Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

In this case you haven't come with a good reason for using this technique. To work it really needs to let run, it's not an easy solution, multiscreen is something that needs to be carefully thought out, with some flair in it's use, otherwise it becomes distracting.

It has been used the same way you're talking about, but I doubt your film has the style to pull it off

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, so you mean let it run for a longer amount of time? When you say the style to pull it off, what style are you referring to?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If you don't know that yourself, no one can give you an answer, it comes from within the director and them having a strong personal vision that drives the film as a whole. Currently, this sounds like a scene bolted onto a bog standard daytime TV cop drama.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

#635
#640
huh?

When I read your posts it’s like pinball game of random ideas.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, well I know the style I want, so I feel it would fit into that style, and just going by what I am interpreting. Well what I ask the question how long does it have to play out for to be effective, would you say? When you say it sounds like the style of a TV cop drama, which TV cop drama were you thinking of? Plus it was never said why it wouldn't work for mine, other than it's probably not shown long enough, and that the film does not have the style to pull it likely. Those aren't very specific reasons though.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You keep asking questions that no one here can answer. You seem to want precise details to things that should be thought out by you on long walks or where ever you keep running this stuff through your mind, keep rewriting these scenes.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

A split screen will give him the chance to use two different star filters at the same time! Woo-hoo!

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Just checking in and the drama continues. Heck of a lot more interesting than what the news media has to offer.

Pete - you did good, my man!
Disclaimer: Have to say I'm no advocate of split-screen so here's my take.

Don’t need no split screen if one writes the score [Edit: script] right.
Take a cue from the Big Bopper and his rendition of Chantilly Lace when there is only one person talking but we know what the conversation is about.

This script writer … er, lyricist, was able to write a conversation in such a manner that we know what was said (Edit: communicated) even though we only know only one side of it. Not only that, the lyricist did it in such a manner so it would fit the measures and stanzas in a song. Not given the constraint of musical requirements surely one can come up with a one-sided conversation where the viewer understands what was communicated.

The Big Bopper had a one-sided conversation in his popular song: "Chantilly Lace"

Hello Baby
Yeah, this is the Bib Bopper speakin
Do I what?
Will I what?
Oh baby, you know what I like!
What’s that, baby?
Pick you up at 8 and don’t be late
But baby, I ain’t got no money, honey
Oh, alright, honey, you know what I like

Perry Mason had one-sided phone conversations in his famous long-running detective programs.

One does not necessarily require both people to be viewed in a split-screen to know what the conversation is about. Basically, a two-way conversation can be understood even if we only hear one side.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I just thought it would be fun to watch two characters in a cat and mouse game come to merge in timing on a split screen, when I thought about how this would play out.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Fun and thriller don't really go together, you can't put things in for fun, even in a comedy. There has to be a driving 2+2=5 reason for doing so.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Well maybe fun is the wrong word, but I have lots of fun watching thrillers, so if thrillers are fun for me, can they be fun for others? My reason for doing so, is that the audience is going to wonder if the cop is going to in there in time, before they destroy all the evidence and escape out the back yard, which the cop cannot legally go into as of yet. So that is the reason why I wanted to show both simultaneously to see both timings converge.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Have you checked if this is correct? Following in hot pursuit is usually different to doing a search after the event and getting back up is to ensure that they don't escape out the back and having safety in numbers.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well I talked with a cop and went through the scene, and wrote it to his specifications so I thought it was all good based on what he said.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Sometimes bending the rules works better dramatically, it shows if they're someone who follows the rules or will push them as far as possible. The latter is not unusual in dramas.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

1. You are always taking directions from people who have no filmmaking knowledge. “He told me...” or “I was told...”. You’re the writer/director, you should be the one deciding how to tell your story.

2. 99% of all movies both people are not shown at the same time and it seems to work. Either we hear the conversation and observe the effect it has on the receiving party or we can’t hear what being said, which invites the audience to speculate what’s being said. You seem to have a habit of trying to show and tell everything which eliminates any intrigue.

