I have posted two grabs of the tennis clip a couple of posts before.

Speculating further on the OIS thing, I must admit when I first read it has just ON/OFF settings (rather than the Standard, Soft, Hard etc) I thought Sony was compromising on this for whatever reason - now we can guess the 77mm lens might be just too tight for 1/2" chips...

If this is true, I wonder what Sony is going to do about it. And how long we'll be waiting!

But nobody ever answered my question: does it also show without the lens hood attached? If it's the lens hood vignetting, setting up the new moulding for a bigger one could be the simplest solution! Much simpler than designing a whole new, 82mm lens...

now we can guess the 77mm lens might be just too tight for 1/2" chips...

If this is true, I wonder what Sony is going to do about it. And how long we'll be waiting!

If this turns out to be the case, it could mean a VERY long wait, right? Surely they won't just tell us to deal with it?

There was a lot of controversy over the 25p capability of the V1 in PAL countries at this time last year and we were told to more or less deal with it.

I hope Sony really, truly fixes this to the best outcome.

There aren't enough users with cameras out there to test if there really is an actual problem.

Although I still don't have mine, I am hoping to have some free time on Monday to go to my dealer and really put their demo unit through a thorough test, including 35mm adaptor test.

Perhaps we could hear from all the EX1 owners out there if they have come across it or not...

But nobody ever answered my question: does it also show without the lens hood attached?

Hi Piotr, I tried removing the lens hood assembly / matte box and it makes no difference, it's not that.

I don't know enough about the way lenses function to fully understand what this problem involves, my guess is that it's more than just making the lens barrel wider though. I would have thought that lens element placement / shape will be the primary control over presenting a correct image to the sensor block, either that or the distance between the lens and the sensor block itself. I guess this could be solved by enlarging the visible area presented to the sensors with optic placement, I can't imagine Sony would go back to fujinon and ask for a bigger lens though.

Adam Wilt mentions in his review that he was told by Sony that the vignetting in the camera he tested was caused by the auto-focus system, as that's the only real comment we've heard about the problem that comes directly from Sony it's more likely that this is still the issue, and we still don't know if there really is an issue. It would be great to to hear from other owners, but we only know of four cameras delivered so far.

regards

Paul.

I have yet to see anything posted other than Paul's camera that actually "really" shows a vignetting problem. I've seen nothing convincing
from the tennis footage and the guy that owns the camera has never mentioned a problem.
Several days ago I asked him when he gets a chance to run the test.
He said he would when he finds the time.

My guess is there might be a mechanical adjustment that might be out of spec within Paul's camera.
I can't imagine Sony would of let a problem like this released. This is a defect, or a misadjustment.
IMO, this problem is not across all EX1 cameras.

Possible, but can you provide the actual frame grabs. This type of info really doesn't mean much to anyone without supporting it.

I tried to get screen grabs, but I can't go frame by frame in the VLC player. I couldn't get enough control to grab frames that would show the problem. I viewed the video in slow motion on a High Def LCD TV, and you can see the shadow creep in and out of the image as the camera accelerates and decelerates through a left to right pan. I'm hoping that someone will run some tests with their EX1 and post the tests here.

If this is a genuine case of the image rectangle being bigger than the image circle from which it's cut, then when OIS is turned on and the camera is moving this will make the situation worse - a lot worse. Could be worth going down the timeline of a rapidly moving camera shot and seeing if the vignette worsens.

tom.

Well, rest assure I will test for this the first day I get it (end of next week).
I will also rapidly pan the cam while viewing a wall with no other stuctures using OIS on, and off. I'll try it at four different focal lengths, from wide to tele.

I'm still not seeing anything convincing in the tennis footage. Also, the few that do own the camera on this forum, other than paul, have not mentioned any issues.

i see it on the tennis footages, upper left and right corner:

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=delaroziere&templatefn=FileSharing3.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.3.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

I tried to get screen grabs, but I can't go frame by frame in the VLC player. I couldn't get enough control to grab frames that would show the problem. I viewed the video in slow motion on a High Def LCD TV, and you can see the shadow creep in and out of the image as the camera accelerates and decelerates through a left to right pan. I'm hoping that someone will run some tests with their EX1 and post the tests here.

