The Guerilla device is based on a static element design. It means you'll see static grain across the whole image (at times) and especially any amount of dust in the optical chain will be visible as well. A static adapter is an exercise in Clean Room style discipline. Indeed, you can see some specs of stuff in their (Guerilla35) footage. If it's a still tripod shot though, you probably wouldn't notice. The design is fine for experimenting, proof of concept/ability, and projects that you can risk failure on, but not anything you'd want to hedge a production with an important client on.

Bottom line is a static design is still a powerful tool that can be used to serious creative advantage, but the history on the alt imaging board in general, has evolved to moving element design as being the holy grail. Rightfully so. The Micro35 is based on a moving element design.

I believe the guerilla35's expense comes from precision optics of ground glass.

Heh heh. I don't know about that. And, we are officially off topic now.

Just out of curiosity anyone know if the mini35 is based on static or moving element?

The mini35 is rotating, I thought the micro35 was stationary, but I guess it isn't (according to Barry Green at dvxuser), the agus is rotational and the guerilla35 is stationary.

the mini35 looks like a bouncing ball hitting walls.. its not like a spinning disk like the micro is .. (if you can imgine what im saying)....

no..... no I can't :-P

Think "Spirograph" :)

(well, kind of)

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : Think "Spirograph" :)

(well, kind of) -->>>

haa.. thats a good analogy.. think of the old atari game , PONG... the ball goes from the bottom left to top right and so forth and so on... it dose not turn circular like a cd on a motor...

It's hard to believe that kind of approach would work!

welp thats how the GG spins in the mini.. i have flown it and worked with it several times... "chas" papert can probably back me up on that ... the GG is smaller than the size of a CD ...

ok... visualize the cd on a spindle.. the hole is right in the center so the cd spins circular.. well imagine the center hole is skewed to the left (or rigt) and not on center.. now trhe CD will spin "wobbly".. or off center... this is how the GG in the mini rotates...

does that make sense? i know my terminology is off here.. dammit jim im a cameraman not a scientist... :)

Hmm... the price for the mini35 is still a crime though. Thank goodness there are alternatives.

guides
 

Hi James

do you have any information about the guides?
would be nice to hear somthing from you and you're work
Thank you and thank you for all the work around the micro35.

and can you give me any information about the follow focus
and the mattebox thank you

The spirograph thing does work... Les Dit, and Dan D. and others have built them and discussed them on these pages... You only need to move the image in a circle of a few mm to blur it enough to remove the surface properties.

The way these things work is through the magic of 'eccentrics': Here's a hypothetical example to communicate the concept:

Imagine you've got three pencils stuck into a piece of styrofoam in a triangle. Now you stick three straightpins (like for sewing) into the erasers of the pencils -- straight up and down, but offcenter. For simplicity, say you put the pin very near the edge of the eraser:

Now, you take a piece of mylar film (which will be the ground glass in this case) and put three holes in it for the pins to go through.

NOW... if you rotate the pencils together (using a belt which wraps around them), the tops of the pencils rotate, and makes the pushpins all move in a little tiny circle (a little smaller than the size of the eraser head). Notice that as you do this (in your mind), that the mylar film is also being moved in this same circle.

If there were a hole in the base and the whole thing was on its side, you'd have the basics of how the Mini35 moves its ground glass.

(This is hard to explain without pictures).

Jonathan - you are burying the lead! You have a sweet web site with a lot of great info regarding DOF, building these adapters, etc. I hope you don't mind that I pointed it out!

Jonathon that is one of the best explanations i´ve seen! Just when you said the three pencils, and the needles being offcentre everything came to my mind!

Congratulations!

aw shucks. :) Thanks guys.

On another note: These message boards are worse than CRACK.

yeah - I'm going to have to turn off my email notifications - I'm not getting anything done! :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Brian Valente : Jonathan - you are burying the lead! -->>>

clearly a news guy! ;-)

im glad jon did this analogy.. its exactly how the mini35s' GG looks inside there spinning... and it doesnt spin that fast...

<<<-- Originally posted by Marc Abernathy : <<<-- Originally posted by Brian Valente : Jonathan - you are burying the lead! -->>>

clearly a news guy! ;-)

No, but I guess now I know where that comes from :)

Marc - sounds like you have the mini35. What do you think of it? Anything you really like or dislike?

