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-   Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-pxw-fs7-fs5/)
-   -   New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-pxw-fs7-fs5/524864-new-sony-fs7-4k-xdcam-ibc-2014-a.html)

Jeremy Doyle October 3rd, 2014 12:28 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but does this camera offer cache recording?

Barry J. Weckesser October 3rd, 2014 02:24 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Looks like the 128 GB G series XQD cards are going to come in somewhere between $ 640 and $675. CVP told me in an email they expected the street price to be around 400 pounds and BPM (out of Germany) is listing a price of 540 Euros. Maybe we will get a further price break on this side of the pond?

Christopher Young October 3rd, 2014 08:23 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser (Post 1862849)
I want to be able to realize the full potential of this camera and not be hindered by my lack of experience and time constraints.
Seriously I don't think you would have much problem or waste much time grading the S-Gamut3.Cine/SLog3 footage. Not an ideal file to work with as it's already been heavily compressed for the web but I had a play with the S7 three minute promo video that was shot S-Gamut3.Cine/SLog3.

Even with the fact that it is a heavily compressed file I found its overall color and luminance dynamics easy to work with as grade starting point. Very easy and quick to get a 'look' with. I'm not saying it's a grade that everyone will like but for my clients if I was to deliver something along the lines of the attached JPGs I know they would be happy. If anyone wants to look at the full grade both the original and my test files are available here.

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/trxs4i

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Barry J. Weckesser October 4th, 2014 07:16 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Young (Post 1863598)
Seriously I don't think you would have much problem or waste much time grading the S-Gamut3.Cine/SLog3 footage. Not an ideal file to work with as it's already been heavily compressed for the web but I had a play with the S7 three minute promo video that was shot S-Gamut3.Cine/SLog3.

Even with the fact that it is a heavily compressed file I found its overall color and luminance dynamics easy to work with as grade starting point. Very easy and quick to get a 'look' with. I'm not saying it's a grade that everyone will like but for my clients if I was to deliver something along the lines of the attached JPGs I know they would be happy. If anyone wants to look at the full grade both the original and my test files are available here.

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/trxs4i

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney
Chris - I do like the grading - it really makes the images "pop" without overdoing it.

Could you share some details like what software you used and how long it takes to set up a profile to achieve the look?

As Alister mentioned, there are also guidelines on how to use the proper exposure levels when shooting in these log curves - any reading material you can point me to?

Christopher Young October 4th, 2014 10:17 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Most of my work is quick turn around and the budgets don't allow hours of grading time so a quick way of doing a simple grade without round tripping through DaVinci or some other time consuming software method was required.

This little exercise was done in Sony Vegas 13 using only Sony's Color Curves and the NewBlue ColorFast plugin. The ColorFast plugin for its price is pretty amazing as you can eye dropper select and manipulate almost any part of the image from highlights to shadows and in any of those areas tweak the tint, saturation and levels. You also have the ability to create grade masks if necessary. Once you have learnt the plugin it will only take you a couple of minutes to dial in a pretty acceptable 'look' that belies the little time spent on it.

In Vegas you can save any combination of plugins you use as a 'filter' set and then re-apply them as required and if needed tweak from shot to shot. It's obviously easier when the footage you are working with has been exposed correctly, especially if it has been shot in any of the LOG modes.

I haven't worked in S-LOG3 as yet but have done a fair whack of shooting and grading in S-LOG2 and find if I keep the max white levels to 59 IRE and skin exposure Zebras to around 45 IRE then all seems pretty easy to grade without much drama. Even in 8-bit recordings as long as youre original footage was exposed correctly. If I need to get pretty aggressive on a grade especially with chroma-key grades then I shoot 10-bit to ProRes or DNxHD. The basic principles for exposing in LOG3 are basically the same although the levels are a little different.

The easiest way for me to get exposure right so to speak is to use a waveform monitor. I use an Alphatron viewfinder that has an inbuilt WFM so that takes most of guesswork out. Its one of the few viewfinders that incorporates a zebra function that can be set anywhere from 0 to 100 IRE. Makes exposing for LOG fairly straight forward. If the footage is exposed correctly you don't have to push and pull too hard in the grade to get a decent look. It's also made a lot easier if the footage you are working with comes from a camera with a wide dynamic range, such as the S7 is claiming. If its like any of the other Sony S35 cameras then it will have.

