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Old November 7th, 2011, 05:03 PM   #226
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Eh? Apart from the equally badly designed F3, name me a recent professional level camera that isn't designed to provide a viewfinder positioned to shoot from the shoulder? (Obviously within a acceptable weight limit).
Disagree... the F3 LCD is much better positioned than the C300 (in that is HAS one) and is a full class ahead in terms of ergonomics. Not great of course, but usable with minimal modification compared to the DSLR.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #227
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
I understand the BBC basically bought the Z1s as SD cameras - they were bought to give true SD 16:9. At the time of purchase, general HD broadcasting seemed a long way off. Expensive programmes (Planet Earth, big dramas) were being made in HD - but not run of the mill stuff.

Apart from getting old, one motive for replacement must have been to get an equivalent type of camera - but HD. Hence the XF305, which ticks all the boxes.
Yes, I know at least some Z1s for BBC commissioned productions only shot miniDV rather than HDV. The PD150 was commonly used before that.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 07:12 PM   #228
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mike Marriage View Post
But Chris, if it was properly modular why is there no VF port (or at least 2nd HDSDI output)?
Actually there *is* a VF port, it is one of the jacks where the monitor / XLR unit plugs in.
See attached pic (click to enlarge). The two jacks at the very top right -- labeled "1 EXT 2"
-- one carries the viewfinder output, the other is the two-channel XLR audio input. Is it a
proprietary connection? I don't know, it probably is. It's definitely an HD output, and it's
definitely not HD-SDI nor is it HDMI. Unfortunately I neglected to get a photo of it, which
was an oversight on my part. I'll try to find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marriage View Post
You are arguing that it should be taken as "a given" that a camera needs two VFs?
I'm saying there are plenty of options available, both included and third-party. The
camera comes with the built-in EVF and also the removable LCD / XLR unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marriage View Post
Apart from the equally badly designed F3, name me a recent professional level camera that isn't designed to provide a viewfinder positioned to shoot from the shoulder?
Clearly, this is *not* a shoulder-mount camera. It certainly isn't designed for hand-held
field production. That's not the market this thing is pointed at. Most of the time it will be
at home on a tripod, a dolly, a jib or a Steadicam -- the four most common mounting
arrangements in film and narrative television production, where a center-line EVF such
as this is either a totally moot issue or it's an asset. If somebody wants to rig it up for
handheld work, that's going to require a shoulder support rig and *maybe* a third-party
EVF, if the included position-anywhere LCD unit isn't desirable. But that's a known
quantity going in.

Also, not everyone will use the HD-SDI jack for an external recorder. Some will be happy
to record the XF codec to Compact Flash, and for them, the HD-SDI jack can be used for
an external HD monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marriage View Post
On a professional cinema camera I expect the design of essentials like the viewfinder to be integral
Mike -- the viewfinder *is* integral. It's just center-line, which you don't like. That's understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marriage View Post
In my opinion that was an error and has led to a number of design flaws.
Well, clearly it's not right for you, but that doesn't necessarily negate it for everybody else.
Canon said they interviewed 150 filmmakers over two years before settling on this design
and feature set. Of course it isn't going to please everybody, but they're going after a
particular niche market with this and they did quite a bit of research.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 01:48 AM   #229
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Disagree... the F3 LCD is much better positioned than the C300 (in that is HAS one) and is a full class ahead in terms of ergonomics. Not great of course, but usable with minimal modification compared to the DSLR.
Dylan, yes the F3's LCD is fine but the viewfinder is a poor design choice.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:13 AM   #230
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Clearly, this is *not* a shoulder-mount camera. It certainly isn't designed for hand-held
field production. That's not the market this thing is pointed at. Most of the time it will be
at home on a tripod, a dolly, a jib or a Steadicam -- the four most common mounting
arrangements in film and narrative television production, where a center-line EVF such
as this is either a totally moot issue or it's an asset. If somebody wants to rig it up for
handheld work, that's going to require a shoulder support rig and *maybe* a third-party
EVF, if the included position-anywhere LCD unit isn't desirable. But that's a known
quantity going in.
Hand held isn't unusual in British TV drama, plus some feature films have quite a lot, Also, I'd expect this camera to be used on documentaries.

