re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, so you think I should not have any cuts then and maybe have the entire thing in one shot? I do actually have one take of the entire thing, it's I felt that certain parts of other takes were better so I wanted to borrow from all three takes, rather than use just one. But is it better to use just one of the entire thing?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You can do that if you've got closer shots of the actions that can be put between the selected parts of each take. However, they need to be fairly consistent in their moves and positioning, depending how much you can see of these actions in the wider shots.

Since you're planning to direct a feature film with action scenes, you should know all this stuff.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, well I find this to be very different than directing a feature with action scenes, cause for the feature, you are setting up the shots for emotion, where as here, you they are being done out of fighting move techniques specifically, rather than emotion, if that makes sense. In a feature I don't need to see everything about the fighting moves, I want to see the emotion. So I feel it's a whole new ball game for me, compared to the action scene of a movie.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The emotion is the difficult part, this is just the mechanics of a stunt.

Be careful, you may be misjudging the emotion that you're creating,

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. But I feel that story narrative action is easier for me to decide on that martial arts promotional video action. I think it's because I have thought about fictional narrative more probably.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is mostly illustrative, so it's a matter of getting the participants delivering their lines in a natural manner, that's usually the difficult part o these videos, All the rest should be relatively easy.

Download the selected take onto a laptop and use that as a reference video player., so that the continuity can be matched for the action shots. You can use the angle that makes it look at it's best, if you wish. slow the move down in post and use some of the lines as VO.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay. I was thinking of slowing the move down in post for VO before though. However, my camera only shoots at 30 frames per second which sucks for slow motion. Should I use try using twixtor maybe then?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Use whatever works for you.

Straight slowing down 30 fps in post is the same as step printing in film. it has a look of its own, which been used in a number of films.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I wouldn't do slow motion. It feels like you just can't help yourself from meddling with these sorts of things.

Honestly you should be using these jobs to work on your directing. Not to get you off on tangents there are many aspects of this project you could have used your energies on. Like scripting a fun snappy intro. A lot of the better Youtube videos have a format, style, branding leaves you with an impression that its professional production. From what we have seen so far this is an uninspired video where you show up to a room with your camera and press record. If they came to you and said we want you to come up with a plan to create a great promo video for our business tell us what to do.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh I only mentioned slow motion cause it was suggested on here that I slow the movements down if he talks about the possibly. Unless I read that wrong?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Slow motion should only be a snappy sting thing, not a Sam Peckinpah job, however, it wouldn't work with the video that you have at the moment, which needs working on style.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay. Well the instructor says he wants to narrate a lot of it with voice over, rather than talk and having do the moves, especially in a location with problematic sound.

So if he does that, I am afraid of perhaps the moves being too quick. So I could slow them down if he needs more time to explain them or I could just free frame them on certain beats that he is talking about, if that's good.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Are you making a promo video or an instructional video? It sounds like you're doing the latter.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I am doing what they are asking me to do. He wants to narrate the moves to show off his knowledge and what he can offer, and that is what he wants to do. I know I get to pick the shots and how many takes and all, but he still gets to pick the moves and what he wants to talk about, doesn't he?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

From the very beginning this sounded like a moving target project where Ryan is letting a client who doesn’t know what he wants take the lead. First he films him free form sparring, then he shows him the footage and he sees it’s not good, and now he told Ryan to try something else. This is what you get when you’re passive.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well I tried being more aggressive but it wasn't working. I asked him if we can do takes from this many angles, and he said it was too many takes for him to keep track of, for example. He also gave me ideas of what he wants to do next for the video, but should I just reject them and say no?

I guess I am more comfortable being the one making all the decisions, if it's a project where I am the one spending the money and producing. Plus I don't think he sees me as the director but more of a camera operator. But even if he is going to promote himself, doesn't he still have to explain some moves, in order to sell himself on what he is talking about?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

How does the client expect to distribute and promote this video? Is it intended as a piece for YouTube, a local broadcast commercial, late night public access channel, playing in a booth at a trade show, something prospective clients are handed on a DVD when visiting the studio, what? Will the potential viewers see this video BEFORE or AFTER they have first met the instructors in person? If it's intended to be BEFORE, how will they find this particular production among, say, the thousands of martial arts videos on YouTube? What makes it stand out? Is it part of a broader marketing effort that includes other media, public demonstrations, etc.?

