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Old March 31st, 2011, 12:10 PM   #31
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald Webb View Post
Uhmm, why would you re-interlace if you have de-interlaced?
You would if you wanted to keep the temporal information, i.e. keep it at 50i.

The process and issues are something like this; You have to de-interlace 1080i to 1080p at 50/60 frames a second before resizing, as resizing a field (rather than a complete whole frame) will end up with significantly worse footage.

There are good and bad de-interlacers, if a good job isn't done of de-interlacing this will be magnified several fold in the SD output. Different de-interlacing methods suit different scenes, more sophisticated de-interlaces will try and analysis the scene type and switch methods accordingly, at the cost of taking a long time.

Each frame is then resized down to SD resolution, again there are many ways of doing this, and different methods suit different footage, the better ones take longer of course, see here for a list of all the possible methods supported by [url=http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/ResizeAVISynth[/url]. Usually it is here that most NLE software just uses a rough and ready, but quick resize.

You now have SD but at 50 progressive frames per second, which isn't supported on DVD of course, so you now have to take frame 1 and pull out all the odd lines, then frame 2 and all the even lines and so on, this gets you 50i again. The problem here is these fields are really pseudo fields, they never existing in reality, they don't really mesh together in the way they would have done if captured originally at that resolution and size.

This SD footage is now compressed to MPEG2, further losing some detail and adding artefacts, and then how do we watch it, yep, on a progressive display where it is squished to having non-square pixels and is de-interlaced back up to 50p. The fields basically rattle around inside one another causing loss of resolution, moire and stepping etc

It's interesting regarding Cineform, because that is just a codec, why is that making a difference? Unless the codec is getting HD footage, and is set for SD, which forces it through a resize through a Cineform API before being encoded, and that is a better one than Vegas. It just goes to show its a black art. I'll give it a go and see.

To the OP, make sure in Vegas you have set de-interlacing under properties to Interpolate, blend can give you doubled images.

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Phil
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Old March 31st, 2011, 05:19 PM   #32
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi Guys,
OP back, had some other stuff to do today and had to just stand back from this hd video nightmare and get my head clear as to where I'm going with the problem. Thanks Jeff for all your help, still not sure about Neoscene. Not going to comment on it at the moment, too early, but I will eventually.
And thanks Phill, that was a most interesting post about interlacing, I DID mention interlacing in post #15 and am sure this is where my problem lies. What is strange (to me) is that if I put an MTS file straight from the camera (which is 1080 50i PAL) into DVD Architect and let it render with default settings, I get
acceptable results. (smooth motion). I put the same file into Vegas and render using the Mainconcept MPEG2 CODEC and the DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream Template. (default settings). And when put into Architect and burn to DVD, It looks terrible. See attached! I have had a little success since I started this thread in as much as I now have vegas resizing properly and have tried the blend and interpolated settings and yes the interpolated setting is best but on burning the dvd, when played the motion is not fluid, looks almost strobe like, but no double image when put in freeze frame.
Phill would you care to share your settings or workflow etc.
Would appreciate it!
Regards
Richard
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avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10-mts_architect.jpg   avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10-mts_vegas.jpg  

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Old April 1st, 2011, 01:24 AM   #33
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi

When you say you render from Vegas with "default settings" to MPEG2 are you changing under properties in the advanced section to use Best rendering? If not I don't think Vegas de-interlaces properply.

You also need to check the advanced render settings for Mainconcept MPEG2, make sure it is set for upper field first and 25fps, I'd also up the target/average bit-rate to 9000 for extra quality.

Is DVD Architect re-encoding when you use the footage to make the DVD, you can check this using the "Optimise" option on the wizard as you start the process, it should have a tick against the video to say it is accepted, if it is crossed, DVD Architect goes through the whole render process again. Also for DVD Architect make sure the Project settings are for 25fps and Interlaced upper field first, and not defaulting NTSC type settings.

As for my workflow I'm still experimenting, currently I render out as Lagarith uncompressed RGB 1920x1080 from Sony Vegas then step out of Vegas completely. Using MeGUI and AVISynth (free tools) I compress to HD for Blu-ray, this uses the x264 encoder which is pretty much considered one of the best and it's open source and best of all free. For SD DVD, I've not needed to do many and Vegas has worked okay, nothing odd like double frames but not steller results, but now have a couple to do and back to experimenting, using AVISynth I can use a better de-interlacer and resizing method and so far getting some good results.

Some further reading here might be of interest hdv to dvd.

