re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well it's just I want to do the shots the best way, in order to bring out those feelings of suspense and all.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

That's all very well, but you don't have the resources for these types of shots, keeping it simple and getting the camera into the correct spot to catch each moment is the best you can do on an extremely low budget feature film.

Doing a camera move with a 75mm lens and an inexperienced crew can eat up time getting good takes.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I just got finished reading today’s posts and I’m thinking to myself was anything resolved or accomplished? Only thing clear to me is Ryan wants to use a gimbal with a telephoto lens and he is seeking out anyone to confirm his desires. Why listen to us? Rent, buy, or borrow a gimbal and try filming it with a telephoto lens. Is it possible? Sure. Can you do it? Who knows!

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Flextrack is quite smooth and avoids bumps at joins, but it is impossible to make a mathematically perfect curve, so the camera travelling on it will experience a certain amount of wandering back and forth in pan which the operator will have to attempt to backpan against. The longer the lens, the more pronounced the effect.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I don't have to do it all on the gimbal. But then I see gimbals used with longer lens, in other things, and I wonder if I was missing something, if others are doing it. I can use a dolly and tracks if that's better, it's just when people say work with what you have, well I haven't got the equipment yet. So I was just wondering what to get in the first place, so I invest in the wrong equipment.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You don't invest, you hire. I've got a store full of one job wonders where items never got used twice. It's nice to have gear, but usually a waste of money.

I have a question - I have never heard the term you use frequently Ryan. Motivated and un-motivated movement. I've tried to work it out, but have failed? What is it? Probably make myself look foolish here, but I don't understand it when you use it?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Yeah I could hire it's just I find myself having to do things on my own, especially for these projects where they want to hire a one man band, but I still want to do the best job possible for myself.

It was a term we often used in the film school course I took, unless I have it wrong. Basically motivated camera movement, is when the camera is moving along with an actor who is moving, and the camera is just tracking the actor... where as unmotivated, the camera is moving but not according to the actors movements, if that makes sense?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

What you can do on your own is mostly limited to what you can carry and the number of journeys you want to make back and forth from the car carrying it. How much you can do visually and with the audio depends on your skills and the time you have available.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Yeah true. I guess for projects where I have crew to help, I can plan out all the shots where I want a gimbal, since I already know I want some, and then when it comes to ones where I need a dolly, I will see if I do at the time, or I could just scrap the dolly shots alltogether and just have the gimbal shots only perhaps.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You seem to be obsessed by Gimbals, it's like comparing apples with oranges. Large productions use the dolly a lot of the time, because you can set up shots easier with the dolly than using the tripod, but that doesn't mean you don't have a tripod in the camera truck.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay well it's just I know for sure I will need a gimbal for a good amount of the shots, but I do not know what I will need for others.

That is why I ask how do you know what types of shots require what types of equipment. Especially since I see gimbals in videos going back and forth and up and down, and thinking, if these are dolly and jib shots, than why are they using a gimbal for them...

But I know for sure I will need the gimbal for some. When you think of a shot in your head though, how do you figure out what piece of equipment is proper to move it with?

Perhaps some will be dolly shots. But when it comes to lenses with a gimbal, how long can the lenses go before it becomes a problem? Can you go up to 35mm for example?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Get some sort of job and use the money to buy a gimbal like the Crane 2. They don’t cost a lot and are very versatile tools for low budget stuff you’re doing. In the process you’ll be able to answer your own questions.

Otherwise we seem to be getting no where, you’re asking the same questions we’ve already answered.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay sure, sorry, there are some variables I wanted to go over. In my research it seems the Moza Air 2 seems like the best one for a lower price, so I might get it later. It's just whenever I buy a new piece of equipment it turns out to have hidden catches in it that I wish I caught before I bought it. Like a lens turning out to be fly-by-wire example, Iike before. So I want to eliminate all hidden catches before buying the equipment, cause then you know what you want.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Moza air is also a good choice. You have to accept it’s just a stepping stone. In a couple years your needs will have changed or you’ll want something better, it will have served its purpose, sell it get something else. Same thing for the lens. You start out with cheaper gear and once your skills and needs warrants it you move on. All gear has flaws or limitations nothing is perfect, treat them as learning opportunities and means to achieve your current goals and projects.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Yeah I guess. My sound gear has lasted a lot longer over the years, than the video gear. So I thought maybe I was doing something wrong when making decision on video gear, compared to audio. But I was thinking I would only buy the gimbal if I was doing the project that I want for it. So if the project is a go, I wanted to know ahead of time what to buy, so it's ready to go, rather than just buying it and figuring out if it's right for the project. But when it comes to deciding whether or not to buy a gimbal how wide does a lens have to be for the gimbal to work well? Can I get away with 35mm?

