Thanks Chris. I shoot with a Canon 5DMKII. At it's lightest, body with a prime, about 2.5lbs and fully pimped with a long lens, monitor, mic, etc. maybe 8-10lbs. I plan to just purchase the head and put it on a set of Gitzo CF 3541XLS legs with 75mm bowl. I shoot mostly documentary type stuff and travel a lot so I'm looking to keep the setup as lightweight as possible. I'm moving up from a Gitzo 2380 head and budget isn't really an issue (between $500-$1,500). I think smoothness, weight, and size are my main considerations. Basically I want to purchase the best head possible for this weight range so it will last me for the next 10 years. Thanks for the feedback and effort on the review.

Thanks for the encouragement, Scott...........
 

This thing has taken on a life all of it's own and there are occasions I ask myself "Did I really volunteer for this?"

The answer of course is "Yes", and I know at some point I'll actually be able to find my desk under this mountain of paperwork (the stuff computers were supposed to make redundant, right?) and actually "get a life".

There are occasions however, when I open the study door, look at my desk, mutter a sotto voice "Oh geejushchrist" and back out again to go have a cigarette to steady my nerves.

However, to your problem.

I've tested all the systems I have with both my Canon XH A1 and XL1s video cameras, but as yet haven't done the business with my SLR's (why, I ask myself?) so that a low 2.5 lbs with such a low COG is a bit of an unknown.

(I now remember why my old Canon A1 SLR system is sitting in pride of place on my bedroom chair - it was for the testing I still haven't done yet, it's about the right weight/ COG for a modern HDSLR system in slim mode).

Rather than "shoot from the lip" on this one, give me a day, maybe two, to do that testing, just to see how the various systems actually perform with the lower weight/ COG SLR systems I can configure.

Keeping this interesting is the published figures for the weight ratings of the 4 systems and the COG's thereof;

Sachtler: 125 mm, 1 - 6 kg
Manfrotto: Not specified but probably 125 mm, 0 - 7.5 kg
Libec: 100 mm, 1.8 - 5kg
Vinten: 55 mm, 2.1 - 5.0 kg

In many respects these figures are about as much use as an ashtray on a bicycle, especially when trying to map them to low weight/ COG SLR's.

Adding to the confusion, the only true "continuously variable counterbalance" heads on show are the Libec and Vinten, the others being stepped, the Sachtler somewhat more gracefully than the Manfrotto, it must be said.

However, the stepped systems do have some "gotchas" attached which I'm still evaluating (read: why on earth do a stepped system when you can do continuous and save using tilt drag to do what the cb can't?).

Anyway, none of this is getting the chook cooked, so I better go do.

If you haven't heard from me in two days, raise a flag, my memory at the moment is about as usefull as the previously mentioned "ashtray on bicycle", so I might need some prodding.

Regards,


CS

Ha! Chris.

I had to take a bathroom break in the middle, but that was a great post. ; )

Ha, John.............
 

If it's any consolation, I probably went out for 4 smokes, fed the cats (no small feat in our house!), topped up my wine glass about 3 times, got my dinner ready to go (the missus is away,Yeah!) and also took a couple of pit stops as well.

I tell you, it's all go here in Metropolitan downtown Fairfield (pop. 320 and that may well be including the local cemetary, not sure, on a weekend, you'd swear this place IS the local cemetary!).

Glad you enjoyed. I do my best to please!


CS

Hey Chris, thanks for all the work and testing. If I could just make your life a little more difficult, the best DSLR "type" camera in terms of video capability, for the moment, is the Panasonic GH2. They are nearly impossible to find right now. Out of stock everywhere. They're barely over 1 pound in weight, about half the weight of a Canon 7d. They're also dirt cheap yet produce fantastic video footage. So these cameras will eventually have enormous penetration in the market, once orders are fulfilled. Hopefully you'll factor in the ever decreasing mass of the hybrid cams in your testing.

Hmmm..................
 

I took at look at some of his stuff last night.

Enough said.


CS

And so it came to pass................
 

Right on cue.

Maybe we'll start getting answers to questions that have been just waiting for this moment, like:

1. If this is your first and only HD video enabled camera (and dirt cheap to boot) how much, if anything, are you prepared to pay for a tripod/ head?

