Track motion madness

[Sam Houchins II]

* Restarted Vegas and this glitch at this spot became correctable with the work-arounds below. Will have to re-render now.*
I've had this problem about 6 times in this project, and have applied work-arounds the other 5.
A track motion point is set at the beginning of an element on the timeline to position the element where I want it on the screen.
But somehow, somewhere in the process, it no longer takes effect at the beginning of the element, but rather on the 2nd frame of the element.
This results in a momentary jump from one location to the next.
Some of the other times I was able to create a new point 2nd frame in, and use it to replace the misbehaving point in the first frame spot.
Some times I've simply shifted the misbehaving point one frame earlier so that it delay-affects the element in its first frame.
This time I can't get either workaround to solve the problem that seems like it shouldn't be there to begin with.
Any ideas why and/or another fix?
1st screen shot is view of the element in the wrong place with the cursor and the motion point set on the 1st frame.
2nd screen shot shows the element in the right place when the cursor is at frame 2, but this is a jump scenario of wrong location to right location.
3rd screen shot shows element still in wrong screen location with cursor at frame 1, even when I try shifting the motion point further away.

[Christopher Young]

Apart from a positional problem you seem to have a sizing issue with the graphic element? Shots #1 and #3 seem to be the same size on the key framed image but in shot #2 the insert image is much wider, bigger? Are you sure there isn't any weird Pan/Crop issue going with the image that is sitting on the Track Motion activated track? Also check you don't have one key frame sitting directly on top of another one. Seen weird behavior with that scenario!

Secondly when I have experienced this sort of behavior, not often, I will totally delete all key frames and start again. Also right click on each key frame diamond and make sure they are all set to 'linear' for their start position. You can adjust their behavior later if required. Another thing is I never try to position anything at the first key frame position. I will set up my position a few frames in and then zoom into the key frame timeline and drag the key frame to my desired start time code which may or may not be the first frame of the clip.

Finally if you are prepared to upload a project .VEG file where this problem is manifesting itself then maybe one of us might be able to try and find out what is happening here. A .VEG with the that one single graphic insert would be helpful in checking it out.

One final thought make sure your 'Quantize to Frames' switch is active because I have seen some odd behavior when the key frame hasn't actually been sitting on an exact frame boundary on the timeline.

Chris Young

[Sam Houchins II]

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

Are you sure there isn't any weird Pan/Crop issue going with the image that is sitting on the Track Motion activated track?

Yes, thank you for that idea. I checked there and it's as it should be. The first frame of the element is cropped, set to hold, and doesn't change until much later. Resizing and relocating of that crop is being done via track motion, changing the track motion setting for this element from an earlier element's settings on that track. The crop settings don't seem to jump like the track motion settings do.

Also check you don't have one key frame sitting directly on top of another one. Seen weird behavior with that scenario!

Yes, I've been stuck in that trap before. In this case I completely deleted and replaced the errant key frame. So I was sure to be starting with nothing and replacing with a single point. Thank you for offering that idea though.

I will set up my position a few frames in and then zoom into the key frame timeline and drag the key frame to my desired start time code which may or may not be the first frame of the clip.

I'll keep that in mind as an alternate workflow to try hereafter, thank you

Finally if you are prepared to upload a project .VEG file where this problem is manifesting itself then maybe one of us might be able to try and find out what is happening here. A .VEG with the that one single graphic insert would be helpful in checking it out.

I'll look for an opportunity to do that, thank you for that invitation.

One final thought make sure your 'Quantize to Frames' switch is active because I have seen some odd behavior when the key frame hasn't actually been sitting on an exact frame boundary on the timeline.

Double checked and it is active - thank you

I appreciate your good ideas!

[Christopher Young]

Hmm! Everything seems to be covered okay. Maybe a VEG file uploaded may prompt some more investigation ideas.

Chris Young.

[Ian Stark]

Could you post a screenshot showing the media properties, Sam? Also the project properties?