Or, what if I got the pro-aim tripod dolly along with pro-aim flex track. Has anyone ever used these and know from experience about how well they work?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The choices here are between the (1) Gimbal, (2) Flextrack, (3) do both, or (4) do nothing. Gotta have the “do nothing” in the decision tree.

With regard to #2, the Flextrack, that is an option you are lusting after. I can feel it. However, lets look at the plus and minus aspects:
1. Cost: a lot
2. Storage: will take up a lot of room, and … transport. Need a roomy vehicle.
3. Ease of use: Not.
4. Time to set up: Takes a lot of time
5. Shots were it can be used in a cost-effective manner: limited
6. Maintenance: it will get dirty so need to clean before transporting or storing in the house/garage.
7. Labor: requires another operator

Option #1
1. Cost: the least expensive
2. Storage: no problem
3. Ease of use: Powered gimbal is quite easy
4. Time to set up: minimal
5. Shots where it can be used: Lots
6. Maintenance: have to charge batteries
7. Labor: One-man show

Option #3
1. Cost: The gimbal will pay for the Flextrack

Option #4
1. Cost: a lot because you didn’t get the gigs you could have because you didn’t get the gimbal
2. Storage: no problem because without the gigs you can’t buy more kit

Can’t take it anymore … you need to be the go-to guy for video in Saskatoon so go order the gimbal. Nothing is perfect and it won’t be a deal-breaker even though it might not be able to do everything you want. Not to worry, it will do a lot. It is money well spent and you won’t regret it. More kit is your friend.

Glad I could help!

Next thread: Lighting

P.S. Note to Charles: I really liked your Steadycam videos! Fantastic!

Edit: Note to Ryan - when is this gig? Order the gimbal now so you can practice with it before the shoot.
Picture of my gimbal with the X3000 and it has an optically stabilized lens. The primary purpose of the gimbal is to maintain a level horizon but it has other useful capabilities. The black & white cable is a flexible audio cable to record audio out to the Tascam DR44WL recorder. The gimbal, cam, and recorder can be controlled by an iPhone via apps.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks, good point you made about dirt. I only used a dolly and track once. Not a flex track, a flat one, but I found that the dolly vibrated on the track a lot. I think it was cause of the ground underneath, which was a parking lot ground.

I can get the gimbal sooner and practice with it. One of the gigs is the martial arts one, which I may use a gimbal on, depending. The other is a horror thriller, where I can think of gimbal shots I would want, during the suspense and action scenes more.

For option 3, when you say the gimbal will pay for the flex track, are you saying getting a gimbal, gets you more gigs, if you have one? And I could get the gimbal, I just wonder if maybe for future projects after this martial arts one, maybe I should stick to directing and have a separate gimbal operator perhaps.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Regarding the track, it sounds like you didn't use the wedges etc to level the metal track and ensure that it all was in direct contact with the ground. A parking lot surface probably isn't level, so may have small variations, which will cause the track to flex slightly. as the dolly is pushed over it.

Regarding dollys, one of the best paying pieces of kit I bought was a Doorway Dolly, With pneumatic wheels it's surprisingly good over a range of surfaces, if needed, track and track wheels could be hired in, which was done for a number of shorts. However, you do need another person to operate, so you're into another ball game than one man crewing.

It also was also handy for moving kit and lights into and around the location (handy in large supermarkets).

You can hire in dolly on a project by project basis. If you;re doing dramas, gimbals and dollys are apples and oranges, so it's a matter of selecting which is appropriate for each shot.