Np doubt the 3rd party manufacturers will come up with the goods for shoulder hand held. Although I gather from one former Aaton owner that the C300 isn't bad hand held, just different. I imagine the light weight helps, although looking at it, using the heavier cine prime lens and a matte box could make it rather front heavy. Perhaps not a problem with the Canon EOS lenses, using the WI FI as a remote follow focus.

The advantage of shoulder mounting is that you've got one hand free for adjusting the focus or using other controls. Well, on the traditional film & ENG cameras you have, the double handle job out front is more recent.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:18 AM   #231
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Mike -- the viewfinder *is* integral. It's just center-line, which you don't like. That's understood.

Well, clearly it's not right for you, but that doesn't necessarily negate it for everybody else.
Canon said they interviewed 150 filmmakers over two years before settling on this design
and feature set. Of course it isn't going to please everybody, but they're going after a
particular niche market with this and they did quite a bit of research.
It's not just shoulder mount, how about a high tripod. I'm sorry but handheld is a very common configuration in narrative (a little overused IMO) and should not require 3rd party accessories to achieve it.

The poor design doesn't negate the camera but it means 3rd party workarounds have to be used to correct its faults. It terms of the VF, all it would have taken is to make it detachable and supply an articulated arm and cable as Charles suggests.

They may have researched it but a quick Google search on film and video cameras from the past 50 years would have yielded a more successful design. I can't imagine a professional shooter ever asking for this design unless they had only ever shot on DSLRs... but maybe that's what their benchmark was! Surely the whole point of this "cinema" camera was to escape DSLR form factor?

As a pro who uses cameras everyday, I like my kit to work quickly, easily and reliably. 3rd party workarounds will always hinder that.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 06:30 AM   #232
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Re: C300 Discussion

I found a couple of things interesting, they announced the same day (or nearly) a 4K recordable DSLR in the works, did they mention this at the C300 gathering ? Is there a possibility of a 4k mod on the C300 once they figure it out ? Neither Red nor Canon has mentioned 3D, will this be a trend going forward?
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Old November 8th, 2011, 07:07 AM   #233
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Disagree... the F3 LCD is much better positioned than the C300 (in that is HAS one) and is a full class ahead in terms of ergonomics. Not great of course, but usable with minimal modification compared to the DSLR.
It looks like the C300 (not a great name btw...) can be positioned in many different ways. In regards to ergonomics, it is unlike anything on the market and just from the pictures, I feel this is going to be a pretty well balanced camera for handheld work when used in a stripped down configuration with EF lenses. As much as I dislike the F3 EVF position, it was a good idea to outfit the C300 with a compact EVF on the back.

Best,
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Old November 8th, 2011, 09:06 AM   #234
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
..........

What I prophesy will really end that is a sensor of dimensions 7680x4320 (4x 1920x1080 in each direction), or about 32 megapixel. Reasoning is that it's more than enough for stills, but using the same principle that Canon are using for the C300 it can be very easily directly read for 4k or 1080. (For 4k, exactly how Canon are currently doing with the C300, but scaled up - direct read of 2x2 blocks - and for 1080 just read 4x4 blocks instead.)
It does seem FF35 sensors are about to be made in the 30mp range. I wonder if Canon will do quad 1080p on FF35? Doing it on S35 as non-bayered photosites would make for small photosensors.

I was surprised Canon made the new cine primes to cover FF35. That must add significant cost with no significant use at this times. For IQ I doubt on an S35 sensor there's much difference between the new Cine lenses and the existing EF L series primes. Of course there are usability differences. And for the price the new lenses should be sharper at the corners at open aperture on a large sensor.

The future "C" series DSLR likely won't make the XF codec of use that electronics package. Two different development groups in Canon.

But I don't see how there can be a large market for 4K capture. TV has gone backwards in true resolution, what with Netflix and other forms of net delivery. Is there high data rate 1080p anywhere but broadcast TV? What's the worldwide demand for 4K cameras each year? The apparent fact that there are too many Red Ones in the U.S. rental market is telling.

