F3 4:4:4 recording solution? Forget the gemini!

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

The Gemini 4:4:4, with the ARRIRAW Option will only be able to record ARRIRAW from ARRI cameras.

At this time, the Sony PMW-F3 does not have a RAW Option, thus, we can not record RAW from it.

[Duke Marsh]

I thought maybe the Gemini might be getting an ARRI-RAW codec. The Gemini records uncompressed now, and the fact that it doesn't process the signal allows it to record that huge stream of data.

Does the Gemini have enough processing power to ever do any sort of compression?

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

We have not announced compressed modes within the Gemini 4:4:4.

There are many reasons for this:

1. We do not want to be a company that always announces features; then it takes a long time to deliver.

2. We are working very hard on ARRIRAW (and this project is going extremely well).

3. There are technical hurdles in implementing compressed modes in our unit.
To do the very best job for our customers, we have to implement the codec from scratch.

4. We do not want to announce anything until we have proven that we can implement it.


Now, to answer your question, precisely as you wrote it:

"Does the Gemini have enough processing power to ever do any sort of compression?"

The answer is "Yes, Definitely".


Now, to be clear, the amount of processing power to do a codec, say DNxHD 36 is vastly different than doing a very high quality implementation of DNxHD, such as DNxHD 220x or their new 4:4:4 version.

We are seriously listening to our customers, and potential customers in their reqests for a compressed codec option inside the Gemini 4:4:4.

Please forgive me, but many have not realized the following, so we are trying to get the word out.

One can record full uncompressed, then instead of transferring the uncompressed footage to a computer, use the uncompessed footage for the "First Encode" to any codec, any flavor, any bit-rate, it is actually your choice.

And depending on your computer and hard disk drives, it can be a faster process.
On a decent speed computer with fast disk drives, it will be just a little slower than transferring full uncompressed. So, your mileage may vary depending on your comptuer.

And a final technical note:

The "First Encode" is technically identical to having a camera that can encode the full uncompressed data from the camera's sensor, into the codec implemented within the camera.

Most cameras (if not all) have built in just one codec and just a few flavors or bit-rates.

But, using the Gemini 4:4:4, you record the full uncompressed, then have your choice of most any codec during the "First Encode".

Any, if you decide to save the full uncompressed, you have the option to deliver, for example, ProRes to your client, and then later provide DNxHD or any other codec/flavor/bit-rate.

[Duke Marsh]

Dan,

I know you guys get the job done and pay great attention to upgrades. I loved all the multiple free firmware upgrades for my Nano that added many new features along the way. If the Nano had been able to be converted to 10 bit I'd have kept it as it would beat all the others.

I am greatly encouraged that the Gemini does have some processing power. I can understand how many could overlook that their data wrangler can do a first encode as they are importing, but tiny productions (most of us) don't have data wranglers or the time. That's when uncompressed.

When the Gemini does have some sort of compression scheme I'll certainly be giving it a second look as a way to get the most out of my camera.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Duke,

Thank you!

Please feel free to call me to discuss the nanoFlash or Gemini 4:4:4.

My numbers are at the bottom of this page.

Support | Convergent Design

[John Banovich]

Hi Steve,

We used both the Cinedeck RX and EX models recording in 4:4:4 uncompressed .MOV on the F3 with S-LOG (and in some cases only with a PP/Gamma control) and the .MXF on the 3700. Two projects were shot in July and one in September. As they were rental units (we were holding out for the Gemini 4:4:4) I can not definitively state which firmware versions were loaded.

We also found that longer records in warmer temperatures would cause the unit to over heat as the fan would cycle down once it started recording. The longer the fan ran between records, the quicker the batteries drained. Most of the time, we were shooting on location with out AC, so the ratio of Dionic 160 batteries on the F3 was approximately 2.5 to 1 and on the 3700 the ratio was approx 2 to 1 (partially due to the servo/zoom)

Hope that helps.

John Banovich, csc, BFM
Director/Field Producer/Cinematographer

[Steve Kimmel]

Thanks John, that does help.

When you say that the ratio of Dionic 160 batteries on the F3 was approximately 2.5 to 1, do you mean that you used 2.5 Dionics on the Cinedeck for every 1 needed for the F3 (i.e., you used separate batteries for each)? If so, how much run time would you estimate you got from a single Dionic on the Cinedeck?

Thanks again.

[John Banovich]

Hi Steve

Yes, it was in fact 2.5 Dionic 160 batteries on the Cinedeck for every 1 on the F3. Run time was dependant on a few factors but the biggest was fan running time. The longer the fan ran, the shorter the battery life. We were able to get close to 4 hours at the beginning of the day, but as the unit got hotter and the daytime temperature did as well, the batteries were only good for 2.5 hours max. (fan ran continuous)

Compared to the Gemini 4:4:4 were we get 6 hours (up to 7 in some cases) with a single Dionic 160 for BOTH the F3 and the Gemini. Another concern we had with the Cinedeck was the Windows based OS and the lack of processor/bus interface/connectivity.

