DSLR with good audio?

[William Hohauser]

The GH3, at least the one I have, seems to work great with the Rode Video Microphone. Very good audio in most situations. My Sony wireless lavalier works decently but not as well as on a video camera. More unwanted level shifts. As soon as I try to use any sort of mixer or the Zoom recorder it's very noticeable compared to a separate recording source. And forget using the audio on the GH3 in a room with a loud air conditioner. Terrible.

However you have inspired me to try level 1 on the AGC.

[Roger Martin]

My understanding is that a cheap mic close to the source beats anything that can be mounted to a camera and is even better than any VideoCam.
However, most professionals actually do use the internal mic. It is used to synch the external recording.

The in-camera mics on a D800 are the best that I've used and can get you by for an interview.

I personally use a shoe mounted Azden shotgun mic for my GH4 "Home Movies",
but I would get external Sound and Video recorders if I were going to sell my Productions.

[Jonathan Levin]

As a photographer and semi-musician, bad sound sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Knowing what I know now, I want to re-record everything I've done from before a year ago.

One thing I've learned over the coarse of learning good audio hygene is to never if at all possible use internal audio on dslr unless it is a scratch track or in worse case scenario, back up audio if double system recorder craps out. And never mount mic on camera if possible: camera noise, and so on. You'll also have to crank the gain with camera mounted on camera which just exasperates the bad audio. You start to see the importance of a good sound person, or at very least someone who can handle a boom with a mic if it is not a lav.

AGC is weird and I'd avoid that too. Sound seems to always be trying to find a proper "level" and you can actually hear this. Drives me crazy.

So far I've made every mistake in the book, fortunately in the testing mode, and am still learning important stuff.

Remember. Unlike digital photos and to some extent video, you can't use a "photoshop" like app to really correct bad audio well.

And test. Test. Test!!! I recommend Jay Rose's book and definately all the great minds that are here on the audio forums.

Jonathan

[Jim Andrada]

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

[Kevin McRoberts]

Not exactly what you're asking for, but used FS100 and AF100 cinema cameras are selling for about as much as new-generation DSLR's, come in about the same size as a DSLR + pre-amp/recorder/etc, and include a number of other video features. Unless you need the stills capability or don't need sync sound, DSLRs make less and less sense.

Alternately, Sony makes the "XLR-K1M" which includes pre-amp, XLR inputs, audio pots, etc for several of its cameras (read up to see exactly which models). Expensive, but well-integrated.

[Jonathan Levin]

"DSLR's, come in about the same size as a DSLR + pre-amp/recorder/etc, and include a number of other video features. Unless you need the stills capability or don't need sync sound, DSLRs make less and less sense."

I've thought this for years!

And if you are doing anything run and gun, you are better off with a straight video camera IMHO. You also get into the expense of a sound person. Hard to be a SPC.

On the other hand if you are doing a sit down interview it is more than possible, though you will be busy.

Jonathan

[Roger Martin]

Actually not true for me.

My GH4 is smaller than many VideoCams and I do not need anything but a compact 12-35 lens.
The AFF is so fast and accurate that it does make a great "Run & Gun".
If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe.

[Joe Riggs]

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.

I know I can't get perfect audio but I'd like to get the best I can without the need for external recorders. Primarily thing would be to record dialogue for interviews but if it could work for live events like weddings, conferences would be a plus.

I've used the H4N before and it's fine, I just would like to reduce the amount of gear needed and record good audio into camera if possible.


I have this mic the ME66 with the K6 power supply. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/73100-REG/Sennheiser_ME66_K6_COMBO_ME66_K6_Super_Cardioid_Mic.html
Will this work with what this user describes

"For good results, use the Canon firmware, turn the audio level to one tick above minimum, and crank the preamp (or use a Rode Videomic Pro, which includes an active signal boost). Signal to noise will be good (about as good as an H4n), but you can do better.

The stock Canon firmware cranks the analog gain from the camera's preamp and manages the overall gain digitally. With Magic Lantern, we can turn down the analog gain in the camera and manage the digital gain separately. This reduces noise by another 6 to 9 dB by my measurements. With a juicedLink, this gets the noise very close to the floor for a 16-bit recording. There's no need for a cleaner external preamp as we've pretty much hit the S/N limit for the system."

[Roger Martin]

Originally Posted by Joe Riggs

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.

I know I can't get perfect audio but I'd like to get the best I can without the need for external recorders. Primarily thing would be to record dialogue for interviews but if it could work for live events like weddings, conferences would be a plus.

."