3. Split screen is often distracting and confusing. We don’t experience the world this way. You haven’t given any compelling reason to use it other than it’s just another cinematic device you want to throw in.

At every opportunity you are trying to insert unusual cinematic devices that call attention to themselves. You’re more concerned trying to show off how unique you are than simply telling a story well. This heavy handed approach is what one would expect from a film student.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. To address those points:

1. I thought I should do police research when writing unless I should not then...

2. How was I shown everything exactly? The conversation is only being heard through the cop's radio. You do not see the other people. So how was I therefore, showing too much?

3. Even though people do not experience the world that way, it's a movie. Does a movie have to be portrayed exactly how people experience the world? I didn't intend to show off, I was just trying to find the best way to tell that section of the story. I don't have to do it, but it just seems strange, cause I didn't think I was breaking any cinematic rules by doing so.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

That is NOT what was said Ryan - you really must get the hang of reading what people say.

You do research - but you seem to lack a filter - taking in information and analysing what it tells you.

Of course a real police input is handy - but you are not making a documentary. It's drama. Many movies take on consultants from specific industries that will feature, and they often get really angry because their viewpoints are often ignored. You make a movie about special forces, so you talk to special forces people - then go off and make a movie and dropping all the boring stuff and focussing on the shoot up at the end.

You take everything as black or white - never any grey, and this is throttling you.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Writers research the world they're creating, why would you even think for a second they wouldn't?

Know your world is one of the tenets of writing.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, I can see that. I guess the reason why I may be more black and white is because the audience feedback seems to me. The audience feels that either something is right or wrong, with no grey area it seems, so maybe that's why I see things black and white more.

I did actually did write think about writing it, that maybe the cop decides to go in without having the most probable cause cause he felt people may be in danger, but I was told that if he did that he would be fired, and no one is going to believe he would risk his job like that, and not be be fired after, so I wrote it so he doesn't. But I can change it back then.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I must have missed where you laid out how you are using split screen...something about a police conversation over the radio. But that's not really important, all I do know split screen is almost never used. I'm sure you could dig up two or three outliers out of the ten of thousands of movies but what would be the point? Split screen isn't necessary but this is a recurring thing with you trying break convention when you haven't even make one successful feature film. Its pointless arguing with you because once you get something in your head it's impossible to dissuade you. Is it possible to use split screen? Yes. Is in necessary or appropriate? Most likely not.

Doing research is fine, but movies almost never follow what happens in real life, especially when it comes to action-crime genre. The general audience does not know or care about real police procedure.

It's amazing that out of all the countless approaches to telling a story you latch on to one that everyone here can agree that is bad. This coming from a group of individuals who rarely agree on anything.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks, that's true I don't have to follow proper procedure. However, the audience is aware of the 4th amendment and a search and arrest not holding up, if the amendment is broken, aren't they? Will an audience accept a world with no 4th amendment or a very changed one?

I was not using the split screen to show a conversation but to show the timing of the villains covering up evidence, to how long it would take for the cop to get the go ahead to search and enter.

Sorry if I was coming off as stubborn, it's just I keep being told on here to come up with my own ways of shooting the movie and that that's my job as a director. So I come up with an idea of how to shoot this scene, and then I am told it's wrong.

But if I should come up with my own ways of portraying the scene, then shouldn't I own them therefore?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Is anyone outside Canada won't know the 4th amendment, plus characters in films and TV don't always follow the rules. Therefore you have to know if your character bends the rules and if so, how far will they go?

It's entirely up to you how you shoot a scene.

As Kubrick would ask "It might be real, but is it interesting?"

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but shouldn't I market the film to audiences in the US too, if that is where the story is set? I could set it in Canada, I just thought maybe an American setting would be more popular with an American audience.

But Canada has a forth amendment equivalent though too.