I understand Sony has addressed the later issue with their SS-R1 (also .DPX available), unfortunately significantly more expensive.

John Banovich, csc, BFM
Director/Field Producer/Cinematographer

[Steve Kimmel]

Thanks John, again, for the very useful info.

[Svetolik Bajevic]

Greetings to all, my first post and it is issue:




What is exactly set up for the Sony pmw f3 and sinedeck extreme?

I cant get input signal to Sinedeck from the F3 despite every recommended set up.
There is no option 23, 98 Pfs in the Cinedeck many, 23, 98P only.
What is the update version for the Cinedeck that works with F3?
Some screenshots will be of great help.


Mean while knowing that sony f3 25p output is a progresive segmented one Ps and that maybe is presented an detected at the input as intrerlaced i, I have switched on the cinedeck to 1080 50i option, despite that settings on the camera was 25p and finally I got signal and recording to file.
I will check file info later on the Mac.
I have checked the recorded file, it is 1920x1080 25, on the mac info, there is no typical interlacing lines during fast panning so it is progressive too, so far.
Do someone know exactly what is going on here?

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Christoph Tilley

Hi there,

since I got my S-Log upgrade for my F3 I have been searching/waiting for the perfect 4:4:4 recorder and I was quite sure that I'll buy a Gemini444 when it is available. Now I have built my own setup at half the price of the Gemini with even more features. And it works great!

Read about my workflow here:
Sony F3 4:4:4 RGB uncompressed workflow | _mxr blog

Compared to the Gemini444 workflow there is one big disadvantage: it’s bulky, big, heavy, and you need external power supply – no batteries. But remember: the Gemini 444 records onto SSDs with a max capacity of 512GB. The Gemini can span over two SSDs which gives you a max capacity of 1024GB and a recording duration of approx. two hours. When you shoot more than two hours of footage on set you have to buy additional SSDs or download the footage into a DIT-station which is practically the same thing as my workflow – a computer with a RAID.

======================

I know it's an old post but if someone wants to pair up a Sony F3 and RGB S-LOG external recording here is one suggestion.

In my humble opinion a much more flexible smaller portable setup using an AJA Ki Pro Quad offers a much more workable setup. Ki Pro units can be found at very reasonable prices on eBay and other sales sites.

The AJA Ki Pro Quad will accept and record a 10-bit RGB 4:4:4 S-Log Dual-Link SDI signal from the Sony PMW-F3.

Setup Requirements & Considerations

Sony PMW-F3 License Key (CBK-RGB01)
Your F3 must have the RGB / S-Log option enabled (CBK-RGB01 key installed) to output 10-bit 4:4:4 RGB over Dual-Link SDI A and B ports.

Cabling. Connect SDI Out A from the PMW-F3 to SDI In 1 on the Ki Pro Quad.
Connect SDI Out B from the PMW-F3 to SDI In 2 on the Ki Pro Quad.

Ki Pro Quad Menu Configuration
Video Input Selection: Set the input format in the Ki Pro Quad's menu to SDI 1-2 RGB (or Dual-Link 4:4:4).
Video Codec: Select ProRes 4444 to preserve the full 10-bit (or 12-bit) 4:4:4 RGB color sampling and S-Log dynamic range.

PsF Settings: Since the F3 outputs 1080p 23.98/25/29.97 as Progressive Segmented Frame (PsF) over SDI, ensure the Ki Pro Quad's Record Type is set to PsF so it correctly interprets and flags the incoming dual-link signal.

Monitoring
The Ki Pro Quad supports applying a 1D LUT on its dedicated SDI/HDMI monitor outputs, allowing you to convert the flat S-Log image to Rec.709 on set while recording the clean S-Log master to SSD media.

Look at these options

Ki Pro

https://picclick.com/?q=aja+Ki+Pro+Quad

Media Paks

https://picclick.com/?q=AJA+PAK512+5...ve+for+Ki+Pro+

AJA Link

https://www.aja.com/products/ki-pro-quad/spec-sheet.pdf

Chris Young

[Svetolik Bajevic]

Thanks for that and to confirm that cinedeck with setings 50i in order to record from Sony pmw f3 with dual link 3g 4444 Slog SDI 25p output, records 25p with wrong metadata that is interlaced.

I have checked recorded shot that was against bright light and got texture and details in shadows with no burned highlights that was easy to grade.
Display is visible under sun, no fullhd, nothing fancy, but no mistakes here. It gives just what is needed.
Very useful combo where cinedeck is joy to use after some sweat and balancing on the camera.
Worth every cent of 200$ and effort to get it work.
I will check detailed with newer software.