I have checked the fastest, whip pans of the tennis footage, and indeed there is what can be considered similar to Paul's findings, in the upper left corner of the screen - see my post here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=780036&postcount=51

If anything, it does appear there is some vignetting in Laurent's example. Since the camera was not really moving during this shot, it would of been nice if he actually performed some simple tests for us.

I'm not sure why he would not. If I owned the camera, I'd surely want to know its limitations.

Well, we'll know soon for sure.

Hmmmm.....
Maybe we have an issue with these cams that's more than just a couple.
I'm now concerned. Hopefully they can be fixed. I find it VERY hard to believe that a camera that cost almost $7,000.00 USD would have this issue. Heck, I've seen camcorders that cost $300 not have this issue.


Check it out..
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=11627&page=2

It appears from one of the original frame grab posts from a pre-production models is showing some vignetting in the top left corner.... hmmmm.
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/xdcamex/Wakeboarding%20720p25.tix

Thanks Chris,
I'm not sure why he was hesitant with your offer.

Since he lost his host, maybe he'll change his mind

Well thats not going to happen. I have my reasons for it.

And to all people mirroring my files, I wold appreciate if you ask me first but the answer will probably be, no please don't.

But to make you happier again I have put up some Vignette test shots. And I have new hosting, so get them while they last. This is supposed to be a free traffic host again but we will have to see about that since the demand for the other files was a bit crazy.

The old files may be online soon if I have time to do it. The Tennis footage will not be online again and there is a reason for it to.

ex.bolanski.com

Andreas - I had a look at the 1080p-version and I cannot see any problems. If there are any they are definately acceptable to me! Do you know if this was the same camera that you used shooting the tennis footage? Someone reported a few frames with vignetting suggesting that it might be related to the OIS.

/ola

It appears from one of the original frame grab posts from a pre-production models is showing some vignetting in the top left corner.... hmmmm.
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/xdcamex/Wakeboarding%20720p25.tix

Heck, looks like you are right! It shows exactly the same flaw!

Yes, then again, it was the pre-production cam.
Looking at Andreas vignette test files posted today, I do not see any issues.
It would of also been nice if there tests files done the same way while the camera was panned (Aperture wide open, OIS on). Also, I'm not sure where the aperture was set during his tests.

Having said that, he owns the cameras and says he's not seeing an issue.
That's good enough for me. I will do some tests with my cam next week and post them here.

(I posted this on the footage thread but thought it was more appropriate for this thread instead, so pardon the double posting)

About 4 to 5 seconds into Andreas' 1080p25 clip there is a very slight darkening in the upper left corner. Likewise in the 720 clip (which zooms out rather than in) there is the same slight darkening toward the wide side.

Both of these seem to happen at the same focal length on the lens. It seems to be a less severe version of what Paul Joy is describing, in that it does not happen at either zoom extreme, but at a point in the middle, close to the wide side.

This slight darkening, combined with OIS and different aperture or focus settings could be what's cousing the more extreme cases.

What's happening on Andreas' camera is perfectly acceptable to me, and I won't cancel my order over it. On a film camera this would be considered within spec (I've seen much worse than that make it to the big screen). But if it got much more extreme than that I would start to get concerned.

Are people seeing the vignette problem when using OIS while on a tripod?

With my Z1, I get much better footage when the OIS is turned off while on a tripod. In fact the manual states to turn of OIS while on a tripod.

Has anyone tried shooting without the OIS and seeing if the problem still exists?

Daniel Weber

Andreas - I had a look at the 1080p-version and I cannot see any problems. If there are any they are definately acceptable to me! Do you know if this was the same camera that you used shooting the tennis footage? Someone reported a few frames with vignetting suggesting that it might be related to the OIS.

/ola

I don't know what camera this was but I can check. When I look at it on a computer screen I don't see it but when I look at it via HD-SDI on our 24" Jvc monitor I think there might be something there.

