That's outstanding! When I had a problem with the viewfinder going dead on my Z1U (which happens to be your Z1U Chris ;), Sony was prompt in taking care of it.

That's good news.

What surprises me was the statement "very small percentage".
Having read that, It seems odd most of us who received their cameras and are members of this forum have the vignette problem.

Based on this fact, the percentage is a LOT higher than stated. Either that or we all are very unlucky ;)

I think the forum is a 'self selecting sampling' as they say in statistical analysis. Probably not indicative of the 'general' overall market. Having said that, I suspect the choice not to use an actual number concerning the percentage of faulty lenses is also telling.

Good on Sony for owning up and offering a solution.

And even one (or more) of those who don't have the camera but checked their dealer's camera saw the issue too.

I think there's a fine line between managing Public Relations and Credibility but I'll make no further comment on that.

One doesn't know how such "percentage" is being measured though. No sense in speculating there either.

One can say the issue stretched across shipments to several countries/continents.

... If your camcorder exhibits the symptom described please call our Product

Operational Support Center at 1-800-883-6817, option 2-5-2 for advice on how to proceed."

I just called to check on the procedure to get the camera repaired and was told they were still awaiting official word on the issue and the actual procedure to get the camera to their facility for the repair. Should be a couple of days before this happens...

I started another thread about a fix that a dealer told me. I'm not sure it will work, but I will give it a try. It might be that this fix, using the hidden Maintenance menu, is the "10 minute adjustment" mentioned in this thread. Then again, it might not.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=792473#post792473

Good grief people. Who cares how many it is. Is there a reason Sony needs to tell you how many units?

The important part is they are aware, they have a fix, and are getting set up to perform the work on the cameras.

Problem found, problem recognized, problem solved

Isn't that all that really matters?

K

Good grief people. Who cares how many it is.



LOL...
Spoken from someone who does not own one. ;)

Hmmm...
Who cares, let's see.....
Anyone who owns one and has the problem. Sony WANTS to know how many have the issue. They need to determine if it's a broken or defective unit opposed to being a problem across all current initial released units.

According to the person I spoke to at Sony, they're hearing it's world wide.
Take a look at how many who have read this thread alone. Something over 23,000. There might be some interest.

The reason to care how many are affected, and whether or not Sony is being upfront with that, is to determine the business model that Sony operates under. And yes, that is important to many people.

There is a difference between the following scenarios.

A problem is discovered, and a company hides/denies it
A problem is discovered, and company only admits it to those who discover it.
A problem is discovered, the company downplays it in the press, in order to supress the number of people LOOKING for the problem, and therefore limit their liability.
A problem is discovered, and the company moves agressively to recall the product and offers to fix it for free.
A problem is discovered BY THE COMPANY immediately after shipping, and all deliveries are halted untill such time as all products may be recalled for testing.

And any number of variations on the above scenarios. Each of these represents a different cost/benefit in terms of capital and REPUTATION. How a company handles these sorts of develpments means a lot to those who intend to do business with that company in the future. This is true of cameras, cars, toys... whatever.

So yes, people really do care what the actual extent of the issue is, VS how Sony characterizes it and deals with it.

I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Not A+ mind you... but pretty good.

I think the forum is a 'self selecting sampling' as they say in statistical analysis. Probably not indicative of the 'general' overall market. Absolutely right, and often overlooked among forum "regulars," especially those who post on numerous sites. DV Info Net is indeed the home of the single largest XDCAM EX community on the web, but only a very small percentage of XDCAM EX owners bother to look up anything about the camera online (and that's true for *any* camcorder make and model). And then out of the small slice of owners who are looking up this camera online, only a small number of them are actually posting about it... hence this forum is, as Richard correctly points out, not at all indicative of the general overall market. It's the best on the web, of course. But definitely *not* an indication of the overall market.

Now that Sony is responding to this issue, expect to see this thread wind down.

So I asked Danny what our chances were in this country of getting a model that had the vignetting problem and he said that it wouldn't happen.

I felt even more confident, given that my box had been "opened for inspection by product testing."

However, when I finally got around to testing the issue (four times), I clearly get the vignetting.

It is quite obvious on the top and bottom right hand corners. This is just one of many screenshots where it is obvious. There were other frames where it was worse than this.

It seems to be happening at the same range of zoom (from about 10 - 15) as everyone else.

Now in America it sounds like they have a number to call if they have the problem... what do we do over here?

Take it back and reject it as "of not mechantable quality". Nothing else you can do.


CS

Take it back and reject it as "of not mechantable quality". Nothing else you can do.


CS

But everyone's been saying that there is a quick fix - they take it back and fiddle with it for a while and fix it - isn't that the case? I don't want to lose it!!