And I don't have to use the split screen, I just thought it would be better for the timing for this section. I can reconsider, and ask the DP for input as well, after I find one.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You shouldn't be spending your time on odd cinematic things like split screen or concerning yourself with the 4th amendment. You should be crafting interesting characters and plots that explore things that engage the audience. The plot and subject is often secondary to the characters in them. People love and cherish Sherlock Homes without having to know the rules of English law.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, it's just I thought that the characters and plot are already created and the next order of business was to storyboard and do the shotlist, then a DP and crew, then casting, and then work with the cast on the characters as well. Unless that's not a good order to do things? Or at what point should I do the storyboard and shot list then?

As for audiences not caring about legal things, what happens though, when people read your script and they say this is not how the police would legally behave. Does that mean that some readers care about the law still and I should do research therefore and rewrite it, or no?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I've lost it, I think. What exactly is going on side by side, that is crucial enough to split the viewer's attention?

I've heard of the 5th amendment. That's the one where the cops ask the question and the other side "take the 5th" - which without researching I presume is something about not incriminating yourself? I've never heard of the 4th, or the 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Ryan - you ask us a question and we give an honest opinion.We do tell you to come up with different ways to solve your problems, but when you come up with ones we know won't work, are you asking us to pat you on the back and say - "brilliant, Ryan, that will work splendidly" or just tell you the truth? If you come up with a good idea, we'd be very pleased for you.

Is your actual script in need of all this cleverness? Surely if the words are good, then they don't need tricks. I rather like the sequential location change when people use radios or phones. The totally technically ridiculous scene in the first Die Hard, where John talks to the Police officer. Just cuts that move from the top of the building to outside. A simple conversation, and two actors talking to nobody, put together in the edit. I suspect somebody simply read in the lines from the actor not in the shot and it works rather well. They could have used a split screen, and cost or actor considerations didn't apply - it would have been confusing and unnecessary.

You need a very good script. You need to then create the pictures that go with it and then you present this to the good actors and competent crew for shooting. A mistake in any of these components will wreck it.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks. The thing that is going on side by side, is the cop looking for probable cause to get in, or waiting on permission vs. on the other side, the villains trying to clean up all their evidence in time and escape out the back. I felt that if I show the timings of these two side by side, it would make it more of an entertaining unfold.

No, I am not trying to ask for a pat on the back of course. I am just wondering what am I doing wrong. Am I doing something different wrong on a case by case basis, or is their a route core problem in my way of planning on a scene perhaps that is prevalent in all my scene plannings?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

[QUOTE=Ryan Elder;1956844 As for audiences not caring about legal things, what happens though, when people read your script and they say this is not how the police would legally behave. Does that mean that some readers care about the law still and I should do research therefore and rewrite it, or no?[/QUOTE]

Do you actually believe that all cops follow all the legal requirements? Unfortunately, history of full of cases where they don't and some of the best fiction is about stories in which they don't. You should know the standard procedures, but you should also know enough about your world to follow those cases where they don't follow them.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh well it's just I was told that the cop would be fired for breaking the rules like that, and the audience would expect that.

Now I know I was told not to compare to other movies, but if I do, and you watch Dirty Harry and Lethal Weapon, those protagonists are breaking the rules all the time though. However, I was told that those characters are more emotionally invested in the crime stories at that point, where as mine is just a cop on patrol who got a call, and he is not personally invested yet, since this is early on and an inciting incident, if that's a valid point?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

If you say "I was told" to justify every misunderstanding, you will never learn. Next time somebody tells you something, before accepting it as gospel, try some research, and if you find it valid opinion, take it on board. Many times, however, you'll find people have told you things that are wrong, or maybe they just were misunderstood. You misunderstand so much of what is said to you.

If the cop does everything above board, won't this be terrible dull? Your life experience seems so limited. Have you never taken chances, looked at potential risk and ignored it, or done what your gut says is correct, but the rules say is not? Have you never taken a stand, or acted on your heart? People follow rules, unless there is a reason not to.

Would a police officer intent on putting a murderer away who they were 100% convinced was guilty ignore a piece of contrary evidence that they knew defence counsel would use to get them off? Sounds like the premise for a screenplay. An honest policeman who if he does the right thing, would set a murderer free? Or should he simply turn a blind eye to the new evidence and let natural justice put the guy away for life? If you have to be scrupulously accurate, it will be due, dull, dull. Where's the drama, the conflict, the resolution?