These questions make a big difference in deciding what the emphasis in the piece should be, how long it should be, and how it should be packaged with "extras" like graphics, music and B-roll footage.

I realize that what we saw originally is not a finished, edited package. But the whole product kind of feels as though one of the guys said, "Hey, dude, we should make a video," and the other said, "Sure, sounds like fun," without thinking much at all about how, where and why it would be used.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Youtube and facebook page for them, as well as their own website. Yeah I get that same feeling from them so far. I'm not sure how they planned to get noticed more.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is where you have to give the video some structure on paper and agree to it before you start filming. If you don't they will just start changing things as they go along.

These are shots, not takes if it's from different angles, if he can't remember more than a minute or so, break the video down, so that he doesn't need to remember 5 minutes. You are the one who needs to now where everything goes, not him.

I assume this video lasts about 5 minutes at the most. If it's a promo being shorter would be better, viewers sense within the first 30 seconds or a minute at the most if the guy is a good teacher and knows his stuff, the rest just confirms the first impression,

Is this a series of instructional videos? it sounds rather like that's what he wants.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks, he said he would rather do a lot of it in one take though, rather than break it down into sections. Unless that's not good?

It feels like a promo video to me. He describes some of his moves, and then talks about the promo stuff of what he has to offfer in his teachings. At least that is how it reads on paper, with what he wants.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

"He said...." This is where you move into options. "OK - must admit this worries me, but let's try it on one take, and see if it's possible. If it goes wrong, then we'll need to break it into sections, or you're going to get tired, and make more mistakes, and we don't want to do that". You have given them what they want, but they already have a plan B, which of course you need.

I'm concerned that when given the suggestion about being too passive, you made a jump to the word aggressive! This is BAD. In fact, being aggressive is the worst possible working arrangement with a client. You are thinking about the passive/aggressive personality disorder. This is NOT what we are talking about.

Our use of the word passive is where clients ask for things you know will fail, and you offer no resistance and go with it. Stage two is taking this depressed and possibly stressed client and providing support and guidance to make the product and process work. NOT aggression. The trick is usually letting the client think they got their way, when you got yours.

This is a train wreck of a project unless you get control and make it work. I'd start with a very simple set of questions. Who are the audience? What do they want the video to do? How is it best presented? They MUST give you solid answers to these simple questions. If they cannot answer them with immediate, solid and considered responses, then you will never get to the end because they have movable goalposts. Nothing you can do will make them happy. Walk away telling them you don't think you are the best person to do this job, but tell them that if they can decide the direction they want to go, you'd be happy to reconsider once they' decided.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is so ridiculous, we’re wasted so much much time giving Ryan all this advice only to find out he’s not even remotely in charge of this project. I was fooled into thinking someone who is planning to direct a feature film would at least be able to take the clients ideas and come up with a plan how to film it. A guy who went to film school is letting a would be karate instructor have full control of whatever this is.

I shouldn’t get mad at him because I think even though he talks a good game here, in person he doesn’t have ability lead or direct. I’m left with a feeling he suffers from some form of autism. I keep on expecting with more experience he’s going to gain the confidence to take charge but I’m now of the opinion that unfortunately this is good as it gets. I’m not blaming him it’s just pointless for us to give him advice.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I think this is why, unlike so many other posters who appear and vanish, we've stuck with Ryan, hoping that we can guide him.I have a lad who works for me who has Asberger's and he is rather driven like Ryan, and he's always dependable and useful, and I've been gently exploring his limits and while by no means an expert on these things I've done pretty well getting him integrated with the others. Hence why I personally, keep trying with Ryan - but we do seem to go two steps forward, then back three sometimes. From our side, it's infuriating to see many of our suggestions really badly misunderstood, and creating tangents to shoot off into. Ryan'e been plugging away but this one is a very good example of him being asked to do something and being way off the mark because he doesn't understand the clients, and worse, they seem unable to understand anything about making videos. It really makes no sense flogging this dead horse. The two people we see in the video clearly are clueless about their real need for the video and how to make it good.

We just struggle on. The advice we are giving here is simply give up and move on, and Ryan does not do this - but this time, he should.