2. If this is not your first/ only HD enabled camera and you have a pro or semi pro support which can't deal with the low weight/ cog, what would it be worth to have a means of getting this or any other small form factor camera/ camcorder to work with your existing system?

I'm sure there are many more waiting in the wings

Now, some answers.

My stripped down Canon HV 20 - no battery, no tape, weighs in at about 1 lb 6 ounces.

Having tried it on all four of the test systems here, the scores are:

Libec - nill pointe

Manfrotto - zero CB, max 9 on the tilt drag, just squeaks un pointe.

Sachtler - nill pointe

Vinten - nill pointe

However, at 9 on the tilt drag Richter scale the Manfrotto would be such a cow to use I feel like docking that 1 point just because I can.

But realistically folks, just how many, as don't have one of these beasts already, are gonna go lash out anywhere from $700 odd to nearly $1600 or thereabouts to hold up a 1 lb odd camera?

Especially if the camera is "dirt cheap"?

I mean, come on, how many?

Brian, you're in the chair, what's your take on this?

Let's just assume I can pull a rabbit and get any of these dinky cams to work with any of these systems, is that really going to make a difference?

Bods as already have existing systems requiring this level of support may well be interested, but the dinky cam brigade?

Thought for the day.


CS

My take on the situation is probably out of the mainstream since I'm a person who has, in the past, paid thousands for EX3's, Beta Cams etc. So to my way of thinking, although I paid only $630 for the GH2's, and considering the great images they produce, I figure I'm way ahead of curve and shouldn't be afraid to spend more, a lot more even, on a tripod system than I paid for the camera. And the irony is, so far it looks like the more you spend on a tripod for a tiny HD Hybrid like a GH2, the less sense it makes, at least that's what the rep from Libec told me today. The Libec rep said the higher end models have great features, but the ultra lights simply cannot utilize them. Well, maybe by the time you load up on peripherals...
Here's some of the stuff I have:
GH2 Body 1 pound
Tascam DR100 10oz
Rail system .8 kilo
Oly Lens 15oz

How's this for service..........
 

And I'm gonna post these figures now so at least I don't have to find yet another piece of paper in this disaster area that used to be my desk.

OK, SLR tests, as far as I'm able with the kit to hand.

2.5 pounds dead:

Libec = forget it.

Manfrotto = CB 1, Tilt drag = 8

Sachtler = CB 1, Tilt drag = 2

Vinten = forget it


4.5 pound dead:

Libec = CB 0, Tilt drag = 2

Manfrotto = CB 1, Tilt Drag = 7 (Note: There IS a 0 on the Manfrotto CB)

Sachtler = CB 1, Tilt Drag 2 (Note: There IS NO 0 on the Sachtler CB)

Vinten = CB 0, Tilt drag = 0

Where there are figures, they are the CB and Tilt drag settings on the heads required to get perfect counterbalance with the SLR configuration I used.

I wouldn't bet the farm that another DSLR with identical weight but a different form factor/ COG will behave the same.

Thanks for the prod, Scott, I may well have sailed straight through to publication and blisfully ignored this test otherwise.


CS

Interesting.....
 

Thanks Chris! I felt a little guilty about driving you to do this test (and driving you to excessive drink and smoke) so I'm glad it will be useful in the final review. I was leaning towards the Vinten since it was supposedly re-engineered with DSLR size/weight systems in mind. Interesting results with it on the lite end. I'll have to keep considering and digging a bit before making a final decision.

Food for thought, yet again............
 

Scott:

Don't feel guilty, it really was a wake up call and you aren't driving me to excessive anything, I do that as a matter of course, goes with the territory.

Brian:

You've just hammerd home what I have been saying to "interested parties" shall we say, for quite some time.

Making any headway? Nope.

I'm going to enter into another round based on the feedback here on DVinfo and, of course, the reviews, but I fear the worst.

That's what theyv'e done for X years and it's worked, so they'll keep on doing it that way untill there isn't any market left.

I have plans for both short and long term with this problem.

The major hurdle is, untill they percieve that there IS a problem, why should they change?

I'm pissing into the wind at the moment, but I'll just keep on trying.

Anyway, back to the present:

Now you know and so does Scott, and anyone else who has bothered to follow this extravaganza of a thread.

I admire your stamina, this is one bloody humungous thread!