Do you say that based on my screenshot? In your opinion is that vignetting unacceptable? Or am I being overly critical??

John, you go back to Danny. If it is the misalignment issue it will have to visit Sony. You may be able to transport it yourself. The reliable authorised service guys are Pro Hi-Tech, in South Melbourne, whom I presume will be the people involved. Sony does use other people as well.

John, you go back to Danny. If it is the misalignment issue it will have to visit Sony. You may be able to transport it yourself. The reliable authorised service guys are Pro Hi-Tech, in South Melbourne, whom I presume will be the people involved. Sony does use other people as well.

Thanks Serena,

Yours doesn't have the problem?

Haven't seen it. I did the tests last night and looked fine. Have been very busy today and haven't loaded clips into Vegas to check on the monitor. The LCD shows the full field so it should be seen there if present.

I spoke to Danny on Friday and he has my EX1, and a second for my DP friend, ready to be shipped. I don't want to have to do the Sony authorised repair thing...

...I don't want to have to do the Sony authorised repair thing...

Sounds like that's what I'm going to have to do. I hope they don't take it away from me for too long...

It was a two hour drive each way into Collingwod on Friday to pick it up - it's even further to Pro Hi-Tec... What a pain in the neck...

Isn't this pro gear supposed to be covered by an on-site warranty or am I dreaming?

John,

My EX1 has exactly the same vignetting - top and bottom right hand side, even to the point of me thinking that you had borrowed my screen shots. And yes it seems to happen on mine from about 8 - 15, which is slightly less and shorter focal lengths than the problems identified in the US. The camera is from the same batch no doubt (as was Bob's). My serial number is 200066 -I will bet that yours is within 30 of mine, and that they have escaped the QC vignette test. Fortunately my Sony service centre is just down the road, but like you I don't want to lose it. So I am going to ring Sony tomorrow and check whether anyone in Australia is aware of the problem.

I doubt that this level of vignetting will be a significant issue in everyday use as it doesn't show up on the LCD screen - not on a normal scan monitor - but it is clearly there in any overscan monitor. Given that almost no non-professional monitors overscan it is unlikely to show up on a clients screen. However, if it can be fixed then it should be fixed as this is a brand new camera.

A word of warning to Serena - it does not show on the LCD which is a normal scan monitor (there is no all scan setting on the EX - a feature I miss from the Z1), but it will be there in the Sony clip viewer, and if your NLE can be switched to full overscan (such as in Avid Liquid that I use) it is very easy to see.

Bob, seeing as your cameras were the ones immediatley before or after mine in the batch it is possible that you will also have at least one of them with the problem.

I don't think that this is a great problem in the real world - but lets get it fixed!

That's not good news these are escaping Sony's QC.

It makes me wonder how they are actually doing the test.
The key is the problem exists between 8mm - 25mm range.
The aperture must be wide open (f1.9) and the exposure must be
under exposed or you will wash out the vignette.

The vignette starts to dissapear as you close down the aperture to at least f4.

My vignetting issue has been showing up a lot in my footage.

Steven,

Not good news that yours is showing in footage. Fortunatley mine is not that severe, but I haven't used the camera extensively yet. Still I like you want it fixed - sooner rather than later.

Does any one of you want to try resetting the back focus? One Sony dealer told me that it can clear up the vignetting problem (I don't totally believe him). See my thread for instructions.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=110220

And even if you don't do it, at least you can check out the hidden maintenance menu. I am not with my camera at the moment and am very curious about that.

Eric I saw that.
I'm a bit hesitant. My back focus appears good. I'm not sure how that would fix the vignette issue? Having said that, it seems odd they were given very specific instruction on this. Maybe it will help?

Again, what were the details on how you got this info?

Eric,

I saw your reply on this - but I don't have a back focus chart.
I have just downloaded one from Google, but am still a little nervous about trying it. Might give the Sony dealer a call first.

Eric,

One thing I can confirm - the maintenance menu is there, just as you were told and so is the back focus adjustment.

Steve,

Hesitation understood. I will try it when I get to my camera, but I am usually pretty cavalier about these things.

The info was given to me by a Sony dealer who got the info in an email straight from Sony. My instructions were copied from that email. The original reason for the instructions were that very early cameras were having backfocus problems - the focus was drifting during zooms - and this was Sony's fix. They also indicated to him that this would fix the vignetting problem, though that was not the reason for them sending the instructions. He explained to me that Sony very carefully adjusted the back focus on the cameras when they left the factory but that perhaps adjustments were slipping during shipping.

While my camera has the vignetting issue, I have not noticed any back focus problems. But back focus problems might be masked by the MF Assist function, which I usually have engaged.