Throw away the rule book, make new ones up, or be a bit radical - I suspect this just isn't you.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Okay thanks. I'll do that.

There is also another scene where I want to have a character testify in a hearing, and I want another character to see what she is saying, and then get an idea to move onto the next plot point.

However, hearings like this are often not open to the public for anyone to just come in and watch. So if I write it so that this one is, would the audience be bothered by it?

As for the split screen, I just feel that when people tell me not to do something, I need a reason. But when reasons are said like it's unnecessary, or drawing attention to itself, or that is now how people view the world, those just seem like vague explanations, and if I shouldn't do it, I just feel I need a more more specific reason, rather than a vague one, if that makes sense?

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

I wouldn't worry about it, one feature film had a lawyer doing the case in an English court, which would be done by a barrister (a lawyer who presents the case in court), they amalgamated these roles into a single part. The film is based on a true story.

That's a lot more noticeable to a member of the British public and people aware of the UK legal system than your outsider being at a hearing, especially since you say it can sometimes happen. As they say, don't learn your history from watching feature films.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay. It's just I don't want the to have to fill the whole courtroom with extras and only want the characters that matter to the plot to be there. So as long as the audience buys that he is there, and no one else, etc. I can try to keep thinking on how to do that...

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Aaaagh!! You're doing it again. You're making decisions about what is best, based on what is best for a no budget production. We argue about the cinematographic elements and angles, and grip kit when your scene has been written to allow you to do it with LESS realism because you can't pay for actors. You won't make video compromises but accept scen/set/cast ones?

This is just ridiculous. If you want quality but cannot afford it, then scrap ideas for a big movie with minimal unrealistic scenes because you need to depopulate it, and write a story that only has a small cast throughout. You are trying to convince yourself you can make quality products without content!!

Your split screen idea makes sense now - it's cheap.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

You don't need to fill an entire court room, just pack the areas around the characters with extras, use longer lenses to narrow the angle of view if need be or mostly have walls/ceiling in the background by lowering the camera height,

Don't have a wide shot of the court room, just show the exterior of the building and cut to the scene.

Keep the scene short and to the point, not rambling.dialogue.

Again, do more shorts, this is the stuff you learn by making them

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay, but shouldn't I be trying to come up with ways to make the story cheaper to shoot, with less actors? Isn't that good though? Since the character I want to hear the testimony is a cop, I could have him flash his badge to get in, to listen in compared to the general public, if the audience will buy that...

Well I don't have to show a wide of the courtroom necessarily, it's just in past projects, if I didn't show establishing shots, than I was told it was strange, and people asked where are the establishing shots. So if I don't show them, I feel it coudl be confusing or jarring, like it was in past projects, where I didn't show wides.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

The exterior of the court is the establishing shot. you don't need to see a wide shot of the whole court room, the audience knows where we are. Court rooms usually have furniture that reveal peoples roles eg witness stand, dock, judges sear and desk etc, so you can see the key relationships. without showing the entire court room. At the most, you can use the front of the court, that's the interesting part.

We know the character is a cop, so the audience will assume he can access the court, unless he's going to be a witness in the case.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Oh okay thanks, as long as the audience will buy that a cop has special privileges for accessing a court hearing that is not open to the public, especially if that cop is not even part of the case and just wants to listen in.

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

It'll work if it's been already established that he has some interest the case, even if he's not on it. However, he has to be there for a reason, if only meeting a fellow cop on the case for a drink after work.

The film "Hidden Figures" shows how historical reality and a feature film can differ, so don't get obsessive about minor details in telling a story in a dramatic film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures

Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?
 

Yeah there is a reason why the cop has an interest in the case, it's just that the audience might think why is the judge letting him set in if he has nothing to do with it, and why doesn't the judge tell him to get out, this isn't a public hearing, etc.