A gimbal on it's own won't get you gigs, it's the other aspects of you as a film maker that gets you gigs, that may be because you're very cheap or it may because you;re a people person or you've got a good sales patter or you've got all the connections or you're an extremely good at making the type of videos that are in demand in your area.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I read this, turned to the pile of gear that travelled with me to Belfast and discovered in one box is a gimbal. Been used just once since I bought it 2 years ago. The tripod is old, battered and the most useful piece of camera gear I own. I have two more tripods at home - one shorter, one longer, a jib and a pedestal. All those bought for specific projects. The most pointless and money wasting were the jib - bought in I think 1980 for a lot of money, and the pedestal - bought new in 2004 for around two and a half grand with the head. Jib is perhaps maybe ten projects in total, the pedestal three. The Vinten tripod in that tube has too many to even guess. I suspect that in 15 years the purchase cost of the jib is not yet covered and same with the ped. I should have hired. What we do is supposed to make money, yet I've wasted loads. This has been a long job, so I brought everything I knew I'd use - the gimbal was in one of the boxes, but no use to me here.

I'm really surprised by your problems with dolly work. I've no idea what you were doing, but even with poorly supported track, smoothness is rarely a problem, just that the camera heigh and horizontals shift. I'm always the kind of person who despite having longer zooms, usually moves closer. We're opposites here. I prefer the look of wider angles. The idea of going further away and going narrower creates more problems than it solves. Moving closer and wider minimises camera movement errors. Some of the bigger hand held gimbals can manage longer lenses and heavier payloads but often, the operator can't. The movements you get are not gimbal issues but the person holding the gimbal who cannot keep the thing at a constant height. I think you believe they are a godsend device, able to get you out of trouble, but they're just a tool - and often an ineffective one. They're cheap enough to buy. Are they the correct tool? I don't know. I just got mine out and tried it. Clearly the lack of use means I have to practice a great deal to get good results. I think you possibly flit from gizmo to gizmo with no time spent mastering anything before moving on. Maybe some time getting familiar with a really good tripod and head, possibly second hand if you MUST buy kit, would help. You could always use this on a base and track, or a rolling skid, or other conjured up devices. I KNOW I can't even think of steadicams because I've got a dodgy back. I'd love to think I could do it well, but I'm old enough to know when it's best to simplified the right person to do it for me. I'm not paying for gear hire, I'm paying for a solution. So many ways to get shots nowadays, so if it means hiring in a large jib so be it. Separate vision from the desire to be a one man band.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

In previous threads Ryan has also received detailed equipment recommendations but he never buys anything because he doesn’t have the money or is unsure if it’s the right choice. There never seems to be any sort of resolution.

I only suggested the gimbal because it’s relatively inexpensive and an easy way to create motion if you have no other option.

While I agree specialized equipment can often sit and doesn’t get you work I just don’t see a point of endlessly playing what if with Ryan. If he ever got a gimbal, I could see him having problems operating it or complaining about the quality of motion or it’s inability to do what he wants.

As far as this karate movie/scene. If it’s another one of these no budget non paying projects then buying any sort of gear isn’t necessary unless you want to learn how to use it for future projects. Most likely all of this talk won’t lead any where.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Sadly, Pete, I think you're right.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. It's not that I can't afford equipment. Some of it I can that was recommended. It's just I would rather direct and have someone else operate a gimbal, so I can concentrate on directing, so I wonder if it's still worth it to get one then.

But if I did, it would be for future projects as well. As for whether or not I have been satisfied with the gimbal, I was quite satisfied with it on the short I posted before, Battle Damaged Souls, but then people on here said that the gimbal wasn't level enough and I need another tool like a dolly, if I want to do those kinds of shots in future projects. So that is why I was asking about other options.

As for longer lenses being shaky, being the operator's doing and not the gimbal's, I thought it was the gimbal's, since I kept being told don't use longer lenses on a gimbal.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I suspect what people are saying is that gimbal would be worth considering if you're doing one man band productions in the future.

Some of the shots in the short had "vibrations" how acceptable that is depends on the look you're going for.

I recall earlier in the thread that the quality with longer lenses will be dependent on both the skill of the operator and the quality of the gimbal. If you wish to use longer focal length lenses, run tests with the operator over ground similar to that you're going to film on, so you can see if it's going to work. You may find it works in certain situations, while not in others.