Re reading material, well it was Alistair's early earlier suggestions that pointed me in the right direction when LOG material started to appear in cameras that mere mortals could afford, like the Sony F3. Just a reasonable amount of practice and trying different grading tools and methods was my way learning to extract the best out of LOG footage quickly.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Barry J. Weckesser October 5th, 2014 10:54 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1863108)
One of the nice things about this camera, like the F5/F55 is that when you use the CineEI mode you can if you wish choose to bake in the LUT. Shoot some simple test S-Log3 clips and then take these into you're preferred grading package. Grade the clips until you get the look or style that you want. Then save the LUT as a 3D Cube LUT. Then load the LUT into the FS7 as a user LUT.

Normally you will have the LUT's set so that they are added to the viewfinder output, HDMI out and one of the two HDSDI outs. The recordings remain LUT free, so they are S-log3. Then normally you would bring the Slog3 footage in to the grading suite and apply the same LUT either globally (as an output LUT) or on a clip by clip basis. The footage will then have the look you created when you did you test shots. This is actually a VERY simple workflow. If you edit with Adobe Premiere CC you can use the Lumetri plugin to add the LUT very quickly.... job done... no need to grade, the LUT will do all the work. This workflow has the benefit of allowing you to change your mind. If you decide you don't like the look it's just a case of creating a new LUT or grading the underlying S-Log3 material.

The less conventional approach is to turn on the LUT's for the internal recordings. When you do this the LUT is applied to the recordings. This way the footage will have your desired look baked in, so there is no need to do any grading. In effect you are grading as you shoot. But the downside is that once the LUT is baked in you won't have the same degree of adjustability if you change your mind as your recordings are no longer S-log3.
Alister - thanks for the advice. I had the time this morning to "wade through" (not meant as a criticism - I have only self taught knowledge of the technical aspects of videography - it would be the same thing if you tried wading through an article in one of my medical journals) your excellent CineE treatise on the F5/55 and I believe I understand most of the concepts and hopefully they will transfer over to the FS7.

What I came away with -

1. Shoot in the S-Log3 mode and keep the MLUT off for internal recording so your footage remains S-Log3.

2. For most purposes use LUT 709(800) for the viewfinder.(you mentioned using this most often). Zebras kept at 90%?

3. Bring the native S-Log3 footage into my NLE and apply the same LUT (or other customized LUT) to the footage - either globally or clip by clip (would prefer global). Where I may have a problem is that I'm not sure if I can apply LUT's in Edius Pro 7 - (as you can in Premiere Pro via plugin).

4. Where I may have a problem is shooting in either a higher or lower E level depending on lighting conditions - are you talking about changing settings on the menu or changing gain levels and then adjusting iris levels accordingly (I apologize if this is a stupid question).

Alister Chapman October 6th, 2014 01:53 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
If you use the 709(800) LUT and shoot a white card the white should be around 90%, so you can use 90% zebras if you wish.

Ideally, when working with log you want to grade using a proper grading tool such as DaVinci Resolve. LUT handling will be easier and grading capabilities better. However some NLE's such as Premiere CC have built in grading tools and can add LUT's. I don't know about Edius, but at the very least you should be able to edit in Edius and then export an XML file which would allow you to open your project in Resolve for finishing.

In the cineEI mode you are not changing the gain of the camera overall but changing the gain of the LUT's. So the LUT's become brighter/darker. In response to a brighter/darker picture in the viewfinder you would then close/open the iris to gain a "normal" looking exposure. This the alters the brightness of the recording, which you will then adjust further in post.

CineEI is a tricky concept, you have to stop thinking about camera gain and think more about post production gain. The aim is to get the best "digital negative" that will provide the optimum results after grading. Without grading it might look like rubbish. The grading aspect, which might simply be done with a LUT is critical to the final result.

