3 channel 36 bit 1280 X 720 low $ camera - Viper?

Régine Weinberg · December 8th, 2004, 03:38 AM

Dear wayne and all the others:

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4887107636.html

that is only on of the board but is has RAID SATA, GIGE Ethernet, LOW power Fanless usb 2, Firewire, Graphics typical VIA stuff, they do have a dual fanless MOBO too and Linux ready and preloded

Wayne Morellini · December 8th, 2004, 11:56 PM

Yes this is the stuff Tim from VIA told me about when I spoke to him months ago. As you can see it is a way to get lots of processing for low power (the extra processor could indeed do image processing much more effectively than a second motherboard). But since the announcement of the faster Pent M's people have gone cold on VIA, but thier 2 GHz cpu's will be coming sometime as well, and from some prices I've seen the top level Pent M stuff seems a lot more expensive.

So what was the speed of the CPU's and what is your assesment of the boards suitability Ron ?

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini · May 25th, 2005, 04:16 AM

For all those still interested in the soon to be released Sumix camera I have posted a new thread, with some updated information.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45081

Forrest Schultz · February 15th, 2006, 10:56 PM

Hi, i would like to talk to Steve Ipp about this. but anyone else who might know please reply.

I was wondering about the web cam you were talking about steve.
http://vgear.com/products/list1.asp?...2&SUB_NUM=2030

it is one like this correct? it can do 1280, 1024 at 15fps. and 640, 480 at 30fps. Thats pretty good for a cheapo. and you said it is about $68 USD
It would be awesome if someone knew how to get 1280, 1024, or even 720 out of it at 30fps. CAN THIS BE DONE? whether it requires the right software, hacking, whatever. can it still be done? I know there a bunch of genius's here. Does anyone know how to get 1024 or 720 at 30fps out of this little cheap camera. it uses USB 2 i mean, messing one up isnt a big hit on the wallet either. Im just wondering if it can be done. becuase i would love to make it work for me. Any help?? thank you so much everyone.

Wayne Morellini · February 16th, 2006, 12:44 PM

I hope Steve replies to this, I would love to hear from him again.

Evey body from the Sensor manufacturer to the camera manufacturers have an interest in making this difficult. So it is either near impossible, or very difficult requiring much expertise. First hunt sensor information down, if they have designed a chip to allow you to do the resolution out at the desired frame rate (probably through windowing and binning) then get programming information from the sensor manufacturer, then from the camera manufacturer. If they won't let you, it might use a systems documented somewhere around the Internet, or by another camera manufacturer. In a rare case a Camera manufacturer might give you hardware design information, but it is probably unlikely. If you don't have any of these things, it is going to be very difficult to reverse engineer the hard ware and software.

If you want to experiment on the cheap, here is a cheap VGA uncompressed RAW Bayer firewire camera based on it's Web camera, for around $119. Make no doubt of it, this is the price a 720p camera could be, but nobody seems interested. They also do cheaper uncompressed web cams. Using pixel shift even these could be made into a hi-res 3 chip camera. The Apple isight is listed, and it would be worth seeing if the newest Apple Isights are hi-res and still uncompressed.

http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059
http://www.unibrain.com/Products/Vis.../Fire_i_BC.htm

http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php
http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee139...ras/search.php

Forrest Schultz · February 16th, 2006, 04:28 PM

Thank you so much Wayne! Your posts are very straight foward and informative. i am really interested in that camera you showed. this one:
http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059

you stated this could be a 720p. and that noone seems to take interest in it or your idea. well i am interesed. I have no doubts of a persons ability when they put their mind to it. and i want to build a high resoution camera out of this. How would i go about getting a 720p frame signal out. i know it does 480p. is it just require the correct computer speed and special software to get that frame size?. or am i gonna have to hack the camera's components, and try some reel-stream type configuration. If i can figure out how to send 720 video out. I can do the rest. Ill build a camera for you guys that kicks some major butt for cheap. But ill need your help Wayne, to figure it all out first.

Wayne Morellini · February 16th, 2006, 06:33 PM

Sorry, I meant that manufacturers should do a 720p camera at that price, but don't want to, the camera is only 640*480, but worth playing around with if your interested. If you want HD, you could get three of them and arrange them in a home made 3chip prism with each pixel shifted, that could be processed into a 1920*1460 HD image. I have been thinking
of doing that for a while (couple of years) but am looking elsewhere. It is probably less technical and hard than hacking most cameras without docs. But probably less easy than if you had all the docs. A monochrome sensor would have to be used for the 3 chip, but you will probably get better results.