We're rapidly reaching the point where only consumer demand for higher quality imaging will create a large market for higher res cameras. I see that demand being about zero. Blue Ray is meh, 3D is looking more like a fad. What they seem to want is compelling, well told stories. I hate that :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Parrish View Post
I found a couple of things interesting, they announced the same day (or nearly) a 4K recordable DSLR in the works, did they mention this at the C300 gathering ? Is there a possibility of a 4k mod on the C300 once they figure it out ? Neither Red nor Canon has mentioned 3D, will this be a trend going forward?
It's extremely unlikely that the electronics package in the C300 could do that beyond the SDI out. There's also the question of what sensor size they will use for 4K. They have laid out a different path than Red, going for higher quality capture at lower specs. This plays to Canon's CMOS expertise.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #235
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry Humeau View Post
It looks like the C300 (not a great name btw...) can be positioned in many different ways. In regards to ergonomics, it is unlike anything on the market and just from the pictures, I feel this is going to be a pretty well balanced camera for handheld work when used in a stripped down configuration with EF lenses. As much as I dislike the F3 EVF position, it was a good idea to outfit the C300 with a compact EVF on the back.

Best,

The ergonomics "stripped down" (to say, without any rig/accessories) like any DSLR shaped camera, will be bad for handheld. But maybe we have different references for what's good/bad handheld.

The problem with no LCD on the side means you need to buy/mount one for shoulder rig use, which is extra weight/$1000-$2000. The one on the F3 is in the right position and good enough for shoulder use. No matter how you position the EVF on the C300... it won't make up for this.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #236
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Re: C300 Discussion

Never shot with the F3... but I haven't heard anyone being able to use the side F3 LCD without sliding the cam forward on whatever rig its on. Of course you can just throw a battery further back to rebalance the rig, but I've heard multiple complaints about its position when shoulder mounting. If this isn't the case with new rigs, then all the better obviously.

The thing is.... the main application for this camera I would think is either tripod, steadicam, or shoulder mount. If I am shoulder mounting this cam or an F3, I would highly prefer to position my own monitor anyway and not move the camera around on the rig. The other two applications you need a monitor anyway. If you throw it on a jib its even more a moot point.

Im not nitpicking the camera until I have the chance to shoot with it... which will probably be never since scarlet is only 10k. Not a slam on the C300, i just dont have the cash haha
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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #237
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
The problem with no LCD on the side means you need to buy/mount one for shoulder rig use, which is extra weight/$1000-$2000. The one on the F3 is in the right position and good enough for shoulder use. No matter how you position the EVF on the C300... it won't make up for this.
The C300 has a separate LCD in addition to the EVF. It's actually pretty ingenious IMO. It sits on a control unit that be totally removed and rotated. You can attach it to a far forward or a rear position on the handle in both a horizontal and vertical orientation because there are two standard shoe mounts. If the LCD is positioned at the far forward position and then flipped down and mirroed, it's in perfect position for shoulder mount.

I actually like the EVF position for what it is. It works well when you use the side handle, operating it like a medium format camera with a waist level viewfinder. The side handle is very comfortable. It feels just like an EOS still camera.

Erik Allin from Canon said the EXT 1 and EXT 2 connectors are proprietary, but they plan to release the specifications to accessory manufacturers. So I think it won't be long for someone to come up with something like Abel did to adapt a broadcast VF to the C300. In fact, the mounting will probably be a lot easier. This is coming close to my dream of this Ikegami camera: Sony prototype cinema camera shown at NAB
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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:19 AM   #238
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Re: C300 Discussion

I'd allow rather more than $10k for the Scarlet, in practise more like $14k for a shooting package. The pricing is the same as you'd find with a film camera, the cost of the body then you need the magazines etc,, except in this case it's for a brain instead of the camera body..
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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #239
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
The problem with no LCD on the side
Actually, the LCD / XLR unit included with the C300 can be positioned
on the left side, or wherever you want to put it... see pics below for an
example of a left-side mount, using an arm from RedRock Micro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Le View Post
The C300 has a separate LCD in addition to the EVF.
Sorry I missed you there, Tim!
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C300 Discussion-c300-lcd2.jpg   C300 Discussion-c300-lcd1.jpg  

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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:51 AM   #240
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Re: C300 Discussion

Quote:
I'd allow rather more than $10k for the Scarlet, in practise more like $14k for a shooting package. The pricing is the same as you'd find with a film camera, the cost of the body then you need the magazines etc,, except in this case it's for a brain instead of the camera body.
More like $21K+ once you add an evf, the "basic production (handle) package" to attach it to, and enough media to shoot for an hour. Oh and don't forget a few more batteries to get you through that hour.
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