Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You're over thinking this, insiders get into places that the public can't. The judge may know the cop from a previous case, who knows. If the audience start thinking that you've got problems with your script, not with him being there.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. Do you think maybe I overthink a lot of things, as it was pointed out before that I am overthinking things sometimes?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You're overthinking the wrong things.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I can try to work on that. Am I doing something particular that I mistaken the wrong things for right maybe?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Look, dude, all this stuff you obsess over with judges and public hearings and minor details like that...if I were watching not only would I not call you out on it, I wouldnt even think about it. I assume much of the viewing public would feel the same.

You know much legal stuff is inaccurate in courtroom scenes in every movie and tv show? How much police procedure is wrong in most CSI shows and police procedurals? A LOT.

Yeah, cops and lawyers are gonna know youre wrong. Guess what? Most people arent cops and lawyers.

A good litmus test for whether something needs overthinking is whether the GENERAL PUBLIC will know when its wrong.

You can have a gunshot blow people across the room cause it “seems” right even though (I think, I dont know crap about guns) its totally unrealistic. But if you show a gun shooting out beef tacos instead of bullets, thats gonna raise some eyebrows cause everyone knows guns dont shoot beef tacos.


Since your next questions is “okay thanks, but how do I know what the general public will know about?”, that comes down to common sense and if you cant reason that out on your own I dont think I can help you. A good hint is that if someone does not do a job or participate in activity, they are not going to know the deep details about those things. So if most people are not X or dont do X, they arent going to know the details of what X entails.

Thats why they still get away with scenes of people “enhancing” grainy low res footage til you can count a perps nose hairs, when anyone who uses photoshop knows its impossible...CAUSE MOST FOLKS DONT USE PHOTOSHOP.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, it's just that when I show my work before, other people spot all these little details and it may be a problem that I don't even think about before.

So I thought maybe I was therefore, under-analyzing, rather than over.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

What Josh said times a million. No one cares about these rules and legal stuff you obsess over. Your protagonist can do whatever is in his character. You have a habit of painting yourself into a corner.

Time travel isn’t possible now i’ve ruined your Time Wine movie. No I haven’t no cares that time travel isn’t possible!

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

When you look or listen to something you decide extremely quickly of you like it or you don't. Even if you hate it, there's hope it gets better. At some point, disappointment sets in. Did you really pay to see this rubbish, or even you get cross at the time you wasted, hoping it was going to get better, but it didn't.

It's at this point when you start to analyse the product, whatever it is, and you start to pick holes. In a good movie, or a good recording of music you pay little attention to defects, because they don't really matter. For a long time, I've been interested in communications and it's my pet hate in movies. In the Die Hard movie I mentioned yesterday they have magic radios - ones that only talk to the bad guys when that is important, but can talk to the good guys privately too. Then they can switch between the two. For people that know, they're also the wrong radios for the people using them. That's not important because they move the story on nicely. If, however, the movie had been bad - I'd be using these technical failures very negatively, complaining how inept the producers were to not check these things and sort them. Everyone has a pet subject and spot these kinds of errors.

Police Officers watch movies. They watch P{police TV dramas. They only pick on procedural errors when the programme/movie is bad.

Make a good movie and you suspend disbelief. Make a poor one and everyone will put clips of these bad bits on youtube.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If people are spotting details they're not being sweep up and involved with the story and the characters. Lots of films have things in them that if you thought twice about them you wouldn't believe what's happening on screen, yet they grab the audience.

You seem concerned more about if the cop should be at the hearing, rather than his need to attend the hearing, so far you've given a plot reason for him to be there. However, in story terms that's not good enough, it has to be either good or bad for him in achieving his need to be there.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, yeah he has a good reason to be there, it's more about the judges motivation, and why the judge would let him be there, since the judge has no real reason. So I thought it viewers may look to the judge's motivation.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