I'm running workshops at the Vistek event in Toronto on Oct 15th/16th, then at the SEVA film festival in Virginia Oct 18/19th, Midtown Video, Miami Oct 24/25th, AbelCine NY, Oct 28th.

Barry J. Weckesser October 6th, 2014 05:14 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1863813)
If you use the 709(800) LUT and shoot a white card the white should be around 90%, so you can use 90% zebras if you wish.

Ideally, when working with log you want to grade using a proper grading tool such as DaVinci Resolve. LUT handling will be easier and grading capabilities better. However some NLE's such as Premiere CC have built in grading tools and can add LUT's. I don't know about Edius, but at the very least you should be able to edit in Edius and then export an XML file which would allow you to open your project in Resolve .
Edius does not support LUTs directly but there is a way going through AE and using LUT Buddy from Red Giant but it sounds rather cumbersome. Edius does have some good color correction tools - the more advanced one being the YUV color filter. I found a curve with the proper nodes on the curves that simulated a Cinestyle LUT and applied it to a CineE1 4k clip (XAVC Intra) from the net (F55) and it looked rather good. I feel, with a bit of experience I could make my own that would be a good first step in grading S-Log3 clips.

Steve Kimmel October 6th, 2014 07:43 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser (Post 1863905)
Edius does not support LUTs directly but there is a way going through AE and using LUT Buddy from Red Giant but it sounds rather cumbersome. Edius does have some good color correction tools - the more advanced one being the YUV color filter. I found a curve with the proper nodes on the curves that simulated a Cinestyle LUT and applied it to a CineE1 4k clip (XAVC Intra) from the net (F55) and it looked rather good. I feel, with a bit of experience I could make my own that would be a good first step in grading S-Log3 clips.
Any way to share that curve for us Edius users? Thanks.

Brian Jansen October 6th, 2014 08:39 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
While there is no import/export for the YUV Curve in Edius, each node is based on values of 0-255 in each X and Y axis. So it does seem possible to create and save a YUV Curve by editing the nodes from curve data.

Steve Kimmel October 6th, 2014 09:03 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Jansen (Post 1863919)
While there is no import/export for the YUV Curve in Edius, each node is based on values of 0-255 in each X and Y axis. So it does seem possible to create and save a YUV Curve by editing the nodes from curve data.
So, if someone posted the X/Y values for each node, I could recreate the YUV Curve. Too bad it's not easier in Edius.

Barry J. Weckesser October 6th, 2014 09:15 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kimmel (Post 1863913)
Any way to share that curve for us Edius users? Thanks.
As you requested:

Also the link on the original discussion:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/grass-va...edius-yuv.html

Alister Chapman October 7th, 2014 12:57 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
But a simple curve won't sort out the color space correctly, that really does need a LUT to be done right. Not saying you can't grade without LUT's but it's a heck of a lot easier if you can use LUT's. With LUT's you can build up a collection of looks that you can quickly apply in a matter if minutes. In addition if you really want to take full advantage of the CineEI mode in the FS7 you are probably going to want to find a way to generate your own LUT's to upload to the camera.

Don't be afraid of round tripping from your edit package into a grading package. It's normally pretty straight forward and the additional tools and features you'll find in a good color tool such as Resolve can transform the look of your work.

Barry J. Weckesser October 7th, 2014 08:15 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1863948)
But a simple curve won't sort out the color space correctly, that really does need a LUT to be done right. Not saying you can't grade without LUT's but it's a heck of a lot easier if you can use LUT's. With LUT's you can build up a collection of looks that you can quickly apply in a matter if minutes. In addition if you really want to take full advantage of the CineEI mode in the FS7 you are probably going to want to find a way to generate your own LUT's to upload to the camera.

Don't be afraid of round tripping from your edit package into a grading package. It's normally pretty straight forward and the additional tools and features you'll find in a good color tool such as Resolve can transform the look of your work.
Alister - (as usual) your points are without refute. It looks as though I will trip over to Davinci Resolve 11 Lite.