And:

I would like to thank all and every poster and hitter on this thread for your input and attention to date.

This thing is looking to break all records, on a subject so esoteric I thought it'd be lucky to get a couple of hundred hits, at best.

8,680 and climbing!

Must be hitting a nerve somewhere.

Keep it up, people, and chime in if there's anything you want to say on the subject.

And if you ain't a member, join!!!

Heck, it's FREE!

More bods to shred with my usual low cunning and high IQ - "oy, who in the back said cunning as a sh*t house rat and even lower IQ and taste?"

Laugh, guys, this can get just soooo OTT on occasions.

Have a good one.


CS

Not that anyone shout doubt the Bard of Dunedin, but just to add my 2p worth.

My HMC41 is 2.1kg with handle, XLR adapter, big battery, mic and windshield. I'd say it is just about the minimum usable camera on the Vinten Vision Blue - and yes, the perfect balance is perfect with it, everything is fine.

Take off all the extras - no windshield, no mic, no XLR adapter, no big battery, no handle - and the camera is about 2lbs, 1kg. Not suited at all to the Vinten Vision Blue, the lightest counterbalance is too strong.

I mounted my Panasonic FZ100 stills camera (which takes a good video too) and it was sheer comedy - that camera is about 1lb in weight. Waaaay too light.

For ultra-light cameras, I think the closest "good" tripod I can think of is the Sachtler FSB-2, which may or may not still be available. It had counterbalance at 0, 1 and 2 kg (0, 2.2 and 4.4 lbs).

That's the problem. You're now stuck with a Manfrotto or other cheap piece of junk, which your camera can actually tilt with, but which has the fluid performance of a bag of grit.

Maybe mount your tiny-DSLR on a slider full-time and it might meet the minimum weight for the better tripods!

Chris,

It sounds like we may not have a perfect ultralight camera-tripod solution in the mix.

I'm shooting the DSLR's for the image and ultra portability, not just the value. If the AF100 outshines the GH2 for computer screen or corporate type projects, I'll seriously consider it. If they're pretty equal to corporate clients, I'd go for the GH2 or keep the 7D and t2i I already have. I'd really like a tripod to optimize these light platforms. In the recent past the idea was to invest in a tripod because you'd use it for many years and go through several cameras before you wore it out. The trend towards extremely light gear is challenging traditional logic. There are some great cameras coming in at a few pounds and Vintens and Sachtlers purchased 10 years ago for 10 to 20 pound cameras don't play well at all with the new light gear. What excites me about the light gear is the ability to travel without a pack mule. It will be very appealing when a mfg creates a very high quality ultralight tripod to compliment the ultralight cameras.

I don't know what you guys are seeing, but the tendency towards a backpack with 2 or 3 DSLR's or small form video cams is starting to challenge the guys with pro cams and honking tripods. 2010 was the year where the high end consumer gear (Note I said "consumer" and not "pro-sumer" gear) proved it could satisfy many non-broadcast applications. The DOF look of the DSLR on the computer monitor or on the corporate white screen may appeal more than the higher resolution and technical purity of the larger cams with small sensors. YouTube has further dulled our sense to traditional quality. Welcome to the world of "Good Enough" and the teenager next door is your competition. Serious competition.

The industry needs to provide an excellent integrated system you can pack for under 5 lbs. That's Camera and tripod. I'll be packing two of them in a single backpack when it comes. : )

Mike- Thanks for the real world info on the Blue. That's very helpful. An alternative I'm looking at is the Sacthler Cine-DSLR which appears to be a modified FSB-6 with a weight range of 1-11 lbs. You give up 2 lbs on the heavy end compared to the FSB-6 but you gain the low end which could handle a bare DSLR. That's one reason I'm curious to see Chris' take on the FSB-6 since most other performance characteristics should be the same.

Roger- Hopefully good storytelling skills will still count for something and you won't be competing with every teenager on your block, just with the one little sh!t who has the gear AND happens to know how to tell a compelling story! ;-)

Shhhh Scott! Don't let them find out about story. That's our secret here!

Roger, that's exactly what I'm doing now, I have two GH2's in a backpack. I love the redundancy and compact form factor.

I'm going to give the Libec LS22DV a test. That's the one the Libec rep said is best suited to a GH2.