I am always fascinated by the secret menus hidden in so many gadgets we buy, so I am very curious to see what options are on there, and whether back focus can fix or at least affect the vignetting. I am also impressed that backfocus is adjustable using a soft menu (which means there must be some sort of internal motor to do it?) rather than through direct mechanical interaction.

The story that we, the end users, are told is that because this is a fixed lens camera, there is no backfocus adjustment. Clearly there is. I am wondering whether we should effect this adjustment from time to time (like on a 2/3" camera), as a matter of "maintenance," especially after the camera suffers some high g forces.

Eric, when will you get your camera?

Also, I am curious about the back focus adjustment. Having said that I may pull out the siemens focus star chart and at least check my camera.

Also, when you go to do this automated test. I wonder if the star chart will need to be in an enviroment where close objects will not confuse the calibration?

Siemens Star Focus Chart:
http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/getResource2/e2siemenschart1.pdf?id=6145

I learned something about the "focus bullet" chart just by reading that pdf. Interesting.

Maybe a "Backfocus" thread is in order, as all this has nothing in particular to do with Australia.

Well the courier did eventually arrive at the office with my review sample (albeit almost an hour after closing time on a Friday). I'll be taking it down the Mornington Peninsula next week to put it through its paces.

It does look awfully pretty sitting here on my desk!

My serial number is 200066 -I will bet that yours is within 30 of mine, and that they have escaped the QC vignette test.

You're right - Mine's 200087. Do you think that the later serial numbers will not have the issue?

That's not good news these are escaping Sony's QC.

I don't understand though, because my box was re-packaged with tape that said "OPENED FOR INSPECTION BY PRODUCT TEST - SONY"

I figured that meant that they would have tested for vignetting.

What are we going to do if they say "We tested it and deemed it to be acceptable"?

And what exactly is the fix tht they do? I guess we'll only know when talking to Sony... You say you'll ring Sony - do you mean the repair agent?

Mark,

Can you give us your opinions after you finish?

John,

No I am going to ring Sony Australia first. If they say the back focus correction is the answer, I will do it. If that doesn't work I will ask them to allow a return (very reluctantly), or get it fixed locally ASAP.

I still am not sure however, that the amount of vignetting that I see will be a problem - but Steve's experience says that it might.

I am going to ring Sony Australia first. If they say the back focus correction is the answer, I will do it. If that doesn't work I will ask them to allow a return (very reluctantly), or get it fixed locally ASAP.

Could you let me know the number you're going to call? If we both call the same people it may add weight to our case should we need it.

You can email it to me on hhewat@bigpond.net.au if it's inappropriate to post it publicly.

Thank you so much!

John,

I will be ringing my dealer first to get the number. As soon as I find out what it is I will let you know.

There has not an official response from Sony. We've only heard second hand information from dealers.
I've been in contact with the Sony Techs here in the states, and they stated they will contact me when they get a response from Sony japan.

They called me last week just to let me know they were still waiting.

John,


A word of warning to Serena - it does not show on the LCD which is a normal scan monitor (there is no all scan setting on the EX - a feature I miss from the Z1), but it will be there in the Sony clip viewer, and if your NLE can be switched to full overscan (such as in Avid Liquid that I use) it is very easy to see.



Despite feeling quite non-technical with a cold that's trying to become flu, I've checked out my camera more carefully.
1) it does have slight shading on the right hand side (t & b) at the mentioned focal length range. It is a small fall-off on the waveform monitor and quite confined to the corners. Interestingly it isn't much affected by aperture.
2) the LCD does show the full FOV, as you would expect. Looking very carefully at the LCD I could see the corner darkening, but that wasn't my test of the FOV.

Shooting under practical conditions I couldn't detect the corner problem at all, even with the subject selected to show it. Shooting for chroma key might make it an issue, but generally screens are lit far more unevenly.

I will be mentioning it to Danny and inquiring elsewhere about the technical issues involved. I understand that it is a matter of centering the lens, which I suspect is a very tricky business.

John, I emailed Danny and referenced this thread, requesting that the two cameras waiting for me, and DP friend, are perhaps checked by Pro Hi-Tech before shipping. If it was confirmed to be as simple as the DIY back focus procedure, I could do that myself.

Edit: I just read Graeme's reply to Eric's DIY Back Focus Correction thread. mmm, or perhaps, grrr...

Serena, thanks for the feedback. Get well soon.

Danny will be flooded with calls and emails on Monday morning.

I guess that rules out the theory that the 2000 series cameras are a revised batch that don't have the issue then, keep us informed how you get on with sorting it out.

It's a shame Chris has locked the vignette discussion as the subject is going to span multiple threads and be harder to track now, I'd say this issue is far from solved at the moment.

regards

Paul.

