Late requests ...
 

May I add a request to your extensive and well considered list?

I recently rented sticks for a shoot & received the Sachtler DV4 -- a few years old I suspect, and probably not available anymore. In using them, I was constantly frustrated by a couple of things that it would be nice to see referenced in your comparison:
1) Bubble level location. The DV4 I used had the bubble level at the six o'clock position, directly under the camera plate. You could look down at it if you removed the camera -- otherwise you were stuck with an oblique and couldn't really get a level;
2) Lever lengths for the pan & tilt lock. I was shooting some industrial shots that involved a pan and tilt, lock on subject, later resume pan and tilt. Shots were minutes long, the middle were lock-off. As I could never find a 'perfect' balance for the camera, I was either obliged to hold steady with the pan arm for the duration of the lock-off (so not really 'locked' ...) or carefully tighten the lock while the camera was rolling, loosen later to resume pan/tilt. Doable, but I'd have preferred it if the lock levers were twice as long as they were;
3) Visual indicator of lock positions. For the pan & tilt functions you could tell by the angle of the lever whether the lock was tight or loose -- for the legs, you couldn't tell anything without checking them with your fingers. Quick release leg locks are perfect, but I do prefer them in most instances;

Thanks for all your efforts. Using the older Sachtler sticks was a reminder to me of how important it is to a smooth workflow to have a tripod that does what you want, when you want with minimal fuss and fiddling. And a reminder of how much I hate floor spreaders. And bottom of the leg twist locks. And camera plates that have only coarse fore & aft balance adjustments.

Cheers,
GB

Hi, RGB.................
 

I think you can take it for granted that any system displaying the list of horrors you outlined, and had the misfortune to fall into my grasp, would very quickly find itself sent back whence it came with a note attached:

"You're kidding, right?"

If you read a couple of my reviews you'll see that not a lot gets by me without comment, and nothing is safe.


CS

I haven't seen the latest list of items to be included in the reviews, but after reading the post about the damaged head and your reply, I might suggest adding a check box for the availability of owners/maintenance/parts manuals to owners.

Hi, Ed..........
 

Yeah, pretty well got that covered in V. 8, er, I think.

Better check that again, just in case.


CS

Yes, I guess you have it well covered other than telling us what the inside left screws are made off.

The table is set, let's now get on with the party !

Thanks chris, i will give it a try.

Hi, Daniel...............
 

You may care to mail Wayne directly, as you're both members, just click on his name and you'll get his details.

Not entirely sure he's quite prepared for what sticking his head over the DVinfo parapet has meant, but he'll get there in time, just be gentle.

Vincent:

Well, there is a small problem with just "party".

One actually needs to have the gear here, hot and ready to go,

So far, I have the VB and the Sachtler rigs (and the latter missing some very important bits to boot).

Of the others, nothing, squat, nada.

"I'm working on it" may sound a bit hackneyed, but that's what I'm doing.

When I've got it, I've got it.

Can't review stuff I ain't got, certainly not for a "shootout", and that's for sure.

And there are sure going to be some suprises for this round of reviews, I kid you not.

I can't say anymore lest I scare the kids and horses anymore than I've already done.

Be patient, I'm getting there, this was always going to be the "shootout" from Hell to organise and do, I will, the Gods willing, get there.


CS

Update.............
 

Libec RS250 arrived this arvo, boxing a bit the worse for wear, but no harm done.

Long plate and boots included but no GLS, however, the feet are perfect replicas of the Manfrotto so it fits the Manfrotto unit like a glove.

Very neat looking MLS, some serious thought gone into that.

Nice looking unit, not quite the "poke your eye out" looks of the Sachtler or Vinten rigs but workmanlike and everything necessary seems to be in the right place and do what it's supposed to.

Just waiting on the Manfrotto 504HD and it's "play ball".

Nearly there boys and girls.


CS

"Are we there yet?"

Quiet................
 

in back there!

Can't you see I'm trying to drive!


CS

Bloody kids!

Awesome!
 

I'd love to see this shoot out! Thanks CS

I have been meaning to find some shootout between the RS250 and the Vinten Vision Blue.

I actually purchased the Blue system from B&H a week ago. It's an awesome unit! BUT I found out about the RS250 which having ALMOST the same spec (excluding the LED, and continuous drag) as the Blue for cheaper price.