They won't. Won't think about it, won't care, probably furthest thing from their minds unless you have made the most unbelievably boring movie ever. Right up with there with noticing an extra's tie isn't straight. Does that help?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks. Well as for not showing an establishing shot, in order to not have to fill the courtroom with other people, I guess the reason I am afraid to do that, in the past, if I try to take shortcuts in budget, like not showing establishing shots, people said they found it jarring though. On here for example, when I posted the short film with the time travel, and I didn't show more establishing shots, I was told it was jarring, so I am feeling risky on doing that therefore.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I havent seen the whole film so I dont know what scene or timecode youre referring to but someone needs to tell you WHY/in what way it was jarring to not show am establishing shot. There are countless movies and shows that cut to new scenes without an establishing shot that no one found jarring so you need to know what specifically is wrong with that in your film

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well two sections of the film where I was told it was jarring cause I didn't have establishing shots are at 4:07 and at 8:42:


I was just told I didn't show an establshing shot of the new location at 4:07 and I didn't show an establishing shot of the reporter at 8:42, when I needed to, if that's true.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay, the issue at 4:02 is probably that it's unclear at first that she's watching that other car from a distance...the viewer doesn't put the two things together as related for a few moments. There any number of approaches but it would have been better to see an over the shoulder or similar where she and the car window frame/windshield are blurry in the foreground and we see the other car through her windshield or driver's side window (geography of where the two are in relation to each other is unclear). Or the red car passing by her white car, with her clearly visible looking out through windshield/window. Again, issue is that there's no single shot that ties the two people together. It doesn't have to be an "establishing shot" in the traditional sense of a wide that shows the whole scene, but some kinda shot that shows them together for a moment is probably required.

at 8:42 it's almost the same issue...you see them looking at...something, and then cut newscast full frame. We'd expect to see an OTS shot of them looking at the screen (screen in focus, them blurry in foreground), with the newscast playing, or at the very least a CU of the computer screen with some of the office background visible around it, newscast playing. THEN cut to newscast full frame. This one's not quite as confusing as the other example but still weird as described above.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I wish you'd explain better - why quote random times that are wrong!

The girl walks out of the building, then we see a car, then her in a car - is that a close up of her? No - it's somebody we cannot see driving out of a car park. Then we see her start the car, next is a shot of a car following the first car with unknown driver. We didn't see her pull out and follow, we don't know who the driver is. Just bad editing - it hinders understanding not enhances it.

At the end, we see two people in an office, she moves and watches TV, we then cut to the TV interview. What establishing shot are you talking about? The more I watch the clip, the more strange and random some shots and edits become. If we submitted this for marking, where each shot was considered with relationship to the one before and afterwards, it's going to score badly. Then we'd look at the plot, the acting, the framing, the lighting, the camera control and it's very much a student movie from the first year standard work.

Realistically - so many compromises and shots that should have been shot again, a story that has so many holes it leaks like a seive. Locations and events that make no sense. Worse though is the acting. Do real people behave like this in real life. In America, even with access to guns, do reporters/investigative people really pull guns out and point them like this?

There's no point commenting on this - you are worrying about establishing shots, when the entire thing is totally confusing and leaves the viewer in a kind of limbo.

Are we really to believe somebody invents time travel, and uses it to age wine, rather than playing the stock market to make bazillions in dollars, then you would never have to age a few bottles of wine.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. I edited it before that you see her pull out and drive after him, and then I posted it on another site for test viewers. But test viewers told me that I overmake the point and I should just show her start the car and then cut, so I did it that way, according to the test viewers online. This is good to know though, that perhaps the original edit of that was better.

Also, why do I need an OTS shot of a person looking through a windshied, or an OTS shot of a person looking at the screen. There are other movies where a person will look at a screen for example, and you see a close up of the screen. You do not see an OTS shot of them looking. So what do other movies do differently, that you do not need the OTS shot?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I have never broken down anything I shoot into categories for consideration. I stand there and then position things. Over the shoulder shots are news derived, where the real reason was to remove lips to make editing quick and simple. It's rarely a nice shot, so in movies, it just gets jiggled to become a reverse angle, and rarely over the shoulder.

If you give movies to people you don't know, and that includes us, if you ask questions. What weight do you put on the response?

Why are you even asking? If it's because you cannot decide for yourself, then your research will produce complete rubbish, because you have no idea the criteria used in making their opinion to you.

It won't help, but my version of the car follow sequence would have been very different.