To do so, you would have to research prisms, first surface mirrors (very important) and birefringence (is that the word very late) filters (will allow one primary through and reflect the other) optics, chromatic aberrations, and Pixel shift conversion methods. The chromatic aberration results might not be perfect, but your working with low 640*480 resolution so maybe we can get away with it. Yes, the board does 30fps max, no 24/25fps, a hack of the board might be able to change that, but if the timing is locked in the chip, that is a different matter.

there are better sensors but trying to get hold of them at such a cheap price is not funny. You could check out the security cameras, but then you need a high performance analogue video recording device, or computer capture (gets messy). I have a few ideas, but have yet to research for the ideal cost effective sensor.

Now the bad side, yes you could probably do it, but you are probably going to have to carry a laptop or a small boxed computer around (maybe less than 10*10cm*5cm. If it could be reprogrammed to respond to keys and output in a format that a generic external firewire caddy could record then you would have a camera. From what I remember they do have camera that can be synchronised and daisy chained together into three cameras. Interesting isn't it? But this will probably turn out optically not any better than many of low end HD cameras, but it has other advantages. This is not the ideal sensor for this sort of thing, just cheap for experimentation.

If anybody ever wants to talk to me privately about anything on one of my threads, or has any proposals, drop a message in the thread and I can use your email link to email you (I am subscribed to over 215 threads).

Anyway, it is very late and I sense I am starting to talk garbage, so I'll bid you bye.

Thanks

Wayne.

Forrest Schultz · February 16th, 2006, 07:42 PM

Thank you again wayne! i just thought of something that seems like a stretch but it might work. if i use a 35mm adapter. imagine splitting up the image on the ground glass into 4 sections. top-right, top-left,bottom left, bottom right. now, what if i daisy chain the firewire cameras together... explained in their pdf:
http://www.unibrain.com/download/pdf..._Board_New.pdf
and focus each camera on their indivudial section of the glass. then later in post add the images together. is this even remotley possible. i thought of this earlier today at school, becuase ive heard of the idea before.

but i am also interested to learn what you mean by pixel shift, and getting an hd resolution output with only 3 cameras. if i can daisy chain 3 cameras, how do i get that size of image? where do the cameras focus? thank you very much.

Oscar Spierenburg · February 17th, 2006, 06:08 AM

Forrest, I did something like that on my Double cam (or dual cam, never got a word for it) I used two camcorders to film the left and right part of the GG. It works very good, but as you say, it means that you have to stitch everything together in post.
I know someone who is doing something similar as you suggest. A problem is the sync between the cameras.
Besides this, has anyone of you seen the image quality of that HD webcam? Nothing is posted on the site.
Too bad that 15fps is just too little to work with, maybe 18fps with added motionblur or frame blending could even give a film effect, but I guess you can't go any lower than that.

Daniel Rudd · February 17th, 2006, 12:51 PM

It seems like a combination fo cameras could create a low cost solution one of two ways.

1) 4 cheap firewire cameras recording 4 sections of the ground glass simultaneously. Couldn't software sync this properly, then you could create an app to stitch them together into one video file.

2) 2 higher resolution firewire cameras with slower frame-rates. Use software to syncronize them so that they record alternately, doubling the frame rate.

Forrest Schultz · February 17th, 2006, 02:38 PM

i like those ideas alot. especially number 2. now that one seems like it can seriously work.

Régine Weinberg · February 17th, 2006, 03:34 PM

http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/index...=77&a=selectid

1920x1084
resolution 14bit
frame rate 30 fps
IEE 1394b

cheaper as a viper anyway

Forrest Schultz · February 17th, 2006, 03:52 PM

awesome, i can only cringe at the cost though. Wayne, i am going to probally get that fire-i board camera. and focus it onto my GG. If i later want to add more, whats the best way to get more resolution out of it? thanks

Daniel Rudd · February 17th, 2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Biese

http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/index...=77&a=selectid

1920x1084
resolution 14bit
frame rate 30 fps
IEE 1394b

cheaper as a viper anyway

How much is it? I couldn't find any pricing info.