It's really hard to tell but we are quite happy with the cameras and are going to use them in education so we don't see this as a problem for us.

Thanks for posting your test shots. They look very good. If the issue is due to OIS then it is not an issue to me; I never use OIS. Do you remember if you used OIS on the Tennis shots? Thanks again for spending the time to educate us.

Thanks for posting your test shots. They look very good. If the issue is due to OIS then it is not an issue to me; I never use OIS. Do you remember if you used OIS on the Tennis shots? Thanks again for spending the time to educate us.

For event work it would be a huge issue. I'm hand held all the time at weddings and the OIS has saved my butt may a time.

Also, is OIS recommended for steadicam work? Or is it recommended to leave it off?

I can't see why it has anything to do with OIS. The white wall zoom in shot posted above wouldn't give any information to the OIS system to cause problem this would it? It's gyroscopic correction isn't it?

It looks to my eyes like they tried to tweak a lens designed to work well with 1/3 inch chips on this, and it's just on the edge of acceptability for some. It seems that as the elements are moving around in the lens it's just hitting thresholds of vignetting.

Personally, I don't think I wouldn't find this a dealbreaker on real world pictures of normal subject matter. Also taking safe areas into account when working in broadcast. Web video and DVDs shown on LCDs could have an issue.

It's actually the case that I add vignette quite often, having a lens which already does it is a little odd.

OIS does indeed add greatly to the vignetting when it's working, and it's easily shown with a lot of wide-angle converters. I have a widie that that just clips about 4 pixels off the top corners of the frame. With OIS turned on and the camera panned quickly the vignetting is much more apparent.

Under water housings show the same thing - no vignetting while stationary, but quite noticeable when OIS is on and the camera's moving.

tom.

Just got my camera and it also vignettes at about 10mm.

Top corners, both left and right side simultaneously.

I am beginning to think this is inherent in the camera's design.

NOT GOOD NEWS!

There's been a couple cameras here that have not had this issue.
How bad is it?
Please provide a short clip.

I'm going to be bummed if my camera which I receive tomorrow has this issue!

My believe is there is an adjustment for this that Sony is NOT doing a good job making sure
this issue does not appear. Out of the four reported owners here, including yourself, two
have reported vignetting.

I just did a test on a blank wall, in focus and it's *very* slight, but it's there.

Focus was close, near minimum (not macro).

I shot some test footage earlier with deeper focus and it was more pronounced. In both cases OIS was on.

I'll investigate more.

OK, very slight sounds better than Paul's camera where it's very obvious.

Here's what I found through a couple of quick tests:

Vignetting is worse at wider stops. This leads me to believe that this is something happening internally near the iris.

Vignetting is worse at deep focus.

Normally, vignetting caused in front of the lens (by filter or matte box obstruction, for example) is usually worse at tighter stops and shallower focus because the obstructing object is made sharper and more visible. Also, lenses technically get a bit wider at close focus a more creeps into frame. Pretty much the opposite is happening here.

I am awaiting permission to post attachments and I will put some stills up.

Eric,

Whose permission do you need?

Also, do you plan on returning, or living with this issue.
If it were mine, knowing that there are owners such as Chris who do not have vignetting problems, I'm not sure If I would keep it.

I guess that would depend on how bad it is and how easy it can be avoided.

I guess I need Chris' permission. It says I "may not post attachments."

I will not return the camera because of it. I will hope for a fix, but it's not a deal breaker.

Eric,

Is the problem evident in macro? If so, at what stops? I plan on using the camera with a redrock M2 35mm adapter. thanks

vince

Testing my camera right now.
NO vignetting issue whatsoever. Using 1920x1080 24" external monitor. Tried all different combos including focus distance which one owner mention it was worse when closer to infinite. Well, I tried every possibility. Not the slightest vignetting.

My jaw hit the ground with the sensitivity. For those who question this, be prepared to be "blown away" with how fast this thing is. It made my room with natural light peaking through with the blinds almost closed, look far brighter than what my eyes were seeing with no noise! Unreal.

So far. very positive. Although the component outputs are near the bottom right. I had to take it off the tripod to access them.