Front street shot of the girls car, driver NOT visible.
Internal shot showing her in the car driver's seat.
full frame shot of subject getting into his car.
Girl seeing him get in and starting engine
Subject in a wide angle driving out of parking area onto street.
Frontal shot of girl in follow car moving out to follow

You KNOW who she is waiting for. You see him get in and drive off and you see her following.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Perhaps OTS is not quite the right term then. I mean a shot of whatever it is someone is looking at, with that person partly visible in the foreground in soft focus to show the geographical/physical relationship between the two. So you don't have two shots of things cut together with no clear tie between them.

You asked why those things were jarring, I gave you my specific reasoning. Paul's answer is also right. I'm giving you the simplest fix I can think of rather than reshooting/recutting the whole scene the way Paul suggests. Those two sequences/edits are weird, TO ME, because there is no established geography of where the girl is in relation to the car she's looking at in the first example, and the two people and the video they're watching in the second example.

I'm not going to tear apart the whole thing, just those two, very specific examples of why people probably found them jarring.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

There's no point in giving references to other films, that doesn't matter, the real question you need to ask yourself does it work in my film? Is there enough information being provided to the audience for them to follow what's happening without having to think rather than emote?

When getting feedback, you need to decide if it's valid and if it's correct or partly correct or something else is misleading the person giving the feedback and needs to be changed, It's not a literal process you have to analysis the feedback You even have to do this with executive producers and sometimes you have to ignore some points or just tighten shots by a few frames, because they can .be wrong or a very slight adjustment covers it.

The shot with the other car looks like a wide shot on the street, it doesn't look like it's from a car because we don't know the girl is in a car. At leash showing part of the car in the foreground like part of the steering wheel, top of the dashboard on the foreground looking though the windscreen shows that it's a POV of the girl in the drivers seat.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. How about this Instead of showing an OTS shot, I just cut to a close up of the person looking at the screen, or looking through the windshield? For future projects, would a close up of them looking, serve just as good as an OTS shot?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You can't create a rule, but you could do it as long as you locate her in a car. Shooting a CU of her through the windscreen would work. There's a number of ways to shoot a scene like this, it depends on how you wish to create the impression that she's been waiting for some time (and how long) on this guy to get into his car and drive off.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Posted a long reply but it might confuse Ryan more than help him so never mind.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. The next project I have also has some surveillance type scenes, so I could apply the same rule in the shot list. I am not really feeling OTS shots for establishing shots and would rather use close ups if possible. On the Timewine short film, I didn't have the actors available for the following shots there, but I won't make that mistake with this new project. Thanks.

As for not needing an OTS shot per say, how come the close up shot of the characters watching the computer screen failed to work though, in the Timewine short film?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

My answer would be that you don't know that the full frame newscast is taking place on the computer screen as opposed to, say, somewhere else entirely, or that we've cut to a completely different scene entirely, or someone taped over the end of your movie with a newscast.

A shot of the screen itself mostly filling the frame, with office in the background, video playing, would have made it clearer, even with no actors in the frame.

It's just a weird edit.

Your guy says "Check it out." She walks around, and they look at...something. We don't KNOW they're looking at the screen. We never see them looking at the screen. We never see the back of the monitor in the foreground with them looking at it. We never see the screen with them in the foreground looking at it. We never see a wider shot with monitor on left side of frame and them on the right, looking at it. We never see him hit the keyboard or click the mouse to play the video. We never see the screen playing the video. Those are all things that you could have shown. We see a closeup of them, hear some audio, cut to the newscast full frame. It's just kind of weird.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but since the guy has a computer right in front of him and that she comes over to look at it, can't the audience be smart enough to infer that she is looking at the same computer that is in front of him. Even though you do not see the computer monitor in the same shot, can't the audience be smart enough to figure out that they are looking at a computer screen, since it was in the previous shot?

Actually in the storyboards I had it so the back of the monitor was in the foreground. But the DP said he was not able to frame it in the foreground cause it would lead to a continuity error. So I let the DP frame it that way, to avoid such an error. However, in the future, I can stick to the shot, and tell the DP frame it with the back of the monitor in the foreground anyway, no matter what continuity error it may lead to, if that's more important?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It's kinda clear but you were told it was jarring and it's a weird edit, and no, audiences are not necessarily smart enough to catch that stuff. I made a film with a similar shooting/edit problem, same reaction from several folks. You know the film, they don't. You know filmmaking techniques and language, they don't. "Regular folks" need quite a bit of extra help sometimes.

