This is very discouraging as I was about to place my order but am going to hold off since they are still trying to fill preorders. I still want this camera but would like to hear a response from Sony on this issue. It seems obvious that this is not affecting 100% of cameras The Air show footage looked great and did no show any of this...I hope this is just a small % of the cameras and there is a fix.

Jason, the problem is, that there have not been many of us on this forum that have received this camera and 75% are showing the problem. Well at least reported.

We are going to hear from a lot more soon.

I've called Sony Tech @

1-800-883-6817
Enter 252 to direct to the department.

The tech that helped me was very professional. He had just got off the phone with someone else who had the same problem.

They will be contacting Sony Japan with our issues.

Has anyone been able to see it on the EX1 LCD? I know the LCD is small, but I can't see any vignetting on this LCD.

That was one of the tech's question.

I don't believe it's internal processing since it happens between 10mm-25mm focal length.

I'm holding onto the cam unless I'm told otherwise.

Could someone who can view Mac created mov files please check this out and see how bad the vignetting shows itsef. Carol said you really have to look to see it. Unfortunately, I have a PC. MAybe perform a screen capture during its worse section.

http://www.clamcamvideo.com/CLAM0004_01_1.mov

Steven, yeah I hear you it could be just starting. Once others start to call in to report the issue. I am glad that someone at Sony is going to try and escalate this to find out if this really is a QC issue or somthing greater. I am hoping it is a first run issue or something that can be fixed easily enough. Bottom line is a 7000.00 + camera should not be having this issue. I had a friend that bought a Centruy Optics knock off for his FX-1 and his footage is very similar but much worse with the blue tint in all four corners. I hate to think this really is an issue of the 1/2 in sensors tolerance being the cause. Time will tell. I hope Sony find this is still the issue they had with the preproduction models and a Firmware upgrade will fix the issue??One can hope it is that easy!

I hope it's only a firmware issue. But based on how it's directly related to a specific focal range (10-25mm), it does not seem that firmware can not fix this issue. Hope I'm, wrong!

Could someone who can view Mac created mov files please check this out and see how bad the vignetting shows itsef. Carol said you really have to look to see it. Unfortunately, I have a PC. MAybe perform a screen capture during its worse section.


Here's two screen caps, Steven. One where the vignetting in the upper right is worst and one just before the vignetting shows up.

It is _very_ subtle.

Carroll Lam

Carol, your camera is by far better than mine.

Does anyone have a clue what's going on here?

Carroll,

What was the aperture on those shots?

Try a wide open aperture and a deep focus - that's where my vignetting starts to show.

Tonight I could actually see it while viewing the EX1's LCD.
Due to the LCD is so small, it is hard to see, but it's there.

When viewing the files tonight, I see it in all four corners. Mine's just worse in the top and bottom right corners.

Steven, mine is like that, too, all four corners, worst on the top.

I am curious to see if the one I received has this issue. What is the best way to locate? I haven't had much time to do more than turn it on and some basic operational tests.

Should I have iris wide open and zoom tight or wide?

Thanks

Chuck

Chuck,
Put the cam in manual focus at a distance, or set it to inifinity.
Aim at a white wall or ceiling, aperture wide open.

Start at wide and SLOWLY zoom in. f you have the issue, it will probably show
between 10m though 25mm range. SO slowly look around this range.

Try this test with OIS on and OIS off.

What was the aperture on those shots?

Try a wide open aperture and a deep focus - that's where my vignetting starts to show.

The aperture was somewhere around f4 or 5 and focus was set to infinity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deep" focus.

Carroll Lam

I found that when OIS is on and the focal length is set to the problem vignetting setting, the vignetting issue moves around as I pan the camera. You can watch it jump around.

This tells me that something is VERY close to their tolerances.

Steve

I'll give it a try. I did notice something different while playing back some stuff I shot in my living room under low lighting. Vertical objects had the appearance of not being straight. I was not panning the cam..

That's fairly normal, it's barrel distortion. You were probably set to full wide 5.8. If you had zoomed in a tad it would of been better.

When I say normal, ideally it would be nice to have no barrel distortion at full wide, but a lot of lenses, even ones that cost more can have a small amount of barrel distortion.

