Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Lots of static shots makes it worse because it/s so different.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

So you are saying that I can over do the movement but at the same time have too many static shots? I feel like if I move the camera during too many shots, then the movement becomes less impactful, when I want to have impact. But at the same time what would I be doing that would be over doing it?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Every camera movement needs a purpose. If it has a valid purpose it's good. Surely these are first week film school things. You seem totally unable to produce conclusions from your research. We simply don't work like this. I've never in my life had to try to rationalise very basic processes into kind of black and white. When people ask if I liked a movie, I don't think about the mechanics - I just know it was good, or bad. We're now at the level of single shots in a movie. This is just crazy. If you cannot engage your intuition, theres no hope you will move out of the talking phase of development.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

In this case it may imply more that you're wanting. As I mentioned earlier, "impact" in this situation could imply he going to blow his own brains out, rather than just being anxious about the cops

Your use of this move in the short is different because it's closer to a music video in style than a drama. Although, I'm not entirely sure that you fully understand what's being conveyed by some of your camera moves and cuts. As you say, you're going for impact rather than any deeper emotion.

A slow track in or even a slow zoom in (bearing in mind that you currently don't have a suitable lens) would be a more appropriate move.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Ryan, please study up on the difference between barrel distortion and wide angle perspective when used close to a subject.

The vast majority of modern lenses, even wide angle zooms, have very little to no noticeable distortion (barrel or pincushion), which is an optical design issue for the engineers. Wide lenses do, however, by their nature, exaggerate depth in a shot and can give unpleasant effects when used too close to human subjects or when shooting at extreme angles up or down in rectangular spaces.

Please try to use the terminology correctly.

All lenses and different fields of view have their own aesthetic uses and it's your job as a director to figure out what is appropriate for the action and emotion in each scene.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Greg - you mean the often seen huge nose syndrome! It only just clicked what Ryan was banging on about!

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This was discussed in another thread, but seemingly it hasn't gotten through.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but I feel that the zoom or dolly in, will not have quite the same emotional impact as the circling around in this case. I don't think there is a rule that this kind of camera movement belong in music videos only, I've seen movement just as elaborate than this done in movies, so I think it's okay. When I said impact, I meant emotional impact. I didn't mean to imply I wasn't going for emotion.

What just clicked? Did I miss something?

Sorry if I used the wrong terminology but a wide lens and an 85mm lens shape the face differently in a close up though. You can't just throw a wide lens on and say the face will look exactly the same, unless there are some special wide lenses that shape the face, just like an 85? I couldn't find the right terminology for this though so far. I'll keep looking. When I look this up on websites, a lot of sites talk about how focal lengths shape the face differently, but no one ever uses an actual word terminology for it on the sites I have looked on. I will keep looking.

On this site for example, they call it 'facial distortion', not sure if that's right, but if you look at the focal length examples of the person's face:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4164807

I would say that 70mm-100mm is where the face looks the best. So I would want to keep the focal length somewhere in there, assuming we are talking about a full frame camera. So since 85mm is a more popular focal length, I was thinking of using that one. I don't know the terminology for that, but that is what I mean. Sorry for using the wrong terminology. So for wide master shots, I can use a a 24 mm and it should look fine. It's just the CUs of faces that I do not like the look of on a wide lens.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

When I read his posts all I see is:

blahblabah...telephoto... blahblabah... wide angle... barrel distortion... blahblabah... compression... (repeat)

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You've also missed up the added horribleness that close in, wide angle AND MOVEMENT makes.

We're taking about compression or expansion - and usually we accept these two processes as distortion. Wide angles expand perspective and telephotos compress it. If the head turns, or the camera rotates around it, the poking out or going in bits change size - so the nose suddenly leaps out and then recedes as the ears enlarge.

We think you do know this, but keep calling it barrel distortion by mistake.


I've been thinking about all this emotional stuff - Maybe this is the part I lack? I'm not an emotional person and when selecting positions, angles, heights and movement all I think about is composition and shot purpose. I don't think I have ever designed a shot by thinking about emotion generation ever. The story generates the emotional content, and any movie that is emotional in intent is one to avoid like the plague for me. I like telling stories and I like images or image sequences to be smooth when required, or 'live' when some kind of excitement/realism is needed.

I can visualise this person looking out, and the camera rotating around them, and in my head the vertical height stays exactly the same, the horizon stays horizontal, and the rotational speed stays constant. The background will probably be sharp, and probably any edits in this sequence would also have identical movement parameters, but narrower angle with blurred background, which would cut together well. The purpose could be the subject seeing things important to the plot, or NOT seeing things he should, or maybe showing him thinking. emotion for me would not be there at all as a drive for the shot, as I don't understand the use of 'emotion' as a shot driver.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I choose I think about composition and shot purpose as well, but I also consider emotion combined with it, when thinking about the shots...

Like for example, there is a scene in a moving car where two people are driving. I could shoot from the front, with the camera going in the window, and I might for some shots. But I also want close up shots from the back seat. Cause it creates a mysterious emotional feel, since you cannot see as much of their faces, like they are being watched, or being followed, which is kind of what is happening.

That is just one example of emotional feel, cause if I were going without emotion, then I might just shoot in through the windshield for a more frontal view of the face, if that makes sense.

But when it comes to how the face is shaped, if I think that the face is bit too narrow and too pointy with a 50mm lens for example, then should I say there is too much 'expansion', in a 50mm?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Sorry but your shot has zero emotional impact. that comes from a connection with the character. It's just you trying to be clever with a shot, it's film student stuff.

"Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark" is on TV here and the static shots in that film carry has more anxiety than your proposed shot.

A circular shot will only work if it's wider and reveals the cops moving in closer on the character. It's a pointless shot in CU/ .

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well I have intercutting shots. You see the cops swarm in and you also see the close up him, looking around himself as the camera moves around him as they swarm in. So you have cuts of the cops coming in to fill the gap. The viewers will still know he is being surrounded therefore, wouldn't they?

But I was told before to come up with my own shots, and don't be influenced by others so much. So I am trying to storyboard the movie, my original way, rather than trying to be influenced from what I've seen before. How does one come up with their own shots, without it coming off as 'film student stuff'?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I knew what you're cutting to, but the audience isn't going to catch onto his anxiety because of your distracting shot. A static with his eyes moving as he follows the cops moving in around him will convey more anxiety and emotion. .

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Why won't the audience see the anxiety because of the movement in the shot though? What is it about the shot that would be distracting? I've seen movies where the camera moves all the time to convey character emotion, so why would it be distracting?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It would work of it's Jason Bourne being surrounded and then takes out the cops, but that's not about anxiety.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Why won't it work for anxiety though?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Because anxiety is an emotion that people register in the eyes of the character and the move spends very little time on the eyes. Also, the move is so unusual, that the audience may not even register any emotions in the character's eyes.

They'll only have one go at picking that up when watching the film, not the ages you've spent thinking about it .

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay I didn't think the move was so unusual, I've seen moves like that before as well. Well when you say the eyes, how close to the eyes are we talking here. You mean like so close that all you see is just the eyes mostly, like an extreme CU? Or would a normal CU suffice?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Like everyone is saying circular camera motion doesn’t convey any particular emotion in itself. Heck it’s used commonly in wedding videos. Dam your movie making approach is utterly terrible. Undoubtedly you’re copy pasting the shot from a movie you saw.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well I never watch wedding videos so I cannot comment on that. I didn't say that circular motion does not create emotion on it's own. I thought it would be the best choice for this shot in this scene, in this particular context.

But I was told before to come up with my own shots, and don't do what other movies do. So when I do that now, and try to come up with my own, I am told now it's too different. So should I come up with my own shots then, or not?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

A camera motion to support anxiety or a feeling of being trapped would be a push in cu to the subject face, not a circular motion of the other actors. A circular motion could be used in the scene but its purpose wouldn’t be for what you suggested and wouldn’t be essential. Wide high shot of them surrounding him, followed by the cu push in to reveal his emotion would be the simplest and most direct way.

This has more to do with using shots that are right to support the purpose of the scene. Trying to be original or trying to copy other movies are examples of doing something for the wrong reasons.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I wanted to do a close up of the character, while the camera was moving around him as you saw his eyes and face, to give the feeling of justice closing in around him and that he is surrounded by a trap.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You’ve already shown us the scene from the movie you want to copy it from and we’ve already explained its not a gimbal shot. Plan shots you can do don’t try to copy what you can’t do.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well it was said before to get a dolly, so I will just do that then. What about a shot like following the actors down a hallway. Would that be a dolly shot or gimbal shot?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

we are talking about this scene this shot and you were telling us how you want to use a gimbal instead of a dolly. You should know when to use a gimbal. It sounds like your head is crowded with movies you’ve seen and things you’ve been told. Clear all that out and film with purpose.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, that's what I am trying to do. Every shot I am coming up with I am not using any past movies as influence now. I thought maybe I could do gimbal moves only, since I know a gimbal operator, but if some of these moves really need a dolly, then I can get a dolly.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Hooray!!! you got it.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The most obvious part that grabs attention is the ears, not the face. Justice may be closing in, but he appears to be using his hearing to judge the timing of his next move. As I mentioned, more Jason Bourne than anxiety..

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh what makes you think he is using his hearing more?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Because of the information your shot is providing. You don't normally start and end a shot featuring the ears, so they must be significant.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well I didn't mean to imply that I was starting and ending on the ear.

I wanted to start off with a close up of the front of his face. Not a profile shot but a frontal shot of his face, as she sees the officers swarm around him and then he turns around to look at them swarm from around him. As he turns around the camera turns with him, and it ends with the camera on the front of his face, because the camera turns around with him.

So it begins and ends with the front of his face, and not his ears at all. And this happens while intercutting with shots of the police officers swarming in of course.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

That's rather different to your initial description of the shot and your example.

You probably shouldn't be using the forum to go through your film on a shot by shot basis. I suspect it's not what it's intended for, it's more for providing possible solutions and advice than micromanaging a film.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I was just trying to ask what would be best for some shots lens and movement wise, rather than every shot of course. I didn't mean to try to mis-describe, the shot, but does it sound better now, now that the camera will be on the person's front of the face, the entire time as he turns, or no?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It's better if you wish to reveal their feelings, other than that it's impossible to say, since there are a number of ways to do the same scene. The choice is entirely yours.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Exactly. I get exhausted after a few of his posts.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Back on Page 1 I thought "hmmmm... star filters? That's a really interesting topic! I'd be up for that discussion, let's have a look. Oh hang on, how did they managed to talk about just star filters for SEVENTY TWO PAGES????"

After skimming over half a dozen random random pages throughout this thread I now understand "how"

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The thing about these threads is you can't unsee them. Welcome to the rest of your life. It will never be the same. YOU will never be the same.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Ryan hasn't posted for a week now. It's getting awfully quiet around here.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Its like a low grade form of Stockholm syndrome...what you once fought against you now miss when its gone.