I'm going to B&H to check out the RH25 and see how it compares to my Blue. I guess I can also let you guys know my experience.

Thanks CS!

Rs350
 

I have the Libec Rs350 system, and can tell you it is a great setup. The fluid drag adjusts in thee steps plus off, and the continuously variable counterbalance is such a nice thing, especially when I have monitors and mattebox and filters and ..... weighing it down. Balance is easy to achieve.


I sprung for the ground level spreader version, seemed like more stable idea, however I'm thinking of getting the Miller Solo CF sticks for travel.

Time for an update..............
 

I'm expecting the Manfrotto rig on my doorstep tomorrow or the day after at the latest, screw ups notwithstanding.

It would appear that there is a possibilty that both an E - Image and Secced system will be made available as well, making this the shootout of all support shootouts!

I have to admit. I never would have believed I could line up so many ducks in a row and get them to stay put, in my life.

Given the late arrival of gear, the sheer amount of work required to collate all the the information required, write it it up, proof, format, send to DVinfo for them to translate it to whatever, whilst eating their Christmas turkey (probaly 3 days after the event, cold) don't expect to see the final (er, first?) installment of this till well into January.

Whenever it reaches daylight, it's going to be a blinder, and no mistake.

Oh, and suprises for all, to boot.

Gonna be good folks, I can promise you that.


CS

Ummm......Mr Soucy......
 

....Would you be able to help me........I'd like to update from my old "Monopod" a new "Tripod".......do you know anything about them.............is there somewhere I could read a comparative review?????????

In anticipation, from the Western Island, Thank you..... ;)

Al

Just buy two more monopods and some string...!

I'm getting perilously close to pulling the trigger on a Vision Blue, my little camera at 2kg is heavier than I thought it was, and is just about at the Blue's minimum rating.

I have a craving for quality.

The Manfrotto has landed..........
 

And boy, they've not been idle with their new gear, most impressive.

Replaceable pan rosettes and even pull and twist adjustable pan and tilt lock knob positions!

The tripod legs even drop without spreading and the spreader doesn't really let the legs spread, more like do the splits

Case is interesting too.

Looking forward to digging further.

Al,

Yeah, there's this crazy Kiwi I know who seems to have a bit of a clue, I'll see what he can come up with.

Mike,

You might as well pull the trigger on the VB and give yourself a Chrissy present. Heck, you know you want to.


CS

Latest, hot off the wire...........
 

Both the Secced and E - Image systems have been withdrawn from the shootout for the time being as being, er, unwell ( I won't say any more).

Maybe sometime down the track one or both companies will cough up with working models for me to play with, we'll see how that goes.

For the moment tho', the lineup is as follows:

Libec RS250, Manfrotto 504HD, Sachtler FSB6 and Vinten Vision Blue.

The absence of Miller is regretted, but their reaction was, literally, "Thanks, but no thanks", read into that what you wish.

I hasten to add that neither of the Chinese companies mentioned above could even be contacted direct for discussion, they having refused to answer mails to their head offices.

The systems I mentioned (above) were coming from a different source.

Enough said, on with the reviews.......


CS

Great thread to read. I will testify the HD504 head is pro and rather cool looking. Honestly, I wasn't expecting outstanding stuff and was proven wrong. Just my two cents.

Mike....
 

...Great advice, I'll up the ante and go with bungy cord and a bit of 3 ply for the top.......

Chris, It's OK mate, I've got my needs sorted, re; the above reply to Mike........Toil away anyway and to show my appreciation I shall read the review.........

Al

So did Secced and E - Image systems just said NO or do they want to chime in with newer models?

Chris,

I'm getting more interested to see how your review places the Bogen 504 vs the Vinten and Sachtler. I haven't had great Bogen experiences to date, but I always thought they had great, very robust build quality. Never understood why they dropped shy of the big boys in smoothness.

Frank, Roger..................
 

Frank:

Secced and E - Image were both contacted but simply did not respond. I'm making what efforts I can to establish communication but I think unless one of their dealers fancies taking a punt, it's going to be slow going.


Roger:

I haven't had a chance as yet to do any objective tests on any of the kit, but if looks alone counted for marks I'd have to say the Manfrotto 504HD/ 546B combo I have here would be a 9 out of 10 at least.