I would. I've used a crappy tripod with a cheap but pretty good handycam. It was, well, not exactly a nightmare, but not exactly not. A real PITA. I would and will pay good money to avoid that in the future.

The people who will pay for a decent tripod for a small camera are those that a) need it, and b) would rather create than fight with their equipment.

As such, I'm very interested in your conclusions. This time my cheap-ish but pretty good camera is a Panny GH2.

..A little lead weight.....
 

Guys,

I've followed this thread since it's inception...I think it's been going for a year now....lol....feels like it...

BUT....I see it swinging to the topic of "light weight DSLR's" now, not being a user of same, I have a couple of old clunker XL2's, I may be out of line here but my suggestion is to simply make up a lead platform that sits between the QR plate and the camera, If you need a high C of G, make it thick, if a low C of G is required, make it thin, either mold in a mounting thread, or drill a hole through it and fit a longer threaded cheese head metalthread, after all, they're only a quarter inch BSW from memory.[Correct me if I'm wrong]

This will get you all around existing problems, ie. weight & C of G and you're all happy campers until a manufacturer comes up with the ideal rig for you guys.

Just my 2c worth.....but I'm goin' to charge a buck 'cuse I think it's soooo cleva.....

Al

That sucks. I was seriously thinking of getting the Vinten for my GH2 and 5D. Thanks for the info.

Sachtler Cine DSLR
 

Apart from a different payload range the Sachtler Cine DSLR also has a longer camera plate designed for use with DSLR cameras.

The Decider....
 

Decided to just go with the Sachtler FSB-8. The reason was that it offered coverage for the widest weight range 2.0-20lbs which covers my current DSLR set up and pretty much any camera I'll throw at it in the foreseeable future. For $380 more than the FSB-6 it seems like the wisest investment for the long term. If the Vision Blue had covered the lower end better (down to 2.5lbs) I would have had a hard time passing it up due to the price point. Also if the Sachtler CINE-DSLR had been priced similar to the Vinten it would have been an easy choice to go for the CINE-DSLR. Once I get some time with the FSB-8 I'll post a follow up with my impressions. Cheers and thanks to Chris and all who helped with info and insight.

why not just add a little weight to the cam when used on a tripod? I'm sure a simple metal adapter plate would get the job done. Some guy at your local machine shop is tired of making the same ol things & wouldn't mind you coming along & giving him a few bucks to drill some holes in metal.

Ethan- I think adding weight with a simple metal plate is a valid idea if you're shooting studio or crewed stuff and transporting the extra weight isn't a problem. But if you're shooting documentary or one-man run and gun type stuff the idea of lugging around an extra 2-3lb in the form of a metal plate just for the sake of balancing your head isn't too attractive.

Got to agree, I would find the metal plate a bit of a bind. I'm just lucky my rig falls inside the designed payload of the VB. As I said in the other thread, if they made it handle 0.5kgs - 5kgs it would've been perfect.

That FSB-8 will be a really good tripod Scott. It's equivalent to the DV6-SB I used to own, which was a very, very good head, so this can only be better. The quality of that Sachtler gear is second to none.

Yeah but now I'm thinking for the price of that Sacthler I could have gotten two Vinten Blue heads and just mounted one head on the the other to get my camera payload above the min. weight.... ;-) As you said though, if they had been able to get the min down to .5kg at that price point the Blue would have been the head to beat for DSLR or other lightweight gear. Maybe Vinten is listening and they'll get it there with the next iteration.

Are we there yet...
(kid in the back seat).

Not quite, Hawaii............
 

Just another couple o' blocks.

The delay is proving exceedingly usefull however.

Why, only yesterday whilst triple checking one particular aspect of a "thing", I made a discovery that sat me back on my heels muttering "You cannot be serious!".

Today I dug a bit deeper and have confirmed not only my previous discovery but also that it will actually allow a shooter to "do" video in blissfull ignorance of the fact that their rig is tilted 2 degrees clockwise to the horizon.

It's such a glaring design fault that, if there is any justice, a certain design engineer and accompaning system tester should both be checking the want ads looking for less demanding areas of employment.

Why not found before?

Very good question and one I have asked myself a couple of times, especially as this fault is built into the system.

