True performance of VX2100? at DVinfo.net

Azril Aziz · December 18th, 2003, 10:26 AM

I'm just starting out a small video business & Just bought a vx2100 pal yesterday,(an upgrade from a 2 yrs old sony 1 chipper TRV 17) .
What do suprise me is when in auto mode i can say the vx2100 picture is not really much different from my 1 chipper, I played it direct to my tv & compared it..its not just me..my mom & wife also thinks the same. I can say the vx2100 is maybe only 10% better than my 1 chipper. I've tried the manual settings but cold not really get it right.

So for the price i paid (4x than my 1 chipper) of coz i would expect the vx will perform much2 better than my 1 chipper. or am i just expecting too much? do u use the custom preset setting & what value do u change

So for VX2k/2100/pd150 expert out there, could some of u give me some tips to make the camera better. Maybe i can try same setting of yours.

btw i use a cheap kenko uv filter for the vx? will the cheap uv filter affect the vx performance?

Thanks..

Matt Stahley · December 18th, 2003, 11:17 AM

Personally I dont use the custom presets on my VX2k. I will make any adjustments in post. But as far as the footage from my 2k compared to my one chip PC-110. In very good light outside its a very close match but the richness and color etc. of the 2k blows the 110 away IMO . A good test is to take both cams out in low light and compare then you will see where the 2100 pays off. Also learn to use the manual focus and exposure settings.Once you get into the cam you will ask yourself why you didnt buy one sooner!

Boyd Ostroff · December 18th, 2003, 01:50 PM

Also, when you say you played it on your TV... what kind of TV? What kind of connection? Did you use s-video? That can also make a big difference. Matt is right, you need to learn to use the manual controls and it really isn't so hard. Hint: start by understanding the zebra patterns - do a search of the forums here.

Now I can't imagine why one wouldn't use the custom presets personally, but I suppose we all have our own philosophies. They aren't hard to understand either. I suggest that you try to plug your camera directly into a monitor and experiment with different exposures and custom presets with no tape running. This will give you a good idea of what it's capable of.

Congratulations on your new camera Azril! Now it's time for some due diligence on your part. Experiment around a little and learn as you go.

Mark Goodsell · December 18th, 2003, 06:58 PM

I was like you, I had a TRV17, then bought a VX2000. It's kind of like Matt said, outdoors in good light the footage will not look dramatically different on a regular TV. But as you're probably finding out, under nearly ALL circumstances, the image will appear more crisp and colors more briliant -- especially skin tones. My initial impression was "why did I wait SO long to get a 3CCD cam.) Give yours a try, I think you will agree.

What accessories have you purchased with your cam?

Mark G

Yik Kuen · December 19th, 2003, 07:36 PM

Hi Azril,

1-chipper uses a color mask and some clever estimation trick to resolve color. 3CCDs cams give your crisper images because every single pixel is able to pickup a precise color. For the 1 chipper, each pixel needs to rely on its adjacent neighbour to help predict its own colour.

For a better comparison, try looking into smaller objects in your shoots, like clothings logo, coloured texts on small calendar etc.

Now try filming a christmas tree (from a distance) lit with color lights. I'm pretty sure that your VX could resolve the lights' color perfectly, while the 17 may not, especially, if the lights fall into 1 or 2 pixels size.

Gints Klimanis · December 19th, 2003, 07:51 PM

That comparison only applies if the 1-chipper and the 3-chipper have CCDs of similar resolution.

Yik Kuen · December 19th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Hi Gints,

You are right, and that's the reason why most newer single CCD cams incorporate higher pixel count like 680K, 800K or even up to 2M to improve the approximation of colours.

If I'm not wrong, the TRV17 uses a 680K CCD, not too bad but it still doesn't come close to a 3 chipper even with only 400K pixels.

For the newer cams like PC330K, with 2M pixels used for video, you'll find it extremely close to 3CCDs. If we can ignore the low light and OIS issue, the PC330K/TRV950 might outperform the VX

Yik Kuen · December 19th, 2003, 10:32 PM

Hi Azril,

I'm sure you'll appreciate your new VX. I've personally tested on various cams such as 18,22,110,950 (my ex-cam), PD-150 (partner's).

I was amazed too when the PC110 comes very close to PD-150 under bright sunny day on a tripod. But, when it comes to shooting indoors and handheld, these smaller cams just couldn't beat their bigger brothers in terms of quality and saturation.

Gints Klimanis · December 19th, 2003, 11:12 PM

From my understanding of the color mosaic patterns, single CCD cameras capture 1/2 the green, 1/4 the blue and 1/4 the red.
This mosaic data is then interpolated to yield the missing data.
From this, Ia 400K x 4 = 1600K pixel CCD should approximate the accuracy of three single color 400K CCD arrays. I've seen some
new single chip camcorders with CCDs of that size, so there's little reason to dwell on the past. A larger CCD and faster image processors should eliminate the need for 3 chip cameras at DV-resolution. Of course, all of that will change with an increase in resolution, such as Hi definition DV. I suspect that three chippers (each 1.600 Mpixels) will be popular at the high end until the 3x1.6 = 4.8 MPixel CCDs are used in single chippers in HD.

Gints Klimanis · December 19th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Color accuracy is still a function of area, so the single chip arrays will need an area 3x that of each of the three chipper CCDs.