They've really put a lot of thought and Italian design flair into this product, and it shows.

It also has one of the best slot load heads I've ever played with - you can load it practically blindfolded.

More soon.


CS

Ordered my VB with mid spreader today.

Sigh.

Now the waiting begins....

(And no, Chris, I don't mean Victoria Bitter!)

Post Chrissy update.................
 

Mike,

You should have ordered both!

Reviews:

Paperwork piling up on my desk for the relevant systems so high I can barely see my screen, but I'm getting there.

Suppliers/ manufacturers have pulled a blinder in getting me esoteric info.

The job now is to get it collated into something resembling order and get it posted into the relevant slot at DVinfo.

Reviews themselves waiting on completion of support deformation tests, which I've just started this arvo.

[Yes, I did just write "support deformation tests", just in case anyone thought that was a typo.]

Hope to have those completed in the next few days, then more collation and again, post to DVinfo.

Then, the reviews themselves and the shootout comparisons.

Geez, can't imagine why it's taken me so long to get this sorted, must just be slack!

So much for the great and venerable NZ Chrissy 4 week "do nothing" period, I'm working like a dog here.

It's coming folks, just hang in there.


CS

Thanks Chris,
I appreciate the hard work and look forward to the results.
Happy New Year too!
z

Hi, Wayne.......
 

to another Pacific Islander, good to have you on board.

Talk about Santa's Little Helpers, I could use the frigging dwarves and most of the rheindeer as well, right about now!

Now, if they only knew how to calibrate a theodolite.............., er, Laser Level? Set Square? Range Finder?

GPS system?

Cook dinner, serve drinks and generally do whatever, whilst I discover America - er, didn't someone do that already?

No stress here folks, just mosey on along, I'll be fine..............


CS

This is the only bit I'm sad about. It seems Gitzo offers something unique, but the world of sticks remains a mystery because no one (it seems) has done any wide ranging, systematic tresting & comparisions.

Well, it's coming..............
 

Info never before published about any camera support system ever made is going to be going live here soon.

The Libec system review is complete apart from collating and annotating.

The Stress Tests on all the systems have been completed (as far as they will be for this initial release, anyway) and are an eye opener and no mistake.

The tests give an absolute figure for how much a particular set of sticks will wind up at what pan arm load, and also how much head warp ditto.

Now you don't get that sort of info anywhere else.

I've started on the review of the Manfrotto 504HD system, the last will be the Sachtler FSB 6/ Speedlock 75 CF unit.

The biggest problem is assembling the database of all the info I've managed to aquire, that is going to be a mission and no mistake, tho' doable with a bit of help, which I'm hoping will be forthcoming shortly.

You want to know what tube spacing is used for any section of the sticks? It's there.

Tube diameter? It's there.

Cross section? There.

Leg angle at full spreader retract and deploy? It's there.

Teaser time:

Best sticks in the stress tests?

Go on, you know who.

Worst?

I'm not saying but it will come as a shock to all and sundry.

Second best head tested to date?

Bit of a suprise, shame about the lousy sticks.

Question time:

Why do the Manfrotto 504HD pan bearings sound and feel like they're made of broken glass?

Why is the Sachtler GLS so damn flexible at the ends? You can lift a foot just by thought control!

What idiot designed the Libec sticks with a MLS that at full retract gives a leg angle of 77 degrees?

Why am I sitting here writing this when I could be going out for a decent steak with all the trimmings?

Just to keep you lot updated.

It IS HAPPENING and it's going to be good.

Well, at least, I hope you lot get something out of it.

More soon.


CS

Do they have steak in NZ??????????.............I thought it was was the land of the big white sheep!!!!!!!!............There ya go, amazing what one can learn from a tripod shootout......................definitely worth the effort you've put in.........

Al

PS, Maybe the steak's flown in from the West!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can have a lamb steak - we've got sheep here in Wales too you now!
Anyway, looking forward to reading Chris's findings (shame about the 504HD, might just be a one-off...)

Pacific Islander
 

Aloha Chris,
We have a few Kiwis here on Kauai and you're welcome aboard as well!
Bring those heads and sticks along and I'll do my best to help your analysis. A laser is a small boat right?
It's hard to keep those level sometimes...
Best,
Z

If only..............
 

