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Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XH G1S / G1 (with SDI), Canon XH A1S / A1 (without SDI).


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Old June 3rd, 2008, 11:32 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel D. Van Someren View Post
Thanks, Gert.

Actually, it not as basic as one might think. White balancing does not necessarily negate your color settings in the preset. For example if you have your preset set red to +3 and white balance, it may move red to -2 or to +4 in order to produce white. It depends on and is relative to the other color settings in the preset and of course the color of the light. Balancing white doesn't necessarily deminish the affect of the saturation of each color and how it appears individually in the picture. In addition, there are many more settings in a preset than just simple color gain that affect the look of the picture.

When I was working on modifying a preset, I was outdoors. While I was playing aournd, I white balanced the camera and then moved through my 3 favorite presets. I repeated the process but this time white balancing after I switched to each preset...all the while recording to tape. Later, when played back the footage in my NLE, I ended up with 6 different looks. I didn't think about it much then, but if white balancing after switching to the preset negates the settings then the last 3 would have all looked the same. This was by no means a controlled experiment and other stuff happened in between moving through those presets, but I did learn from it. I also tried no w/b and using the outdoor K setting just to see how that looked.

I just happened to find that the preset I was modifying had a more pleasing look (to me) when I used the second method, rather than the first so I continued to modify the preset using that method.

I'm not saying that Canon's method is wrong or that I would never use their method in the future. I'm just using a different method now and happy with it.

This takes me back to my point that it's all about what works to create the look you want.

By the way I did read the article. Very informative. I have worked with video since back when it was black & white on reel-to-reel machines. I'm also familiar with using gels on lighting rigs, etc. and that article brought back some memories of nightmare lighting situations.

I also understand that if I want to capture the colors of a sunset, I'm not gong to white balance. Most of the times, though...I'm not shooting sunsets.

What I've come to find out through the years is that practical application doesn't always equal theory.

I understand your point that Canon said this is how they intended for CPs should be used. I spent hours upon hours playing with the settings on this camera since I got it and I have found that they can be used in other ways as well...and with good results.

I really enjoy the A1's adjustability!

By the way, where is Ens? I was born in Den Haag. (I don't even know if I spelled that right )

In many instances and single locations, it might not necessarily benefit to follow the steps outlined by Canon, because you're right, its your look and whatever pleases you is the right choice.

But what I'm thinking is that if you're doing a longer shoot over many days in several locations, and times of day, then fixing the WB first would be the tool to create consistency, "to make the whites white" BEFORE applying your intended CP look.

But yes, in some instances white balance is not the case. I had to shoot an event where they had yellow gels over all the lights... which means white balancing would ruin how the event really looked.

Not to rehash what's already been talked about, but as I'm about to embark on a two week shoot, I figure that if I'm setting the CP AND THEN white balancing, I can't guarantee that the CP will have the same effect over every location and a lot of color correcting will need to be done in post. (regardless I do color correct, but less is better). Doing the opposite, I figure would bring consistency into the entire shoot.

PS. I really wish I had a calibration system for my monitor. That would be nice.
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Old June 4th, 2008, 06:08 PM   #347
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I don't have a callibrated monitor available right now. But I'm also looking around for a good tool to achieve that. As far as that is possible with my screens....

But there is an other way to do it.
The XH-A1 can make photo's. Those photo's can be stored on the SD card and read out by Photoshop. And because I have a list of all RGB values with the card, I can determain in Photoshop with those photo's if the camera has the right color.

Still, as many people have told me in the mean time: It's also a matter of taste and I doubt I can reproduce an exact copy of the card by making pictures of it.

The custom presets are there for taste and handling your camera in different situations. I think it's impossible to make all recordings 100% like they should be. But, you sertainly can try....like I intend to do. Video is fun an creative and I love the A1's flexibility.

In the mean time I still hope the weather will clear up over here because I want to start on the 2.0 CP movie. The last few days weather was wet and there were lots of thunderstorms. I don't like to be surprised in the middle of the field by one of those.
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Old June 5th, 2008, 12:32 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Postel View Post
...I figure that if I'm setting the CP AND THEN white balancing, I can't guarantee that the CP will have the same effect over every location and a lot of color correcting will need to be done in post. (regardless I do color correct, but less is better). Doing the opposite, I figure would bring consistency into the entire shoot.
I'm not sure that doing the opposite will guarantee anything either. If you consider that you are white balancing relative to the color temperature of reflective light which will surely be different from day to day unless you're in a studio. Therefore if the white foundation that you set your cp against would vary, it stands to reason that there will be some difference in the final picture, as well.

It's kinda like if you go back in time and kill your parents before you were born, then you will never be born so how could you go back in time... lol.

Both scenarios are a bit of a paradox if you as me :)
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Old June 5th, 2008, 02:24 AM   #349
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I'm curious what Canon USA would say about this subject. I know...helpdesks of company's are not that good. I had some experience with them a week ago. All they did was pointing me to sertain parts of the manual.

After a few reply's they finaly started to read my email and answer my question. I may do the same thing with Canon USA, but it would be more logical if a US customer would do that because there is a chance they begin pointing to the Dutch helpdesk....

After all they are the builders of the device. So they should know which paradox you should use.
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Old June 6th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #350
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Panalook2 and White balance

Thank you for the Panalook2 pre. I'v just shot an in service in SD to match up with some footage I shot in 30p cine DVX100.
It looks really good. I should be able to quickly match these up.