Any decisions in this regard is entirely yours, there's information on various options in the thread.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks. So it's not that I should be using other equipment like a dolly per say, it's just I need to work on smoothing out the vibrations with a gimbal operator in the future then perhaps?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You may need to use other equipment, it depends if you need to pan or tilt the camera during a shot and a number of other factors. You need to check with the operator to see what they can do with their equipment (some have joy stick controls).

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but I thought the gimbal could do pans and tilts, or at least it could when I practiced with one before.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You need to check that they can do the type of camera moves, with the precision that you need. Most gimbal shots I've seen are pretty simple affairs, so you need to check how far you can push the envelop.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, well so far if I were to get my own, or even have another person operate it, it seems in my research that the Moza Air 2 has the most bells and whistles for it's price, and seems to be able to do the most moves, if that's true.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Just because it's got features, doesn't mean that it's good for what you want to do and it works with longer lenses. You need to test.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

well it's not available to rent at the local stores. It seems I might have to buy it but is there a way to practice with it to test before you buy it?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The wild card here is
Wondered why Ryan is spending so much time indoors on the computer and a check of the weather may be an indication. While you guys in the UK are getting the benefits of the Gulf Stream ol’ Ryan is getting hit with the Arctic “stream”. While our news guys here are reporting about all “the poor people” in the north east being hit by the cold we don’t hear about our Canadian blokes complaining.

The temperatures shown are in ºC. Note that the Manual for the AX700 shows an operating temperature range of 0ºC > 40ºC (Disclaimer: your cam’s temperature range may be different).

The nice thing about owning your own kit is it’s ready to go, you know how it works, no need to go to a rental place (if one even exists in the local area). It’s not money wasted, its money saved by not wasting time going after or renting kit.

Ryan: The clock is ticking! If the decision isn’t made pretty soon there won’t be any time to practice and the shoot will have to be handheld. (when is is supposed to be?). “Time is money and time is a wasting.” At this rate it may be Option #4.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay, still deciding on if I should get my own as oppose to hiring someone. As for the arctic stream the first shoot of the martial arts video is tonight, and that will be indoors.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

again why not lensrentals or similar? They probably ship anywhere and they have to be competitively priced or no one would use them.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but i searched the moza Air 2 on their site but couldn't find any.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Rental companies will tend to go for the kit in demand from professionals. A Ronin is probably more likely or they could have another brand.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

gotcha.

Maybe have to find some place with a generous return policy and buy knowing you can return if unsatisfied.

For what its worth one of my clients has (and presumably likes) the ronin s.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, well I already tried the Ronin before, but thought I'd try the Moza Air 2 if it looks like that's the best one from some reviews.

But is the Ronin more professional then in performance?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Moza 2 costs $489, you can get it for around $300 on ebay but if you don't go through a local retailer and you have a problem... LensRental offers the DJI Ronin S for 7 days for $60 with shipping and tax be around $130. I've used the Ronin S it's on the heavy side but is high quality, smooth motion, and powerful motors. I'd buy the gimbal if you plan to use it more than 3 times. I generally prefer to own, like someone said better to know your equipment and use it whenever you want...

In my experience the downside of gimbals is they add a layer of difficulty. You're going to need to plan and practice the start and stop point. During that motion if there is any defect you need to redo do it. Whether that be the camera going out of focus, horizon off, vibration, vertical motion from walking, maintaining the framing... These things are heavy to hold for anything longer than a few minutes.

I can't see why you can't use a gimbal and still direct. Most of us here have done solo work. In some ways its easier, you simply shoot it the way you want. You don't need to communicate it to someone else.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay. When I used the Ronin before, I found that if I wanted to pan and tilt, that I had to use a cellphone app to do that but there was delays, when it came to communication between the Ronin and a phone. So I had problems with delays in timing the moves.

The Moza Air 2 has all it's controls on the device itself, or so I've been told, so I thought therefore, there would more likely be less delay in response time.

As for a camera going out of focus, a good focus puller, who uses a follow focus can help with that too though, right? Or when I watch some movies that have these sorts of camera moves, if they move from one actor to another, it seems they have a deep depth of field if need be as well, and are not pulling focus therefore.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It may depend on which model you used, the Ronin S seems to use more sophisticated controls than a mobile phone. https://store.dji.com/product/ronin-s?vid=43801