Regards

Phil
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Old April 1st, 2011, 08:48 AM   #34
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hello Phill,
Yes, went into project properties and set to best rendering. Set the interlace to interpolate. Set everything to upper, 25fps. Bit rate set to 8000 as I thought that was the highest possible for SD DVD.

Your setting for Architect was interesting, I notice the interlacing in Architect was/is set on Auto and recompress was/is set to Off, are you saying interlace should be on to force Architect to interlace and
should recompress be on again to force Architect to recompress.
Of course I will try these setting when I get back into it.
I read in your suggested Link that Procoder 3 is supposed to do an exceptional job. If I was to use Procoder 3, at what stage would I use it. Would I use it to turn all my MTS files into mpg and then edit and
render as normal through vegas.
Your thoughts or experiences please.
Thanks and Regards
Richard
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Old April 1st, 2011, 04:04 PM   #35
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi

Keep all your files native, converting to the final format should be the very last thing you do. DVD will support around 9800 maximum for video bit-rate.

So to sanity check then.

Your source is 1080i/50 video.
Project settings are set to Interpolate for de-interlacing, and set for 1920x1080 upper field first/25fps
You click Render As...
Save as type: MainConcept MPEG2
Click Custom...
You select DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream
Change field order to Upper field first, frame rate is 25
Prioritize quality over speed is checked
Video quality slider up to the maximum
Variable bit rate, max is 9,500,000
Average changed to: 9000
Audio is ticked to include it
Under System, no check in Save as separate elementary streams
Under Project, video rendering quality is Best

*** At this point it is convenient to save these settings ***
Type something in the Template name so you know it's your own template, click the Save icon, now you can just select this directly and have the settings applied.

Click OK, then Save

The output should play okay on your computer and should be used as is by DVD Architect to create a DVD.

Quote:
Procoder 3 is supposed to do an exceptional job
Worth giving it a go if there is a free trial, but you should get fairly acceptable results from Vegas.

Regards

Phil
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Old April 1st, 2011, 06:11 PM   #36
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hello Phill,
That worked perfectly, only thing is, I'm not sure what is different to how I'd set it before.
Apart from two settings and that was the average bit rate, which you put up to 9,000,000,
I had left that to the default 6,500,000? and the BEST setting in the project tab, I missed that one
completely. I'd sussed out the interlacing this afternoon, I'd got rid of the double image during pause,
but wasn't getting smooth motion, I guess it was the average bit rate increase which has cured it.
Doesn't play too well on the computer, as expected. But silky smooth on the DVD.

Now I just have to get a faster computer to speed up rendering and working on the timeline.

So Phill, thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and for saving my sanity,
much appreciated. Hope I will be able to return the favour sometime.

And thanks to all the other posters in this thread, especially Jeff.
Regards
Richard
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 02:46 AM   #37
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi

Good to read you are getting some decent results now.

You can get away a bit more with a lower average setting if you use 2 pass encoding and your footage is a mixture of static and fast scenes, with the benefit of course you can get more on a DVD, with a 9000 average rate you are looking at around an hours footage per single layer disc, and there is little need to wait twice as long for 2 pass encoding at that higher rate.

Personally I find with interlaced footage sourced from HD it just doesn't want to compress that well so you really want to stick to an hour per disc at the higher bit-rate to keep as much quality as you can, otherwise it can struggle.

It's a bit of a learning curve this editing lark that's for sure.

Regards

Phil
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 03:05 AM   #38
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

i never encode at full (9) bit rate since there's a few (older) dvd players out there that just can't handle it - and you never know if your client / audience has one at home ;-(

i've found (and researching through the various groups) that 8.5 is almost indiscernible from 9, and will play on any dvd player.
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 10:36 AM   #39
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi

I know what you mean, depends if this is for personal use or not I guess.

However I've never found a DVD player that can't play these higher rates which lets remember are within specification. Maybe very old/early/failing DVD players that were struggling with recordable DVD-Rs made on early DVD writers might have stuttered on the highest rate but I doubt these are still in use.

Also it is still using VBR so the rate will be dropping below the higher target anyway, giving plenty of time for buffers to fill up.

There may not be much difference between 9000 and 8500 in an instance in time, but you are telling the encoder with VBR it has more available to allocate and doesn't have to be so conservative with allocating the maximum amount of bits over extended periods.