I'm gonna need a break after this lot, and no mistake.

I'll have to see if I can talk the other half into me going AWOL for a couple of weeks up to the "other" islands, could be a bit of fun.

Not so sure about all this gear tho', probably have to hire the entire plane to get it there, geez, the excess baggage would look like Nigerias national debt!

Interesting you mentioning the laser sailer, I used to race something very similar oh, er, well, a very long time ago when I was a teen in Hobart, loved those boats.

Wouldn't mind having another shot at something similar somewhere hot, where a wet suit wasn't mandatory to prevent hypothermia just looking at the water, let alone getting in it!

I'll see what I can do.


CS

Chris,

Your efforts are very much appreciated (and anticipated). All this for no reward! Unless they are letting you keep all those tripods. You could sign them and sell them on eBay and make your fortune.

Alas, my mind was made up already, and I'm supposed to be getting a visit from Mr Courier today with a package with a big "V" on it....

My God, that is one beautiful tripod. Works like a dream under my HMC41.

Perfect balance is so good I giggled like a girl. Whip pan is an eye-opener.

And it's all Soucy's fault that I bought it. Damn him!

I'll tell you a little secret...............
 

I don't feel one ounce of guilt whatsoever!

When you've had some real play time, get back to us with your take on it.

Anything I missed out? Anything I stuffed up?

In all the excitement, don't forget to open yourself an account with Vinten and register your gear for that extended warranty - you'l need your serial numbers, btw.

Don't know whether they're sending out Vinten T shirts anymore (I hope so, mine is sooo cool) but the account is definately worth it.

Keep us posted.


CS

No Good Deed Shall Go Unpunished
 

If Chris sells off the gear, how will he be able to complete the long-term durability testing phase?
I'm looking forward to detailed updates at regular intervals; for example, after 1, 3 and 5 years of daily use.

So Chris, don't retire the white lab coat just yet.

Mark

I had to make this choice about three years ago for supporting the Sony Z1 camera. I now have the NX5 which has similar characteristics. At the time I compared many systems, including the Sachtler FSB6 as well as models from Vinten and Bogen. I had Bogen previously but wanted to move up. Imporatant in this purchase was speed of setup, smoothness in movement (minimal or no backlash), and ease of carrying.

Without getting into all the details, I chose the Miller Solo DV Carbon Fiber with DS-10 head. AT 8 lb. it was the lightest of the comparables and offered some interesting features, like ability to do low angles. The movement was very smooth without noticeable backlash, and it leveled quickly. The quick release works well, and it is supplied with a nice professional case and carrying strap. The closest rival weightwise was the Sachtler at about 12 lbs.

At first I thought the MIller's QR plate was too large, but it actually fits the camera well and doesn't interfere with handholding. The lightness of this pod pays off when I'm carrying a load of gear or when it's a long walk to the parking lot.

My only criticism is that the DS-10 head is designed for a certain counterbalance range with a two-position switch for 5- and 10-pound cameras, so it's not totally correct for cameras in the intermediate range. I'd rather have a continuously variable counterbalance. I cope with this by adjusting the fore and aft position.

Since then Sony has released the 501 HDV which is well suited to cameras of this size. I've also seen new Libec models which are a good choice for this camera. However, I have no plans to trade in my Miller.

Good to hear your positive experience with the Miller. We have an Arrow 25 we like and we just bought the solo dv and compass 15 for our af100.

So far I like it a lot. So much lighter for our scrambly shoots.

There seems to be a lot of mixed opinion about the millers, good to hear your positive experience with the solo dv.

Any rough ETA when the review might be coming? I'm trying to decide between the Vinten and Sachtler and your review sounds like it could be very helpful. Thanks and cheers!

Hi, Scott..................
 

A couple of weeks, tho' I'm not sure if CH and Jeff have made any progress with the details section which was always going to be a real nightmare.

If you've got any specific questions on the mentioned two systems under review - Vinten Vision Blue & Sachtler FSB 6 with 75 CF sticks, fire away, I've got 'em nailed pretty good already, and the VB review is already live.

Tell me what you shoot with, it's weight, any special conderations and budget and I can most probably give you an answer now.


CS