It took the right rig, connected to the slide plate in just the right way ("right" takes on an interesting dimension here, it is the way it was designed to be used, not the way anyone would use it, as it simply isn't the right way to use a slide plate with the rig in question) positioned on the head as it had to be in that configuration, and bingo, what the f............?

In other words, a design fault ("feature" in manufacturing speak) in the slide plate led to the discovery of the second fault.

Up to then I had been blissfully bypassing the first fault (noted, yes, used, no) and using the system as it should have been instead of how it is designed.

I believe it is a fairly well documented phenomina, daisy chaining design errors that ultimately lead to total system failure.

I confidantly predict that this little daisy chain, if only discovered after some poor soul had shot three hours of "never again" video, only to discover that the world has a tilt, probably would lead to total system failure, as he ran over it with his 4 X 4. Repeatedly.

I reckon that by the time you read this, a bevvy of designers/ engineers aross the planet have pulled systems off the production lines/ stores trying to figure out who the culprit is.

Hint: put a front heavy camera on the SP using the VHS pin and use it with the front of the SP in the last 2 cmm before the back hits the safety release.

Do I honestly think this fault is enough to stop the production line?

Nope, but it will get people, has to, law of averages says so.

Hang in there guys, the team is getting there, even tho' there's a certain "Groundhog Day" element creeping in lately.


CS

I believe the technical term is "Dutch"

Jhc.......................
 

I nearly barfed up my G&T after about 10 seconds.

Hmm, can't exactly see a great demand for the product, but then it takes all sorts, maybe NASA training for astronauts or Air Force pilot training.

On second thoughts, if it doesn't cost more than a million smackers they won't buy it, so guess that's out.

Unfortunately in my case, er, this case, it's more stuff up than barf up.

And it's no so much Dutch as lower Europe, possibly even somewhere warm like Italy.


CS

OK, back to our regularly scheduled program... Are we there yet now?

Shut up in the back there............
 

"Can't you see I'm driving?"

"Woman, do something about these damn kids!"

Smack

[We apologise for this break in transmission.

Normal service will be resumed when my nose has been re - set].

Test Card.


CS

A Smacka...
 

Oh my God; Soucy's woman is a smacka!

Don't you know that's now against the law in New Zealand old chap? She might get arrested and then where would you be? (Don't answer that)

No no, the smack landed on him. She knows the score.

I know, but he's just a kid, at heart, and according to my bush lawyer friend a smack is a smack no matter who's on the receiving end. And it's no good pretending she was only joking and that really it was just a friendly pat (right on the nose). No, no; she's in trouble...

Chris and Chris, this might delay the results a few weeks, do you think?

Safe, possibly?
 

Geez, John, you've been "off air" for so long I kinda thought, given your advanced state of decrepitude, you'd either done the decent thing and shuffled off this mortal coil (and me having only got half way through the Eulogy too, you inconsiderate sod. I've even got a bit in about the largest, privately owned OB van in the South Island, aka "the Bus") or had checked into an exclusive Mexican Old Folks Home staffed with nothing but nubile PYT's to keep your Zimmer frame skills up to snuff.

What do you do?

Fetch up in some far flung corner of NZ, alive and, presumably, kicking.

So far and so flung indeed, I still have absolutely no idea where it is!

I taught the missus (steady!) a long time ago not to take any cr*p from anyone.

She thought about that lesson for quite some time, then, with a particularly feminine piece of twisted logic, decided she'd start by not taking any from me.

"Be carefull what you wish for" pretty well sums it up.

Good to hear you're still extant.

I can return that Eulogy to the back burner, along with myriad reviews, mountains of stats and the occasional sandwich.

Oh, and those damn kids.


CS

Under my name on the left of the page you are reading you will note I’m in Duvauchelle, Banks Peninsula. ‘Google Earth’ it; I’m living in an extinct (I hope) volcano, and loving it. The landscapes are as varied as they are beautiful, the wildlife plentiful and willing subjects, the people are a bit nutty (and that’s a good thing), the Pacific Ocean as wild and wonderful as always. I’m parked 50 m from high tide, broadband wireless Internet connectivity, with a battery of cameras, both still and video at the ready. Thanks to my EX1 and Alistair Chapman's guidance I have shot some fine time lapse footage, the cloud flows around here are amazing, and of course my keyboard takes a hammering most every day and night. Currently I’m creating a mythology about how wool is produced out here (hobbits and vestal virgins wouldn't you know) and a short film titled ‘Akaroa’ which I should have up at my web site in a couple of weeks.