Edius has recently made this significantly easy (see the instruction file from Edius/Grass Valley):

http://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Appl...US_DaVinci.pdf

Once I have my clips in Resolve I assume it is a simple matter to apply say the Rec709 LUT from the camera to the clips as a starting point? If I get bold enough could I then tweak the look of the LUT a bit and save it as a user present and reimport it back to the camera (I believe you mentioned 3D cube)?

I was dreading this but now am looking forward to playing around with it before my FS7K arrives in December and be up to speed for LOG grading and editing.

Thanks again for the advice.

PS - After some more reading - to render back to Edius in 4K I will need to pony up $1,000 for the full version.

Alister Chapman October 8th, 2014 05:30 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
You only need the full version if you want to render at 4096x2160. The lite version will do 3840x2160 which is the consumer TV 4K standard. The FS7 won't have 4096x2160 at launch anyway.

Yes, once in Resolve just add the LUT you want. All the standard Sony LUT's are available to download. For a REC709 output you would nominally use the 709 LUT. Another very popular LUT for Sony S-Log3 footage is the LC-709A LUT which mimics the Arri Alexa extremely closely. As Sony's S-log3 and SGamut3 is very close to Cineon and Arri's LogC most LogC LUT's can also be used if you want different looks. If you apply your chosen LUT as an output LUT in Resolve it gets applied to all the clips. Then you can still fine tune each clip on a clip by clip basis if you want.

Christopher Young October 8th, 2014 05:48 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Thx. Great info Alistair.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Paul Chiappini October 10th, 2014 06:08 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
In case anyone hasn't seen these:

Barry J. Weckesser October 11th, 2014 09:36 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
1 Attachment(s)
Does anyone recognize this Sony camera bag from the FS7 promotional video from Sony - seems like perfect size for carrying the FS7K in the field.

Barry J. Weckesser October 11th, 2014 09:39 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser (Post 1864535)
Does anyone recognize this Sony camera bag from the FS7 promotional video from Sony - seems like perfect size for carrying the FS7K in the field.
Another view - apparently I can only post one pic at a time.

Barry J. Weckesser October 11th, 2014 09:51 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Here is the link to the promotional video - the camera bag is shown at about 1 minute into the video.

Brian Rhodes October 12th, 2014 06:46 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Here is another link The Cheesemonger - FS7 Camera Test Project

David Johns October 12th, 2014 07:22 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser (Post 1864535)
Does anyone recognize this Sony camera bag from the FS7 promotional video from Sony - seems like perfect size for carrying the FS7K in the field.
That appears identical to my LCS-G1BP though I don't know if Sony make different sized versions of the same design.

Buy - Sony LCS-G1BP (LCSG1BP) Soft Carry Case for HVR-V1E, HDR-FX7E, HVR-Z1 and HDR-FX1 Camcorders

Regards
David

Barry J. Weckesser October 12th, 2014 10:15 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johns (Post 1864622)
That appears identical to my LCS-G1BP though I don't know if Sony make different sized versions of the same design.

Buy - Sony LCS-G1BP (LCSG1BP) Soft Carry Case for HVR-V1E, HDR-FX7E, HVR-Z1 and HDR-FX1 Camcorders

Regards
David
Thank you very much David - that is it!! It appears to be only available in Europe. I checked dimensions and the FS7K will definitely fit. Is this a new item or have you had it for awhile? I can order through CVP but the postage is rather dear!

Ron Evans October 12th, 2014 10:40 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
This may be a similar case in the US. Soft Carrying Case - LCSVCC Review | Sony Store U.S. - Sony US.

Ron Evans

Brian Rhodes October 12th, 2014 11:40 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
PXW - FS7 "LIGHT SPHERE"







PXW - FS7 "MAKING OF LIGHT SPHERE"

David Johns October 13th, 2014 08:31 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser (Post 1864636)
Thank you very much David - that is it!! It appears to be only available in Europe. Is this a new item or have you had it for awhile?
I've had mine for ages; got it with a Sony HVR-V1E HDV/DV camcorder in 2008 ish I think? Can't help on the postage front alas ;-(

Cheers
Dave

Barry J. Weckesser October 13th, 2014 01:50 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
[QUOTE=David Johns;1864725]I've had mine for ages; got it with a Sony HVR-V1E HDV/DV camcorder in 2008 ish I think? Can't help on the postage front alas ;-(

Cheers
Dave[/QUOTE

Actually, I think it has been discontinued and CVP may get one in by end of November so I ordered a new one off EBay - coming from Korea! From what I can determine on the video that shows the d.p. getting the camera out of the bag (going frame by frame) it is a tight but doable fit (the microphone mount comes up about 20mm) but should be workable. I like the idea of taking the entire camera out of the bag in an upright position and using it quickly + the bag height should be ok for overhead luggage racks on an airplane.