I just told you like six different ways to make it clearer other than back of monitor in foreground.

I would ask you look at the many many movies or shows where people are watching something on TV or a computer screen that they've just turned on or just started playing and see how THEY handled it. Generally one doesn't just cut from the character viewing the screen to the video itself full frame. There's some kind of transition shot to ease you into it. Or the shots before the full frame are wide enough to make it clearer what's happening. There've got to be a billion examples on youtube.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You seem to be working in a very mechanical way, how you frame a shot can reveal a lot more than she's looking at a computer screen. There',s the subtext of the scene; relationships, the power structures and a number of other elements.

Regarding continuity, you have to think ahead when shooting scenes, although there's an amount of cheating that you can do, changes that don't manage reality, but work on screen.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I was going by the timecodes he mentioned when talking about things that were allegedly jarring due to lack of establishing shots. If there was another issue (besides the many many issues mentioned) then never mind about screens and car windshields.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Sorry, it was aimed at Ryan, not you Josh.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I understand; I'm just wondering I got him obsessed with something wasn't even (newest) issue at hand.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Usually the best idea is to get someone else to edit your film, they can usually spot all the flaws and lost narrative connections better than the director. Plus they don't care of you spent 4 hours getting a shot, if it doesn't work they'll cut it out.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. I just edit my own project save money so far, but want to try to get better at it. It seems that the rougher edits may be better, cause in the final edit, I may cut too much, so I can try not to do that.

Okay thanks. Originally I wanted to do a wider shot where you see them look at the monitor and you see the monitor in the frame with them, as they look at it. But the DP told me it would lead to a continuity flaw and we cannot show them in the monitor in the frame with them therefore he said. But next time I will show the screen, regardless of any continuity errors, if that's more important.

In the film school course I took, they say that the audience is smarter than we think they are, but so far it seems I have to show them more than I things not to be jarring which is fine. Another example in that same short film is the scene at 1:35 where I thought that if I cut that scene, that he audience could still understand the story, and doesn't need to be shown that scene. But then I tested it out, and I was told to put it back in and that it's necessary.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The editor's skill is knowing when to trim frames out. If you're doing this yourself best leave it for a week or two before looking at it, you want tight editing and that can involve using the trim to find that last unwanted frame.

Audiences are smart, but you need to provide them with sufficient information without labouring a point. They're also not mind readers, because you know something you can't always assume that the audience does.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. When you say using the 'trim', are you referring to a specific tool in the program?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

No he means trim, as in cutting frames, then rejoining. That's what the trim tools do, but it's really a process we're talking about - you can trim at the beginning, the end, and you can do the same on the next clip, nibbling away frame by frame to make the cut tighter. When you cut like this, just a frame or two can really change the feel.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh yes I see what you mean. One of my biggest challenges in editing is cutting from location to location. I've been told before that it feels to abrupt. Is there any tricks to ease into one location to another? Others say that if the cut feels to abrupt, to just put a fade over it, but so many movies do not fade from location to location all the time, so is there anything I can do to make it feel more easy?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Try not cutting so fast. Plan how you're going to get from one location to another, characters walk out of frame etc

You could dissolve, but that's currently out of fashion, you can wipe, but it has to fit in with the style of the story.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay. In that short film I did before I was told the location changes are jarring. Could this cut at 3:47 into the video, be jarring:


Should I have let it play out a little longer when trimming?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

There are a number things that don’t feel right about that scene. It’s probably do to a cramped location but I don’t like the framing or shot selection. The lighting/exposure is off between the two angles, makes it feel like it’s not the same scene. The end of the scene, the sequence of him slamming the file cabinet is too short and too close up, that is the jarring part. But you should have recognized this right away. It’s fundamentally doesn’t work and can’t be defended as an artistic choice. I would followed the slamming of the cabinet with a lingering medium shot of him angry and contemplating his next move.