Some of the on board camera mics are OK but subject to lens and surround sounds.
The Azden mounts on the flash shoe with rubber and is directional.
Yes, it plugs directly into the camera mic jack without an adapter.
Not as good as dedicated mic system dubbed in later, but more than good enough for my work.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

I posted this in another thread, but here's an acoustic guitar duet recorded through a Rode NT4 stereo mic straight into the Lumix GH4 mic input:

Aloha Kaua`i - Slack Key Jam - YouTube

This GH4 has had the post-sale audio buzz fix applied. I thought the GH3 was marginally OK but not good enough to replace the external recorder (Zoom H6 usually) for my clips. Now that I have the GH4 I'm rethinking my approach.

Fran

[Roger Martin]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

Actually, I can capture "good" sound with my directional Azden MX-10.
There are some longer and more expensive shotgun mics that can pickup "better" from even further away. Of course, a dedicated sound system is "best".

[William Hohauser]

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...pressions.html

I just got the TASCAM dual mixer/PCM recorder unit. The link is to my first impressions.

[Bruce Foreman]

Originally Posted by Joe Riggs

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.

No adapter needed for this mic with most DSLRs, attached mic cable terminates in 1/8" mini stereo jack. My son has one of these he used with his HV30 and it actually sounds good when placed close to the talent. However I've not tried his on any of the DSLRs I had (gone mirrorless now with GH3 and GH4) and I would not use it with any camera that had AGC.

I will second William Hohauser's endorsement of the Tascam unit, I have the model previous to the one he referenced and with a stand mounted shotgun mic (AT 897 or Sony ECM 672) placed close to the talent but off to one side out of the frame I get good audio patched into the GH3/GH4 with two tracks recorded on an SDHC card in the Tascam (one of the tracks is a "safety" track running -6db below the main track.

[Jim Andrada]

I guess different people have different ideas about the definition of "good" My definition is if it works for what you do, it's good.

For classical performances where the main cam is at the back of the hall, in-camera/on-camera audio is useless. So I don't use it.

[Al Bergstein]

This post has been going on a while, but is interesting,and likely should be in the audio section for more feedback. But I thought, after reading it, I'd add my .02. The OP originally asked whether you could get adequate audio through a direct feed to the camera. My answer, after trying a lot of things is, "it depends". It depends on what your end result is going to be used for (one of the posters alluded to this). Out here in the Pacific NW I rarely can afford a sound person on my clients' budgets, all work is going to go to the web, and I have to shoot fairly fast. Not for large screens in theaters. So I've experimented with a variety of mic inputs and have found, amazingly enough, that some modern combinations can work fine for that kind of delivery. My 5dMkiii has much improved sound over either a 7D or earlier Mkii. Have I failed sometimes? you bet.

I can close mic using a *wired* lavalier or wireless lav directly in, and get, *if I'm careful about wind and levels* a pretty decent audio feed.(samples below). I also prefer to have either a SD mixpre-d for riding levels without hassle, or a Tascam DR60 so that I can get a second recording that comes in two channel and one of the channels is -10 below the other. So I end up with *three* recordings, one on the camera and two at different levels in the Tascam. This has been a great boon to my solo shooting efforts. Tascam has also brought out two new models, and they are *cheap* but fine quality for interview work. Good on Tascam for doing this! They do eat batteries though. So bring plenty. Zoom quality has never impressed me, having driven an H4 into the ground in less than two years. They look pretty though! When I need better quality sound I go into at least a Marantz 661 if not SD.

While these recordings are not meant to be Academy Award material, when I posted them to the audio threads Ty Ford said that he thought that things had improved with in camera sound since he had done his testing and thanked me for posting them. So I feel I can reshare them for the OPs' thoughts, if still relevant.

I assume that the GH4 and other new cameras can do at least as good a job as the 5dMkiii. But you will have to try them out yourselves. And just a final thought, I usually now use my C100 as it's a better video camera than any of my DSLRs. By the time you put all the add ons to a GH4, you can lease a C100. Sound quality is excellent and it also can record a second track at -10dB lower.

These recordings are only to show my results and give food for thought, not to try and say they are the answer or better than using a second sound system, such as an SD with someone knowledgeable running it. I *always* prefer having an audio guy with me, but often it's just impossible. If I was working in Seattle, then it would be likely to find someone.

This first sample has some room echo even with a lav on the guy, as it's a big empty room. I can't imagine that with that much hard surface I would have done better with anything other than a lav on his shirt. Would a boomed shotgun do better? The second is more indicative. And again, there was no wind that day.

12.12.12. - Jamestown SKlallam Tribal Wood Carvers - One Day On Earth on Vimeo

Jefferson County MRC - People and Projects on Vimeo

(please be kind about the titles, it was a fast job, the titles were chosen to be easily readable by budget minded politicians looking at an embedded web video page. I'm in the process of updating the whole thing for a December deadline)