LOL you could have fooled me!

producers say that line all the time.. lol... amazing..

no sir i do not own a mini cooper...er mini35, but i play one on TV... ok.. let me stop... its early (or late depending on where you are and how you see the glass as being half full or empty... ;) ) ..

there is a guy here in atlanta who has one. i dont have any other reference to another adapter so i cant say if its good or bad, but it does do the job great! the shots i get out of that DVX100A camcorder are awesome!! the DOF is something to drool over.. it uses a regular camcorder batery and its simple to connect to the DVX. sometimes the 1st has to play with the backfocus to get it right but once its there (usually 5 minutes extra to do this on average) its set and forget.

last project i used it on we had some cooke primes.......... those shots were yummy!! we had studio follow focus on it and changing lenses was a snap!

i know what the adapter can accomplish and thats why im very excited to get my grubby paws on james' unit!! to be able to get those shots for way less money than the P & S adapter is very exciting!

good to know - I didn't know you could play with the backfocus on the dvx. how do you do this?

...and I guess the second question is how did you know you had to play with backfocus?

by backfocus i mean they either "zoom in" or "zoom out" to get the proper focus. i used the backfocus term loosley, sorry.

"Ol were ol, were are the manuals"
 

I'm so glad I kept my money for the manual... Why you ask... Because its 3 months late and I have purchased 398 diapers and counting and have a quite baby during this 3 month! But I still have this deep question of "Ol were ol, were are the manuals"

Sorry to be brash but the G25 pisses all over the mirco. I'd be willing to spend a grand on there product just from the fottage have seen. It has atually given me and insight to what i could film.

Rabi - How can you make that comparison when the micro35 hasn't been released? Have you seen a preview? Maybe you can shed more light on it for us

The thing is though, that g35 has been promising all kinds of stuff (photos, prices, release dates and more sample footage without vignetting.) No goods have been delivered yet.

I'll stick with the 45$ micro.

is this about the guerilla35?? If so, you're right. you _are_ brash to make that statement, since they have not yet pubicly shown one picture of it in action. By what criteria are you using to judge these differences? Have you seen the sample footage at micro35.com?

Promising all kinds of stuff
 

But doesn’t the Micro 35 Promise all the same stuff you are saying about the G35? But with the Micro35 they also don't deliver? Let’s see... Feb 1st is not even close for the release for a manual 2 ½ months late... The price went up for the manual... the footage on the web site was shot with "The old GG" so we've still not seen the "Good GG" footage... You might expect with all the supposed people beta testing we could see some kind of footage update... The update section hasn't been updated since 02/21/05 and the latest pictures are so freaking dark you would have to honestly wonder if the photographer had the lens cap on when shooting... At least the G35 hasn't taken peoples money and drawn interest in the bank while the customer has NOT EVEN SEEN AN UPDATE. And considering I was born in TX and lived there 35 years "Waco, Austin, Dallas" I would have to consider the Micro35 ands it’s makers are lacking the integrity for a business… And as they say back home “PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING” So where is the pudding? And yes If I don’t make to many people mad at me, then I will still order a manual if they ever come out.

Re: Promising all kinds of stuff
 

Craig, where are you coming from in all this?

<<<price went up for the manual>>
Are you seriously saying $45 including the gg is a concern?? Go price just the gg from arri.

<<<the footage on the web site was shot with "The old GG">>>

Are you saying that footage is not acceptable? Looks pretty damn good to me. Even if the new gg is the same quality (unlikely) I'd still buy it.

<<<the latest pictures are so freaking dark you would have to honestly wonder if the photographer had the lens cap on when shooting>>>

apparently you didn't bother reading Larry's comments regarding the _intent_ of the shoot and the other production considerations that required them to shoot dark. Refer back to the original samples.

<<<And as they say back home “PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING” -->>>

Sounds good - let's compare the _proof_ so far.

micro35 (even with old gg, it's damn good):

http://www.micro35.com/micro35.wmv
http://www.micro35.com/micro35tests.wmv


Please post back where we can see the G35 sample footage

Things are getting a little heated here.


What's being argued over is kind of stupid. "The system I support is better!" "No mine is!"

I believe both systems are going to work well, we just have to be patient for both of them to come out.
You guys have to realize that the people who are making these products (James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money, and their goal is to make affordable systems. I can excuse the lateness of the products because I am confident that both will deliver. I don't think some of us are patient enough. The best thing to do is wait.