It's a poor subject, presented by poor talent, shot by poor old Ryan who lost control from shot 1.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If you don't have the ability to lead that's ok, everyone has their limitations, we can't all be Steve Spielberg. There are plenty of positions like camera operator, boom operator, etc that you follow what you're told. Ryan should be satisfied with doing that instead of trying to pursue directing feature films. Can you imagine a 50k budgeted feature film in his hands?

Now that we have a clear picture of what's going on with this project, a clueless client who's winging it and Ryan who's just along for the ride. I don't think there is any advice that would make much of a difference with whatever the end result will be. For a while I thought it was just an instructional style video that we could offer suggestions to improve the next installment. But that's not the case here.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

He's directly said he's on the spectrum before so proceed gently.

As for the stuff about crewing vs directing please see: every other thread.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

There are some directors who are on the spectrum, however, how it affects their ability can't be applied to everyone. Some have been successful because of it giving them a unique world view, but I suspect most will not have that vision which connects with an audience and so will work in other roles in the crew.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

In other threads there are many who suggest it’s a lack of real world experience and he needs to pay his dues work his way up on a professional set to become a director. Treading lightly as I can, if this isn’t a lack of experience thing then that advice is misleading. I’m trying to be helpful as I can to dissuade someone from a bad decision. Much like if I had a friend who was terrible at poker wanted take his life savings to the casino. While you can’t stop someone from trying to do something that they’re not good at, it’s concerning (if it’s true) borrowing a large sum of money to pursue something in my mind is folly.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. Nothing is wrong with the how the treading has been done on here or the advice. Thanks.

I think perhaps maybe I don't know how to proceed cause I don't have a script. I think with certain scripts I would do a much better job in directing, or at least I feel I would. Perhaps a promotional video, is just not my thing as director, which is why I prefer to do fictional narratives, as I feel I would do a lot better there.

As for the directing a feature film, I was told by other filmmakers I worked with that they think I could do it as long as I had a much better DP and much better actors then before, since they said those were the things that were lacking before, and they feel I would do much better with those people to help carry it through, if that's true.

As for me possibly having a unique view, I suppose that's possible, cause I come up with certain ideas and then people think they are strange or at least very unique. But one filmmaker I know said that that's good, cause otherwise I would just be following the trends more and doing what everyone else is doing, if that's true.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If you are to continue with your martial arts client I think you should postpone future shoots untill/unless you work out a treatment/outline/script for this thing. No matter how many meetings or emails it takes. Get a solid plan down that outlines what happens during every single moment of this video.

What youre doing is not really that different than the many corporate projects I work on...training videos, videos about new buildings, etc. Those all have scripts in two column format, almost a paper version of what the final product will look once edited. Paragraph by paragraph, sometimes sentence by sentence, you know exactly what shots will go with what audio (sometimes it just says “b-roll of _____”) and generally whats happening at every moment. You time out yourself or them reading each line so you know you have 2.7 seconds you need to cover for this sentence, etc.

I think you need something like that for this project, so everyone’s on the same page. If they wont agree to that, cause “its not in the spirit of Krav Maga” or whatever, I’d say walk away. Sometimes you have to train your clients on how to be good clients. They should be willing to put in the work.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks well we have a more specific outline of scenes now and the order they are in. Three of them scenes are training moves, and the fourth is a sit down interview type scene where he talks about his place, and what he has to offer, but this scene will book end the other three. At least that is what we have so far.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

At this point, with these people, I would take it even farther and do something that's down to the moment by moment details of the videos, since these folks seem to need all the guidance in the world. Something like this. You'd figure out the best shot for each bit of narration etc., then shoot with the script in mind, so you know exactly what you do and don't need.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Josh, that just won't work for Ryan. Nowhere in your sample script does it mention star filters. :-)

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I'm sure they were on another page somewhere.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well I came up with a shot list but it didn't work for the next shoot cause their movements it turns out were completely different than what I had in my head, so I couldn't move the camera the way I thought it had to be moved.

Here is another issue. It was said before, not to shoot perpendicularly. However, if I don't, then the actors will go out of focus if they are not fighting on an angle that is not perpendicular. And I can't pull focus since the moves they are doing are unpredictable. Even if we talk about it beforehand, it comes out completely different than how I envision it.