Anthony Trotter October 14th, 2014 06:51 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
I had a chance to go to Sony and have a look at the FS7. I'm really impressed with it. Here's the blog I wrote about it.
http://geartrotter.com/meeting-the-s...-fs7-in-tokyo/

Anthony Trotter October 14th, 2014 11:43 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Doyle (Post 1863572)
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but does this camera offer cache recording?
I'm curious about this, too. It's essential. This article in German says that the camera will cache record. Sony PXW-FS7; S35mm Schulterkamera

Stewart Hemley October 19th, 2014 02:51 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
I have this camera on order and I wonder if it has a sensor cleaning system? I'll be using it in a few dusty places and changing lenses often so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. My Canon 5D has been used in similar places and not a speck of dust has reared its ugly little head. My Hasselblad, on the other hand, needs a blow from the rocket as soon as you lift it out the bag. I've checked the specs but can't see any mention.

Jim Martin October 20th, 2014 11:50 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
I had the camera in my hands on Saturday and to say the least, very impressed....balance, viewfinder (nice diopter) re-locatable grip, etc......it's going to do well

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Alister Chapman October 21st, 2014 02:50 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
No sensor cleaning system. The sensor is well protected in a sealed unit behind the optical port.

Stewart Hemley October 24th, 2014 12:46 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Thanks for the reply Alister. So I imagine it's not too dangerous to clean it, as long as you take reasonable care. I usually use the rocket blower thingy and that seems to shift most stuff.

Brian Rhodes October 26th, 2014 10:08 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Sony G Series XQD cards "PRE-ORDER"
Max. Read Speed: 400 MB/s
Max. Write Speed: 350 MB/s
Includes Dedicated USB 3.0 Adapter


32GB $163.00
64GB $363.00
128Gb $799.00

xqd cards g | B&H Photo Video

Dave Allen October 26th, 2014 10:35 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
At those prices for memory, it sort of makes the propriety SSD drives from Convergent Design for the Odyssey quite the bargain.

Galen Rath October 26th, 2014 10:56 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Let me see, 3 Sony memory cards or a Samsung NX1 with lens. Hmmm.

John Woo October 26th, 2014 11:20 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
reminds me of the $950 I paid for the 16GB SXS when EX1 was first launched. That was crazy price to paid back then but looks like history repeats itself

I was expecting Sony at least throw in a 32GB XQD card with FS7 purchase like what they did for EX1 with the free 8GB SXS card

Barry J. Weckesser October 27th, 2014 04:31 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Rhodes (Post 1866096)
Sony G Series XQD cards "PRE-ORDER"
Max. Read Speed: 400 MB/s
Max. Write Speed: 350 MB/s
Includes Dedicated USB 3.0 Adapter


32GB $163.00
64GB $363.00
128Gb $799.00

xqd cards g | B&H Photo Video
I believe these are not true USA "street prices". The street price will probably come in close to the price as seen here ($550 to $600) : Buy - Sony XQD-128A (XQD128A) 128GB XQD G Series Memory Card for Professional Shooting.

Otherwise people will be buying all their cards from England - even considering $40 shipping charge it is still a "bargain".

Glen Vandermolen October 27th, 2014 07:57 AM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
After buying many SxS and P2 cards over the years, the XQD cards are a bargain.

Glen Vandermolen November 6th, 2014 04:45 PM
Re: New Sony FS7 4K XDCAM at IBC 2014
 
I'm going to an FS7 demo tomorrow. It's crazy how excited I am over this.
I'm bringing my supply of E and A mount lenses.


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