I do agree though, that at times, things can be frusterating just waiting without updates. Hell, I've been pushing back my production for several short films and music videos so I can shoot them in micro35, but I am not about to go pointing fingers and lose faith.


Perhaps this argument should be dropped.

"...(James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money"


It would appear that James(micro) has money other than his own from the manuals, no? ..and Jonathan... well, I actually volunteered a couple of weeks ago to Beta test and inquired about investing in his project, but have heard not one reply from him.


My take on all this has been that there is nothing unscrupulous happening, it's just what happens when projects are managed by people not familiar with... Project Management! (though James now 'appears' to be working with some people who 'should' know better)

"..and Jonathan..."

Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :)

agreed. I applaud everyone who is putting in the effort to push these forward, often in their own free time. I think personal attacks aren't appropriate, though I know we are all feeling anxious to get these into our hands.

Brian
 

GG Question... No one as far as I'm concerned has said or shown that this glass is as good as arri... From my understanding it's a sticker that has been mentioned. Basically frosted window tint, $4.00 including installation on the CD with no bubbles…And now given away with a late manual. The footage looks good I agree, even the circular patterns on the horses head... and that's not bad compression because I do compression every day... Yes it's hard to wait but also when someone mentions another item like the G35, One need’s to look at what they are representing as well... In this case is the Micro35 and all that I have mentioned… As in these post, people are delaying projects, which in-turn cost them further money while waiting on a product which shows promise, but as of now little proof…I’m glad that this is going to be a good product when it’s out. And hope it’s out before summer gets here. Other wise it’s hard to shoot in 3ft of snow…

The G35 is a static adapter. I don't think it can possibly provide the best image. The P+S Mini35 is well known as the King in "this" world. It's based on a moving element. The Micro35 is also based on a moving element. And the G35 is not. The best thing I can say about the G35 is that they are trying to commercialize a nice static design device. For me, however, I've already built my own. That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device. The G35 is taking the path more easily traveled, and I'm sure they'll hear about it from people who grow frustrated with the infamous "grain".


Regarding the time delays on the Micro35. It definitely makes me bad mouth and diss and shout. But ultimately, there's a whole difficult story only James knows, and the only rational thing for me to do about my $50 spent on a guide is say.. whatever. It'll be what it is when it can be.

Craig - I wasn't suggesting the gg is the quality of arri (I wish), only that the price-points for all these projects are ridiculously low compared with the "standard alternatives". I cannot speak authoritatively regarding the quality of the gg, but I have developed the impression the micro35 guide's gg is more than just a cheap CD covering with good application. I think it's true ground glass. But James would have to verify that.

<<<That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device>>>

That's what I'm waiting for as well, and why I think the micro35, when it comes, will be worth it. We should all be encouraging James and helping him.

Cheers

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : "..and Jonathan..."

Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :) -->>>


The Jonathan I was referring to was from the G35 project:

http://www.guerilla35.com/talk/viewforum.php?f=1

or

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=23835&highlight=G35

Relax-take pill
 

I seldom post, but I will now.

Look- I ponied up for the guide, too. Would I like it and a finished kit, pre-assembled NOW for XL? Of course. I must point out, though, that I've been following the many threads related to spinning and oscillating GG/micro fresnel screens in a sort of modified modern camera obscura for awhile. Quite awhile. I haven't spent the doubtless HUGE number of hours that the people really trying to develop this have. Neither have most of the people whining about, oh, I don't know, dead cats. When the micro35 is ready, I'll be as close as I can get to the front end of the line. I need DOF like I need sunshine. But. I only know that when people don't bother to read through the myriad posts on this subject (and related ones), they take more of the time needed to actually make this work to answer the same queries repeatedly.

Give James some slack.

I also know that I have a particular project coming up this summer that I realy need one of the camera packages to have DOF. It's important enough to me (and the client) that I'll bite the bullet and rent a mini35 setup that I simply can't afford to buy, if I must. Those people raising the stress level based on their next project need to take stock of the whole situation. Christ! It's not as if there's some news about the nature of images natively produced on CCDs, is there? Film and cine lenses produce known quantities, too. Maybe a little upgrade in your lighting would give you some nicer shots, I don't know.

Selfishly, I don't want James to be stressed as he works out the particulars for the XL version sporting PL and Nikkor F mounts. I'm sure others want care on their respective types.

Rant over. Now, commmence yelling at me, and don't yell at James.