Eric, you mentioned that you are having vignetting issues with the OIS on. You haven't mentioned yet if it improves when the OIS is off. Could you check to see if the effect is worse due to the OIS?

Steven,

Does your monitor have any cutoff on the sides? Is it underscanned?

Try capturing some footage and watch it in an NLE, where you can see the whole frame, just to be sure.

I guess I need Chris' permission. It says I "may not post attachments."Per my email to you, I thought I fixed this -- you may need to log out and back in again -- if you don't see a "manage attachments" button below the text input area when making a reply, please let me know by email. It may have something to do with forum permissions in that case.

Here are two full size grabs.

The soft one is deep focus, the sharp one is close focus.

Don't be alarmed by the noise - I had gain maxed and the 6-stop ND filter on to home in on a good wide-open exposure.

Chris - permissions are working (apparently). Thanks.

Here are two full size grabs.

The soft one is deep focus, the sharp one is close focus.

Don't be alarmed by the noise - I had gain maxed and the 6-stop ND filter on to home in on a good wide-open exposure.

It beats me how something like this could have passed the QC.

Eric, judging from those stills it also exhibits a blueish hue on the right side. It though I saw that on Paul Joy's shots although it was on the left.

Try OIS off.
I thought Adam Wilt believe the issue was related to the focus mechanism rather than OIS.

Eric you are right, my monitor is underscanned. Not by much though, not as much as the safe area on the EX1 LCD outlines. At least using the component inputs. Although the camera's LCD is small, I see no issues. I will capture a test soon.

Eric, you examples are not as bad compared to Paul's.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=5192&d=1195761898

I wonder if this issue is similar to the inconsistency we found in the HVX imaging blocks not always being centered on the lens. This didn't show up until we started focusing in on 35mm adapters on the HVX.
In the Panny case it sounds like it was due to manufacturing tolerances not being strict enough. Similar issue perhaps?

OK...
Here's the deal.
I've got it... vignetting
Now I'm wondering if they all have it and some are not looking hard enough for it.
Hmm...
Is it bad enough to return, will it effect normal shots, it's hard to say.
I know one thing, Sony is going to have their "ear full" on this one.
This should of NEVER left QC!

Sorry to see you've got the same problem guys, I really hoped mine was a one off . Please let us know how you get on if you go the Sony support route, I'm interested to know if Sony are going to fix it or just decide that it's within tolerances.

what a shame!

Paul.

Thanks Paul.
Good question.
I'm not sure if I want to give the camera up.
When they figure out how to address this situation.
I will send it to them.
It's now aparent, you just can't order another camera.
I believe the percentage pf cams with an issue here are probably 75%.
I have a feeling it may be higher as everyone gets theirs.

Here's a quick look at my vignetting.
Please overlook focus and white balance. I was focus at a far distance near the end.
Also, to make the vignetting more obvious, I only reduced the image brightness.
It only happens between 10mm - 25mm.

Yours doesn't look so bad Steven, it seems the sensors are biased to the right side and hence only showing the effect on the right. Eric's on the other hand looks almost as bad as the one I had.

In both cases the OIS will definitely make it worse, I looked over some of the hand held footage I shot and I can see the vignetting moving around in the corners.

bad QC or bad design ? ...in your opinion ?

I didn't go through this entire thread but has anyone talked to Sony about this yet? Has there been a response?

I don't have one to play with, and I hate to toss in an idea where I can't test it myself but...

my question is... could this be sensor heat noise??

The way I check the Canon 1Ds is to just put the cam on a tri-pod, open the shutter for a couple minutes with the lens cap on and let the camera take a picture... The picture comes out as black and if the camera suffers from
thermal noise the noise shows up as a purple vignett where the sensor is
suffering from heat....

If the sensor is OK then the picture just stays as black .....

Just maybe a test needs to be done on the EX1 to make sure its not thermal
related...

might even slightly warm the camera up with a hair dryer from about a foot away from the camera during the test??

I captured it after the camera was only on for two minutes.
I don't believe it is due to heat.