Forrest Schultz · February 17th, 2006, 04:07 PM

we dont even need to check. i can tell that thing is well over $4000 USD. with those kind of features! even industrial cams 1/3 that good are over $3000. i couldnt find any price info either. but i first want to try a cheap solotion. dont get me wrong, if i had the money. id buy that thing in a second

May 25th, 2005, 04:16 AM	#288
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sumix Summary thread For all those still interested in the soon to be released Sumix camera I have posted a new thread, with some updated information. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=45081

February 16th, 2006, 12:44 PM	#290
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I hope Steve replies to this, I would love to hear from him again. Evey body from the Sensor manufacturer to the camera manufacturers have an interest in making this difficult. So it is either near impossible, or very difficult requiring much expertise. First hunt sensor information down, if they have designed a chip to allow you to do the resolution out at the desired frame rate (probably through windowing and binning) then get programming information from the sensor manufacturer, then from the camera manufacturer. If they won't let you, it might use a systems documented somewhere around the Internet, or by another camera manufacturer. In a rare case a Camera manufacturer might give you hardware design information, but it is probably unlikely. If you don't have any of these things, it is going to be very difficult to reverse engineer the hard ware and software. If you want to experiment on the cheap, here is a cheap VGA uncompressed RAW Bayer firewire camera based on it's Web camera, for around $119. Make no doubt of it, this is the price a 720p camera could be, but nobody seems interested. They also do cheaper uncompressed web cams. Using pixel shift even these could be made into a hi-res 3 chip camera. The Apple isight is listed, and it would be worth seeing if the newest Apple Isights are hi-res and still uncompressed. http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059 http://www.unibrain.com/Products/Vis.../Fire_i_BC.htm http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee139...ras/search.php Last edited by Wayne Morellini; February 16th, 2006 at 06:35 PM.

February 17th, 2006, 12:51 PM	#295
Daniel Rudd Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: North Muskegon, MI Posts: 213	multiple cams It seems like a combination fo cameras could create a low cost solution one of two ways. 1) 4 cheap firewire cameras recording 4 sections of the ground glass simultaneously. Couldn't software sync this properly, then you could create an app to stitch them together into one video file. 2) 2 higher resolution firewire cameras with slower frame-rates. Use software to syncronize them so that they record alternately, doubling the frame rate. __________________ Daniel Rudd Digital Storyteller (Sony HDV, Aspect HD) Soundtrack Creation & Royalty Free Music Production www.stock20.com

February 17th, 2006, 03:34 PM	#297
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	maybe http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/index...=77&a=selectid 1920x1084 resolution 14bit frame rate 30 fps IEE 1394b cheaper as a viper anyway

December 8th, 2004, 03:38 AM	#286
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Dear wayne and all the others: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4887107636.html that is only on of the board but is has RAID SATA, GIGE Ethernet, LOW power Fanless usb 2, Firewire, Graphics typical VIA stuff, they do have a dual fanless MOBO too and Linux ready and preloded

December 8th, 2004, 11:56 PM	#287
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes this is the stuff Tim from VIA told me about when I spoke to him months ago. As you can see it is a way to get lots of processing for low power (the extra processor could indeed do image processing much more effectively than a second motherboard). But since the announcement of the faster Pent M's people have gone cold on VIA, but thier 2 GHz cpu's will be coming sometime as well, and from some prices I've seen the top level Pent M stuff seems a lot more expensive. So what was the speed of the CPU's and what is your assesment of the boards suitability Ron ? Wayne.

February 15th, 2006, 10:56 PM	#289
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Hi, i would like to talk to Steve Ipp about this. but anyone else who might know please reply. I was wondering about the web cam you were talking about steve. http://vgear.com/products/list1.asp?...2&SUB_NUM=2030 it is one like this correct? it can do 1280, 1024 at 15fps. and 640, 480 at 30fps. Thats pretty good for a cheapo. and you said it is about $68 USD It would be awesome if someone knew how to get 1280, 1024, or even 720 out of it at 30fps. CAN THIS BE DONE? whether it requires the right software, hacking, whatever. can it still be done? I know there a bunch of genius's here. Does anyone know how to get 1024 or 720 at 30fps out of this little cheap camera. it uses USB 2 i mean, messing one up isnt a big hit on the wallet either. Im just wondering if it can be done. becuase i would love to make it work for me. Any help?? thank you so much everyone.