December 18th, 2003, 10:26 AM	#1
Azril Aziz Tourist Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 3	True performance of VX2100? I'm just starting out a small video business & Just bought a vx2100 pal yesterday,(an upgrade from a 2 yrs old sony 1 chipper TRV 17) . What do suprise me is when in auto mode i can say the vx2100 picture is not really much different from my 1 chipper, I played it direct to my tv & compared it..its not just me..my mom & wife also thinks the same. I can say the vx2100 is maybe only 10% better than my 1 chipper. I've tried the manual settings but cold not really get it right. So for the price i paid (4x than my 1 chipper) of coz i would expect the vx will perform much2 better than my 1 chipper. or am i just expecting too much? do u use the custom preset setting & what value do u change So for VX2k/2100/pd150 expert out there, could some of u give me some tips to make the camera better. Maybe i can try same setting of yours. btw i use a cheap kenko uv filter for the vx? will the cheap uv filter affect the vx performance? Thanks..

December 18th, 2003, 06:58 PM	#4
Mark Goodsell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: WI Posts: 367	I was like you, I had a TRV17, then bought a VX2000. It's kind of like Matt said, outdoors in good light the footage will not look dramatically different on a regular TV. But as you're probably finding out, under nearly ALL circumstances, the image will appear more crisp and colors more briliant -- especially skin tones. My initial impression was "why did I wait SO long to get a 3CCD cam.) Give yours a try, I think you will agree. What accessories have you purchased with your cam? Mark G __________________ Mark Goodsell

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December 18th, 2003, 11:17 AM	#2
Matt Stahley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Waynesboro, PA Posts: 648	Personally I dont use the custom presets on my VX2k. I will make any adjustments in post. But as far as the footage from my 2k compared to my one chip PC-110. In very good light outside its a very close match but the richness and color etc. of the 2k blows the 110 away IMO . A good test is to take both cams out in low light and compare then you will see where the 2100 pays off. Also learn to use the manual focus and exposure settings.Once you get into the cam you will ask yourself why you didnt buy one sooner!

December 18th, 2003, 01:50 PM	#3
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Also, when you say you played it on your TV... what kind of TV? What kind of connection? Did you use s-video? That can also make a big difference. Matt is right, you need to learn to use the manual controls and it really isn't so hard. Hint: start by understanding the zebra patterns - do a search of the forums here. Now I can't imagine why one wouldn't use the custom presets personally, but I suppose we all have our own philosophies. They aren't hard to understand either. I suggest that you try to plug your camera directly into a monitor and experiment with different exposures and custom presets with no tape running. This will give you a good idea of what it's capable of. Congratulations on your new camera Azril! Now it's time for some due diligence on your part. Experiment around a little and learn as you go.

December 19th, 2003, 07:36 PM	#5
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Azril, 1-chipper uses a color mask and some clever estimation trick to resolve color. 3CCDs cams give your crisper images because every single pixel is able to pickup a precise color. For the 1 chipper, each pixel needs to rely on its adjacent neighbour to help predict its own colour. For a better comparison, try looking into smaller objects in your shoots, like clothings logo, coloured texts on small calendar etc. Now try filming a christmas tree (from a distance) lit with color lights. I'm pretty sure that your VX could resolve the lights' color perfectly, while the 17 may not, especially, if the lights fall into 1 or 2 pixels size.

December 19th, 2003, 07:51 PM	#6
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	That comparison only applies if the 1-chipper and the 3-chipper have CCDs of similar resolution.

December 19th, 2003, 10:20 PM	#7
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Gints, You are right, and that's the reason why most newer single CCD cams incorporate higher pixel count like 680K, 800K or even up to 2M to improve the approximation of colours. If I'm not wrong, the TRV17 uses a 680K CCD, not too bad but it still doesn't come close to a 3 chipper even with only 400K pixels. For the newer cams like PC330K, with 2M pixels used for video, you'll find it extremely close to 3CCDs. If we can ignore the low light and OIS issue, the PC330K/TRV950 might outperform the VX

December 19th, 2003, 10:32 PM	#8
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Azril, I'm sure you'll appreciate your new VX. I've personally tested on various cams such as 18,22,110,950 (my ex-cam), PD-150 (partner's). I was amazed too when the PC110 comes very close to PD-150 under bright sunny day on a tripod. But, when it comes to shooting indoors and handheld, these smaller cams just couldn't beat their bigger brothers in terms of quality and saturation.

December 19th, 2003, 11:12 PM	#9
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	From my understanding of the color mosaic patterns, single CCD cameras capture 1/2 the green, 1/4 the blue and 1/4 the red. This mosaic data is then interpolated to yield the missing data. From this, Ia 400K x 4 = 1600K pixel CCD should approximate the accuracy of three single color 400K CCD arrays. I've seen some new single chip camcorders with CCDs of that size, so there's little reason to dwell on the past. A larger CCD and faster image processors should eliminate the need for 3 chip cameras at DV-resolution. Of course, all of that will change with an increase in resolution, such as Hi definition DV. I suspect that three chippers (each 1.600 Mpixels) will be popular at the high end until the 3x1.6 = 4.8 MPixel CCDs are used in single chippers in HD.

December 19th, 2003, 11:15 PM	#10
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Color accuracy is still a function of area, so the single chip arrays will need an area 3x that of each of the three chipper CCDs.