[Sam Houchins II]

thank you for asking.
I'm engaged in wild goose chases, so unfortunately it'd be difficult to go back to the media properties of the media I cited earlier, because I'm so far down trails chasing other wild geese.
I appreciate your interest, I'm just several generations away from that right now, and still trying to get this project out the door with more glitches showing up elsewhere.

In general, I'm finding the quickest solution of late that most often works to address these track motion jumps is to drag the key frame a couple of frames ahead of its intended element so that whatever is glitching has time to settle down into place by the frame where I actually need it.

I do thank you for your interest. I'm including a screen shot of the project properties since that's something true for the whole, and not specific to particular elements.
In general, it's all single cam source, single ext audio dubbed, with jpeg and generated media overlays.

[Ian Stark]

No worries, Sam. I was just wondering whether there was a conflict between frame rate and the media that migt be causing the keyframes to jump.

[Sam Houchins II]

a followup observation:
I noticed today that if I try to shift, delete, create/replace a keyframe solely from within the mini timeline within the Track motion window, that I can't shake the timing error. The only solution when solely working there is to place the keyframe before the point that I want it to take effect.

However, if I click on the main edit's timeline directly, positioning the cursor there where I want it, I can then use the add button to drop the keyframe in the Track motion window and have it properly synched with where I wanted it on the timeline.

In other words, if I'm trying to fix a glitched keyframe that's acting like it's half-a-frame off, any subsequent tweaking I do around there on the Track motion's mini timeline stays half-a-frame off too. But if I use the main timeline to establish location, then adding a new Track motion keyframe is spot on. At least in the brief time and few adjustments to overcome glitches discovered in a render.

[Edward Troxel]

Sam, could the event on the timeline be half a frame off?

[Sam Houchins II]

That's an interesting alternative consideration, but haven't noticed anything to indicate such. I haven't noticed any gaps or glitches in the relationships between subsequent events on the same trak, compared with events on other tracks, or synchronizations with the audio;
nor the element's location relationship with previous elements.
It would certainly be hard to spot an overlap changed by 1/2 a frame, but a 1/2 frame gap might be noticed - but I haven't.

[Edward Troxel]

You could try running my Project Inspector plugin on it and see if it detects anything. It installs when you install Excalibur and is free to use. Likewise AutoSave installs with Excalibur and is also free to use.

[Christopher Young]

I mentioned earlier about checking that your 'Quantize to Frames' switch was active which you confirmed was. Even though that may be so it is probably worth checking to make sure everything is 100% on frame boundaries.

The first thing I would do is go into your 'hidden' internal preferences menu and do a search for QUANTIZE. To access that memory you will have to hold down the 'Shift Key' as you select 'Preferences' under the 'Options' menu. You will now find two entries marked FALSE. Change these to TRUE. Then apply and exit the preferences menu. Now if ANY event has an issue re un-quantized ends they will show up with RED frame boundary lines. If you see ANY of these then you are inviting problems with key frames. If you do see red frame boundary ends then the quickest way to fix them is run a 'Quantize to Frames' script. This is not a standard script in the Vegas script menu folder so you will have to drop one into the Script menu in the Vegas install directory. See the images below. After running this Quantize to Frames script it should correct all frame boundaries if any were found.

Maybe, just maybe this could be you problem. I run into this issue all the time on documentary work where we are working in a PAL timeline and very often using 29.97, 30 and 60p material from archive and overseas sources.

Years ago Randall Campbell from Peachrock wrote a great script for fixing frame quantize errors. See the following info:

info@peachrock.com, www.peachrock.com
// © Copyright 2004-2005, Peach Rock Productions, LLC.
// You are free to use or modify this code as long as the copyright information is not removed.
// This software is provided AS IS, no warranty is expressed or implied

I've modified his original script so that it can run on all MAGIX versions of Vegas Pro. Give it a try. You never know it might just be your problem.

Chris Young