Other than that...the Mexican nubiles will have to wait as will Saint Pete at the gate.

No, I’m not a frequent contributor at DVINFO but I do visit from time to time. And you just know I’m following your antics with bated breath, and whispring humblenesse as I hone my skepticism.

I do hope Obstreperous is paying you handsomely for your efforts because you know you now have a huge following; there are thousands upon thousands of young aggressive shooters waiting to see if you speak positively about their chosen stiks, and if you don’t, old chap, they will come after you with a vengeance - you will need to chose your words carefully, methinks. Be careful.

Great work, kindest to you and the missus, and if you happen to be in the neighborhood swing by and we’ll tell more lies over a Speights or two.

John, you are so kind...............
 

And sound incredibly content, more power to your elbow, my friend.

Yes, it would be a trifle inconvenient if that volcano suddenly decided to re - do what it, er, they, er, do,er, have done, but I think you're probably pretty safe.

I'm not entirely cool about the following of thousands, not even sure of hundreds, there may be a few as listen to what little I can contribute here, but whatever, I keep plugging away.

I must admit that this thread having screamed past the 10,000 hit mark was a bit of a pleasant suprise, I must be doing something right.

On that subject, a note to a number of previous posters here, discussing weight limits for rigs and camera's.

You guys have wakened a sleeping dragon, much to my relief, and it's getting attention in certain important quarters.

Specifically, the ability or rather, the inability, to counterbalance the new ultra light HD camera's on available support systems.

Now, I'm not going into this here as it''s not germain to this threads purpose, so I have started a new thread next door - ish which will explain everything you want to know about the new and existing light cameras, the existing heads and how they will have to co - exist for the forseeable future.

Anyone interested, mosey on over to:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-s...-any-head.html

Ask questions, make your case and generally give me hell, all grist to the mill.

This is NOT a drill BTW, it's for real. You want to see it happen, hit that thread hard and keep on hitting it.

It's the only way certain people are going to be convinced there is a problem, and there is a doable, sellable answer.

Now, sidetrack over, keep in touch John. Good to hear you've opted for neither the Pearly Gates or the nubile PYT's (look, I would have taken that option if it had been offered!) and don't be a stranger here.

Gentlemen, and of course Ladies, I will go back to my red hot keyboard and totally rooted mouse (new one tomorroww) and keep on with the reviews/ data collection and intravenus Gin drip.

And, before it's asked, no, we ain't there yet, okay?


CS

Follow up...
 

Just wanted to post a quick follow up to my earlier posts regarding the FSB-8. I just finished a weekend shoot with it and all I can say is that it is absolutely phenomenal. The shoot was a lot of quick setups in a lot of different locations (reality TV style) and the FSB-8 performed flawlessly. My bare kit of 5DmkII and 24-105 balances perfectly with the CB set to 1 (even using a shorter 501PL plate in place of the Sachtler plate). With a Zoom H4N and Small HD monitor and a couple of arms and clamps to hold them the FSB-8 balances very well on CB 2. I've got the head on a set of Gitzo 3541XLS CF legs and it's great combo- weighs 9.8lbs together and gives you height from a couple of inches off the ground to over 8 feet. I have to switch out the paddle tie down for the lower profile 100mm bowl tie down though so I can get the tripod down to it's level.

Overall I couldn't be happier with it and I think it's probably one of the best investments I've made in equipment. I just wish it hadn't taken me so long to realize how sweet life is with a quality head :)

Scott,

Do you mount the Small HD and Zoom to the moving portion of the head or the base of the head?

Right now the SmallHD and Zoom dangle precariously off of a hot shoe extension bar (I only mount the Zoom if absolutely necessary). I'm in the process of thinking up a solid but simple mounting solution that doesn't involve a full rig or a ton of extra cr@p to carry around. I'm thinking a baseplate and short rods with two articulating arms for the HD and Zoom. With a quick release plate on that type of rig I could pop my camera on for tripod mounted stuff with monitor and sound and then pop the camera off for handheld photo or video without monitor and sound etc.

I have the DP1x, and only felt comfortable mounting it to the base of the pod. There are pro's and cons to it being stationary.