After getting so used to HD, every single bit on SD helps I always think :-)

Regards

Phil
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 10:41 AM   #40
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi Phill,
I will stick with the settings you gave me first time round as I am happy with the results.
I noticed the default bit rate for architect is 8mbs, suitable for almost all DVD players, it says. But
I think DVD Players are better than they used to be. I test all my recorded DVD's in an old
player (Yamada DVD 2500). Cheap and cheerful, but I figure that if it can play them without
problem a high end player should be able to. Having said that, I have a couple of reasonably
expensive DVD recorders and neither of them will look at a re-writeable and the Yamada does.
Technology!
Going back to editing, I've been using Vegas for several years (since sonic foundry had it) and love it to bits. It's the HD stuff that's new to me and was ok with mini dv. I also have an Apple Mac which produced excellent results straight off. But Final Cut Pro compared to Vegas is a Dinosaur, awful to use, so I want to stick with Vegas and try and come to terms with Final Cut pro at a later date.

Regards
Richard
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Old April 5th, 2011, 04:23 PM   #41
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Richard, we were discussing Cineform earlier. Here's a sample collection of clips converted with NeoScene, some 24p mixed in, so they are not properly converted, but still acceptable. They are slowed down to between 50% and 75%. It's basically a one step conversion to avi, then edit and render as needed.

I have not been following this thread but it looks like your problems are solved, that is good.

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Old April 7th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #42
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hi Jeff,
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, This thread has solved my problem and thought we'd finished, just thought I would check back to see if there were any other comments and found you had left one.

Thanks for the link to your video clips all of which are excellent. I still don't get it though Jeff, can you explain the purpose of neoscene, I am getting excellent results now without any third party software, I put the mts file into the timeline, edit and then render for architect to burn to DVD. I'm sure that you have reasons for using Neoscene, so can you explain and give me your workflow. Don't forget I'm using interlaced 1080 PAL footage. Excuse my ignorance regarding this matter, it's all new to me, I'm ok with computers and photoshop. As well,as my HD camcorder I own a Canon 5d mk2 dslr which I can also use for HD video. Have had several MiniDV camcorders in the past all edited with Vegas, so I know my way round vegas, but the HD thing is a totally different ball game. My opinion! :-)

Regards
Richard
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Old April 7th, 2011, 11:00 AM   #43
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Richard, first off, I was posting thinking you were using AVCHD files, which I just saw you were not. So your camera is tape? I really must read more carefully.

If that is the case, then your files should not be a huge deal, and I can't understand, without re-reading everything, why you were having issues. M2T files, if that's what you have, usually work fine to DVD from Vegas, while if not perfect, pretty good.

But anyway, I am using Cineform because cineform process produces exceptional quality. The transcoded files are a zillion times more manageable. I personally run three to four cameras now, and cannot imagine doing a multicamera edit with four lines of avchd files.

I did produce a DVD using avchd files last month without transcoding the files, but what a hassle it was.

Anyway, pros use it for a smooth, high-quality workflow that allows rescaling, interlacing, deinterlacing, or whatever, without having to figure it out in your editing program. You can also use proxies for editing and then render for Bluray as well, if that is your choice.

Anyway, the purpose of my video above was to show that with Cineform, using mixed frame rates, footage slowed down to up to 75%, and not even rescaled properly, which it wasn't, it still held up amazingly well. there were no artifacts, no nothing. If you or I were to try and get those results with Vegas it would have been nearly impossible, or at the least would have been quite a bit of trouble.

Keep in mind there was 1080i 24p and 720p mixed together, so IMO the results were, I thought, mind blowing. If I had waited and rescaled the 1080i properly, it would have looked even better.

Anyway, you are all set and that is the whole point, isn't it?
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Old April 7th, 2011, 05:00 PM   #44
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Hello Jeff,
I seem to have confused you. I am now using AVCHD, I have three AVCHD Cameras, I was just trying to point out that I'm only a novice when dealing with HD, I have in the past used MiniDV cameras and had no problem editing, rendering and authoring. So although I have some experience with video I'm having to ask advice regarding HD processing. Phil has been so good as to share his render settings for HD to SD and for me they work perfectly.

Now back to Neoscene. So what you do is first convert all your AVCHD footage to ??? and then into the vegas timeline. Is the footage still the same resolution? I guess you work in progressive all the time, so no interlacing problems. When you've done the edit, you render out to ??? using ??? settings/template and from there into architect or some other authoring package to BlueRay or SD DVD?

Is that about right?

Do you do the slowmo in vegas or NeoScene.

Regards
Richard
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Old April 7th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #45
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Re: avchd (mts) to SD DVD via vegas pro 10

Richard, for questions about Cineform, I'm a bit new. Condsider looking at the Cineform website or go to the Cineform Showcase forum here at dvinfonet. Also, you have a trial, so if it is of interest to you give it a try.

It seems you are OK now anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.
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