It's a shame Chris has locked the vignette discussion as the subject is going to span multiple threads and be harder to track now...The vignette discussion is now unlocked and the thread formerly known as "EX 1 in AUstralia" has been merged into it. About this thread... I am watching it very closely, and it is important for all who are following this issue to understand how this site works. This message board does not work like typical internet forum sites. It is designed specifically to be focused on technical and creative matters *only.* The idea is to show a *streamlined* discussion which quickly gets to the matter without a lot of noise (opinions, rants, etc.) in the way. Now back to the topic at hand... thanks in advance,

The vignette discussion is now unlocked

Thanks Chris, that's much appreciated.

regards

Paul.

Mine is looking very much like John's in post #311. (S/N 100297).

The vignetting is minor, but definitely present in the upper and lower right corners from about 10-25MM. Panning with OIS on within this focal range very much aggravates the problem.

I am waiting to talk to my dealer, and to Sony for instructions.

What percentage of the EX1s do not have the problem?

Just wondering if I buy an EX1 am I guaranteed to get a "bad" one?

thanks

Not much will be happening in Australia over the Christmas-January period, so might as well keep shooting and really make sure the problem can't be lived with. Shading isn't uncommon in lenses and most operators are able to live with it. My guess (note guess) is that the lens just covers the field and small errors in centering result in a corner or corners dropping in intensity (some will be worse than others); we have examples with shading in different corners. Anyway, here in Melbourne Pro Hi-Tech are not up to full training on the camera and are yet to be advised by Sony of any fix.

Serena,

Spoke to my dealer this morning, who contacted Sony immediately. They were aware of the problem from the US, but thought that the batch we received (2000##) were all passed OK.

Obviously not - but our problems seem far less apparent than the ones in the US.

The dealer told me that Sony had sent a technical bulletin from Japan about the issue which I expect to receive tomorrow.

Hope it is good news - but I like you will be shooting with the camera anyway.

All the best,

Got a call from my dealer in Sydney asking me to check our cameras for this problem as he'd already had one unhappy client ring to complain.

The camera bought for work shows the problem, at the same focal lengths as mentioned, mostly top RH side. The vignette can be made to move by panning the camera hard back and forth sideways.

Got home and checked my personal camera. Problem looked exactly the same but then I looked more carefully. The problem seems to persist right to the full focal length of the lens but it becomes less obvious. It seems that the vignette goes out of focus rather than out of frame. It's affecting a signficantly larger part of the frame but to a lesser extent, in fact it seems to expand to the point of affecting the whole RH side of the frame and the operation of the OIS significantly brings it more into the frame.

My dealer did confirm that the units in Australia are from the second batch. Sony Au believed the problem was fixed in manufacturing and therefore didn't test the cameras for it locally as part of their inspection process.

Perhaps the alignment has been changed from the first batch to the second batch and Sony believes that's fixed the problem but they shifted the alignment too far the other way, that's just my speculation of course but so far out of 2 cameras in my sample group both exhibit the problem. Based on comments from others who have units from the second batch the results are very similar.

I'm not too certain I could live with this problem. Indoor shots might be OK but outdoors with blue sky covering the top of the frame I think it could be fairly obvious.

...in fact it seems to expand to the point of affecting the whole RH side of the frame and the operation of the OIS significantly brings it more into the frame.

Thought I'd add that this is happening to mine as well. After further testing I am convinced that from the top to the bottom along the right hand side is displying the vignetting - not just the corners.[/QUOTE]

Check that out with your waveform monitor. Visual inspection can be in error.

Check that out with your waveform monitor. Visual inspection can be in error.


I'm all for making measurements but how to do this?
As I see it firstly we'd need an evenly lit large uniform surface. That I suspect is no trivial task without a spot light meter to go over the whole surface.
Having obtained that there's then the question of a suitable waveform monitor. I have a hardware monitor that I can use to select any one line but no SDI or HD SDI inputs. I could capture some footage into Vegas however I'm not certain just what the waveform monitor in Vegas actually shows us. I did a quick test using gen media and the results have me confused, it looks like it's the average of the whole frame in some strange fashion. With only black and white I'm getting part of the waveform at an intermediate value.

Perhaps capturing a frame and analysing that with PS would be better?

Check that out with your waveform monitor. Visual inspection can be in error.

With all due respect, I don't think any measurements are necessary to confirm it, if it's there. Evenly lit surface? Just aim the camera at the sky and shoot; if you can see drastic brightness fall-off to any corner of the image, the camera is vignetting.

Finding the actual reason, or determining how severe it is - these are other matters, and indeed require more scientific methods. But I guess it's not us the end users who is supposed to do that.