February 16th, 2006, 04:28 PM	#291
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Thank you so much Wayne! Your posts are very straight foward and informative. i am really interested in that camera you showed. this one: http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059 you stated this could be a 720p. and that noone seems to take interest in it or your idea. well i am interesed. I have no doubts of a persons ability when they put their mind to it. and i want to build a high resoution camera out of this. How would i go about getting a 720p frame signal out. i know it does 480p. is it just require the correct computer speed and special software to get that frame size?. or am i gonna have to hack the camera's components, and try some reel-stream type configuration. If i can figure out how to send 720 video out. I can do the rest. Ill build a camera for you guys that kicks some major butt for cheap. But ill need your help Wayne, to figure it all out first.

February 16th, 2006, 06:33 PM	#292
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sorry, I meant that manufacturers should do a 720p camera at that price, but don't want to, the camera is only 640480, but worth playing around with if your interested. If you want HD, you could get three of them and arrange them in a home made 3chip prism with each pixel shifted, that could be processed into a 19201460 HD image. I have been thinking of doing that for a while (couple of years) but am looking elsewhere. It is probably less technical and hard than hacking most cameras without docs. But probably less easy than if you had all the docs. A monochrome sensor would have to be used for the 3 chip, but you will probably get better results. To do so, you would have to research prisms, first surface mirrors (very important) and birefringence (is that the word very late) filters (will allow one primary through and reflect the other) optics, chromatic aberrations, and Pixel shift conversion methods. The chromatic aberration results might not be perfect, but your working with low 640480 resolution so maybe we can get away with it. Yes, the board does 30fps max, no 24/25fps, a hack of the board might be able to change that, but if the timing is locked in the chip, that is a different matter. there are better sensors but trying to get hold of them at such a cheap price is not funny. You could check out the security cameras, but then you need a high performance analogue video recording device, or computer capture (gets messy). I have a few ideas, but have yet to research for the ideal cost effective sensor. Now the bad side, yes you could probably do it, but you are probably going to have to carry a laptop or a small boxed computer around (maybe less than 1010cm*5cm. If it could be reprogrammed to respond to keys and output in a format that a generic external firewire caddy could record then you would have a camera. From what I remember they do have camera that can be synchronised and daisy chained together into three cameras. Interesting isn't it? But this will probably turn out optically not any better than many of low end HD cameras, but it has other advantages. This is not the ideal sensor for this sort of thing, just cheap for experimentation. If anybody ever wants to talk to me privately about anything on one of my threads, or has any proposals, drop a message in the thread and I can use your email link to email you (I am subscribed to over 215 threads). Anyway, it is very late and I sense I am starting to talk garbage, so I'll bid you bye. Thanks Wayne.

February 16th, 2006, 07:42 PM	#293
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Thank you again wayne! i just thought of something that seems like a stretch but it might work. if i use a 35mm adapter. imagine splitting up the image on the ground glass into 4 sections. top-right, top-left,bottom left, bottom right. now, what if i daisy chain the firewire cameras together... explained in their pdf: http://www.unibrain.com/download/pdf..._Board_New.pdf and focus each camera on their indivudial section of the glass. then later in post add the images together. is this even remotley possible. i thought of this earlier today at school, becuase ive heard of the idea before. but i am also interested to learn what you mean by pixel shift, and getting an hd resolution output with only 3 cameras. if i can daisy chain 3 cameras, how do i get that size of image? where do the cameras focus? thank you very much.

February 17th, 2006, 06:08 AM	#294
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Forrest, I did something like that on my Double cam (or dual cam, never got a word for it) I used two camcorders to film the left and right part of the GG. It works very good, but as you say, it means that you have to stitch everything together in post. I know someone who is doing something similar as you suggest. A problem is the sync between the cameras. Besides this, has anyone of you seen the image quality of that HD webcam? Nothing is posted on the site. Too bad that 15fps is just too little to work with, maybe 18fps with added motionblur or frame blending could even give a film effect, but I guess you can't go any lower than that.

February 17th, 2006, 02:38 PM	#296
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	i like those ideas alot. especially number 2. now that one seems like it can seriously work.

February 17th, 2006, 03:52 PM	#298
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	awesome, i can only cringe at the cost though. Wayne, i am going to probally get that fire-i board camera. and focus it onto my GG. If i later want to add more, whats the best way to get more resolution out of it? thanks

February 17th, 2006, 04:07 PM	#300
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	we dont even need to check. i can tell that thing is well over $4000 USD. with those kind of features! even industrial cams 1/3 that good are over $3000. i couldnt find any price info either. but i first want to try a cheap solotion. dont get me wrong, if i had the money. id buy that thing in a second