PS...
White balance on a card often. Sure it will change the way your pre's look, it supposed to set the camera to a standard "white" so that there is a consistency in your work; unless you want to mess with the colour to create a look in the camera.
All well and good in short scene with controlled lighting. Otherwise things change.
Looks are much easier to "create" in Colour/Post leaving your original footage standardized.
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Old June 11th, 2008, 01:13 AM   #351
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Preset Query

Hey guys,

I'm about to shoot an 8 week sailing documentary with an XH-A1 and but have only have 2 days to play with the camera itself before we set sail. I have shot a lot with Sony Z1u's and V1u's and have only just received the Canon in the mail for this project. It seems by speed reading this forum that few if any of you shoot the camera with it's factory setting. It also seems the consensus thinks the A1 has a red bias. I don't have time to trail a lot of different settings. I want to shoot clean, fairly saturated footage that's not over worked and will be easily manipulated in post. I'm shooting in 1080 60i to cater to all the outlets for this footage (both potential and actual) which include SD Pal, web and NTSC 1080 60i. One more thing, I'm also shooting a HV20 as a second camera and matching the two would be really handy.

It seems Steven Dempsey is a bit of a guru round here. Any advice mate?

Oh and if anyone has any tips for colour balancing at sea that would be nice too.

Cheers
Josh.
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Old June 11th, 2008, 02:50 AM   #352
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Here is your tip of the day.

Shoot the documentary with the Sony Z1, you know the camera and will therefore be able to concentrate on the important thing, i.e. the sailing. The Canon will do an excellent job, but it is one big risk to go on an 8 week assignment with equipment you don't have any experience with.

Good luck
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Old June 11th, 2008, 02:51 AM   #353
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A few tips maybe: USE A GOOD COVER FOR THE WATER! I use one from KATA. Salt and water don't mix with XH-A1 hardware. I will KILL your camera.

About the rest:

Presets: VIVID RGB (Steven) or REALITY (Kees). Both are sharp and give really nice colors.

White balance: automatic on SUN, or depending on the weather: MANUAL
(You don't have much time to do experiments on the boat I presume...)

Set the DAIL on Av or Tv.

And try to make as much recordings with the sun shining on your back. Also don't zoom, walk towards the subject or person. Try to concentrate on the stable picture in stead of the little details.

Apply the rule of 1/3.

Matching with the HV20 is hard, but there is a thread on that subject somewhere on this forum. (Use the search).

Have fun! Don't drop the A1 in the water....

P.S. Get real good ensurance!

And yes....if you are a bit unsure about the whole situation: Use the Z1.
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Old June 11th, 2008, 06:48 AM   #354
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Hey guys,

Thanks for the pointers.

I totally agree with you, shoot the gear you know. I don't have that situation, I have an A1 and I'm going to be shooting an A1. I guess that puts me little in damage control right from the start (not that the Canon is a lesser camera, just my in-experience with it )

Gert, Thanks for your concern. I have a Kata RC14 as well as a EWA marine housing for when it gets really bad. I also have everything in pelican cases with silica desiccant to draw moisture.

Lastly I'm taking my Macbookpro with me so I can review footage as we go. The reason I posted the question is, I would hate to begin in one setting only to discover it was the wrong one half way into it.

By day 10 we'll be on Midway and the potential for stock footage is huge. I need to know I have it nailed but I also want the docu to look consistent.

Cheers guys,
Josh.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 09:34 AM   #355
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Sony HC1 and Canon XH-A1 colour matching

I recently purchased the A-1 and also own a Sony HDR-HC1. I have balanced the HC1 to my Merlin Steadicam finding they make a great combination. I tried the A-1 on the Steadicam but I think it is a little too heavy to be practical so I have resigned myself to using the HC1 only on the Merlin.
Being so new the the Canon I am wondering if anyone has suggestions or comments about using this combination of cameras? I could try to create a preset to emulate the A-1's colour to the HC1 but that seems like "detuning" the better camera to the lesser camera. Alternatively I could do the colour matching in Eduis Broadcast. Obviously this would be more time consuming. I shoot educational doc's (mostly interior shots) and weddings (much exterior stuff).
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Old June 12th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Shaddock View Post
...that seems like "detuning" the better camera to the lesser camera.
But that's the only direction you can go in though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Shaddock View Post
Alternatively I could do the colour matching in Eduis Broadcast. Obviously this would be more time consuming.
You pretty much have to make a decision, as to whether you want to save time by matching the cameras once in pre-production, or whether you want to spend time and match them in post-production.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #357
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I guess my next question is how is it best to develop a preset that matches the HC1?
Thanks
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Old June 12th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #358
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Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Shaddock View Post
I guess my next question is how is it best to develop a preset that matches the HC1?
Thanks
Hook both cameras up to their own identicaly calibrated monitors; use a colour chart or bars from the camera to calibrate the cameras to one another. Or.... throw the hc1 overboard and forget about it :) said with smile...
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Old June 28th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #359
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Is there any chance someone could type out the settings for the Kees REALITY preset. I'm having trouble opening the preset files.

Many thanks,

Mark
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Old June 28th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #360
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Presets

Hey Mark,

Here is a XLS file with all the settings typed out.
If you don't have Microsoft Office, you can use a EXCEL viewer. You can download that program for free. Just Google for 'excel viewer'.

Print it out on paper and you have all 42 presets available right now.
Number 20 is the preset made by Kees.

Good grief,

Gert
Attached Files
File Type: xls Presets.xls (27.5 KB, 1617 views)
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