And it's hard to rehearse cause they really don't like doing several takes. They even looked at the footage as I played it back and said it was good and were finished for the day, even though I didn't think it was good.

Is this why for example Boxing is shot at a perpendicular angle often, cause they can't predict where they are going to go and they don't want to loose focus?

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Keeping focus is a skill that camera operators on these types of productions need, however, it can only be learnt with practice.. Having peaking in the viewfinder assists with this and a good tripod allows you to smoothly follow the action.

Follow the action that's happening before you, not what you think it's going to be, read their bodies so you can sense which way they're going. If you can't follow it, you may be too tight, so loosen off the shot.

Stopping down will give you a greater depth of field.

I'm not sure what you mean by perpendicular, from what you're saying the moves have to be in the plane of focus, which may or may not be perpendicular, depending on how you set up the camera.

The shot list just needs to very general, on things like this the action will be different, so you need to think on your feet.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks, it's just hard to cause the are not hitting the same marks every time, which they are not use to of course.

By perpendicular I mean how it was said before that the angle I chose was boring cause it goes from left to right, and they are on an even plain if that makes sense?

But if I do it that way, they don't go out of focus, cause they are the same distance from the camera the whole time. If I shoot on a non-perpendicular angle, than they go further away from the camera, as they fight, or closer, which makes focus pulling harder.

I can only deepen the DOF so much though before it's too dark. Plus I was told before to put the background more of focus if possible, but I can open it up sharp if that's better for a deeper DOF. I think the problem is for me, is that the fighting is changing so much and I really need more rehearsal with them and more planning with them, but it's been tough to get. I think it's because before, they are use to shooting on their phones, with past videos and on their phones, everything is in focus, so not as much planning is needed. So maybe I just need to think like that, and increase the gain quite a bit higher, and just shoot with a deeper DOF, hoping that will work, but then gain and noise is raised higher though.

If I had access to the location more I could light this place better, and rehearse just the camera settings and lighting, but I only have access to it when they want to shoot though. But maybe I should just raise the gain to 1600 and not lower it and treat it like cellphone shooting with a much deeper DOF, if that's better.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You could just get a more camcordery type cam with a smaller sensor/deep DOF for shoots of this nature, where “artistry” is a low priority. Youre used to DSLRs but a fixed lens small ENG cam would probably be better. More versatile zoom range, XLR inputs, and deep focus. It doenst have to be new unless you need 4k (hint: you probably dont). Anything HD with manual controls and XLR inputs would probably work. We STILL use the Sony EX1 for some jobs and that cam came out in 2008! Could probably be had for very cheap. Go a tier down AND old and you could probably get something for next to nothing. Used, obviously. DSLRs are not great for everything.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I could. But I might just have to work with what I have now, as I don't have time to shop for anything new I don't think at the moment, depending on price. One person I know has a camcorder but not sure if it's HD. I can check. Thanks.

I thought maybe it's me and I can try planning better but the moves are not turning out like I had envisioned from the conversations, in terms of predicting movement.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

This is that part everyone keeps harping on about how you have to learn how to think on your feet on these kinds of shoots, with these kind of clients (the type who are somewhat difficult and don't want collaborate with the videographer). They're still giving you only 90 minutes per day to set up and record all this? I've seen this stuff take hours, between figuring out where the talent has to be at each point and where the cam needs to be too catch them, and multiple takes.

You should do a deep think and really ask yourself if you're cut out for this type of work (thinking on your feet/not being able to plan/tough clients), and if not, bow out/walk away. Not everyone is. Just cause you can work on movies with actors who know they're in for a long day and live to be told what to do, where you can at least partially plan every detail, doesn't mean you're suited to all forms of video production.

re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Ryan when we give you suggestions you seem to panic and put yourself in a box. There are a number of modifications you could do if you're having focus problem. Shooting 6-10ft away from the subject, using a wide angle lens, and setting the aperture to 5.6 should give you ample dof to work with. If you're still having problems you can reduce the angle of view to maybe just 15-20 degrees. It's true that camcorder eng style cameras are better suited to this work with their smaller sensors that have a larger dof. I still think that an apc size dslr should still be able to handle this job if used properly.