I bought this camera and it's too complicated for me" resales of VG10's... what it does offer is interesting enough (and did I mention it's "sexy" compared to an old DSLR?) to make me want one!

Everything I have read confirms that there is no audio level recording control on the VG 10.
The other issue that is a potential deal killer for me is that with the lens adaptor and A series lenses you can operate only in manual focus (acceptable), BUT there is no way to adjust the f stop- manual or otherwise- you can shoot video only with the lens wide open (not so acceptable).
The more I learn about the VG10, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I might best wait for this Sony APS line to mature a little more before jumping in.
I look at the phenomonal product improvement from the Sony SR12, to the XR 520, to the current CX550 and can't help but think a similar evolution will occur with the VG10 line if it really takes off.
It does look absolutely sexy- on that basis alone, I'm sure they'll sell like hotcakes :)