Also, i'm not sure how you captured that frame, but you may want to choose deinterlace (blend) before your screen capture.
I see your post was an interlace capture.

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

Could someone who can view Mac created mov files please check this out and see how bad the vignetting shows itsef. Carol said you really have to look to see it. Unfortunately, I have a PC. MAybe perform a screen capture during its worse section.

http://www.clamcamvideo.com/CLAM0004_01_1.mov

Steve? I've downloaded your MOV, and I can not view it through QT? I've got the latest QT installed on my PC, I can play other MOV files without an issue. I can "hear" your file, but the visuals aren't appearing. Same for VLC player too.

Grazie

Jason, I think you're right to hold off. Early adopters of the PD170, the JVC101, the Ford Pinto and numerous other examples show that early adopters pay the price, and invariably end up doing the final prototype testing.

It's nothing against the manufacturers, if they waited till every production bug was sorted before releasing a new product we'd still be shooting onto VHS.

tom.

now lets get one thing straight.... it was only the pinto wagon ( estate for you brits ) that had the exploding fuel tank problem..... hehe

I guess there might be some satisfaction in owning something that can be fixed with firmware..... the vignette issue is another issue.

Just a thought.... is it possible that it's a ND filter hanging on the outer edge? or does the EX1 not have the ND filter flags like the Z1?

Internal NDs are way, way out of focus, so I'm much more swayed by the thought that it's a tolerance build-up that puts the chip centrelines very slightly off axis. Unlike wide-aperture lens vignetting (where it's not uncommon to have the frame edges 1.5 stops down on the centre) this shows a mechanical problem such as I've just described.

tom.

Guys have you tried the same set up with any other of your cameras?
Did you have any Vignette problem with other models?

Stelios

so basically, the lens's image circle is not quite big enough for the chip with the manufacturing tolerance sony has with this cam out of their prestigious cinealta factory? Maybe a miscommunication between fuji and sony on specs?

I do trust that to have a lens do all the magical things this fujinon lens can do... and not have any issues.... is remarkable.

Personally... I'd take a little vignette over softness at one end of the zoom range or the other any day. Heck.... I tend to add a little vignette in post to most things anyways. But.... if I were shooting something critical like paintings or a product on a white cove I'd be a bit bothered. Then again.... I guess an layer in post could overcome the problem with the white cove issue.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a conspirasy with manufacturers to give us a reason to always feel the next price point of product in there line will fix the problems of the one below it? Almost as if they create a perfect product and then take something away and lower it's price.

sorry for the ramble.... latte kicking in

I guess this thread can go on for weeks as the back orders are filled and we post our findings.

Now we have to ask the tough questions which none of us here can answer (only Sony).

What will Sony do to fix this (they've gotta know if its widespread it's gonna be a bear)?

Will each user be left to do their own QC to determine what's "acceptable" or will Sony simply repair the cameras regardless of degree of vignetting?

Are those waiting for their pre orders to be fulfilled simply waiting for bum cameras that will need to be turned back in for repair?

What happens if you spot the issue months after receiving the camera?

No need for you folks to answer this. WE need to hear from Sony.

My only comment will be, if it's firmware it'll be relatively painless. If it's hardware there's going to be a lot of shipping back and forth along with repairs and follow up QC. I'd hope Sony is looking at the production line and dealing with it there if it's hardware. I'd rather wait a few more weeks and get a good camera then go through the process of receiving, doing my own QC and sending back.

Now we need to hear from Sony.

This is Sony's CineAlta professional camera division. I can't imagine Sony will drag their feet with this issue.

I believe the CineAlta division takes great pride in the highend cameras.

Based on the few cameras we've received here, and the amount of known problem cameras, this is going to be real large.

Yes, but now the whole thing becomes a business issue which we have to wait to hear from Sony.

The more cameras that ship the more Sony will have to deal with shipping back and repair (unless it's a firmware issue).

For all we know, they may be dealing with it now which is why people are hearing next batches in a couple of weeks rather than a constant output.

The more cameras that get out there the worse the public relations issue becomes. Companies fix and survive these though. Remember the JVC 100 "split screen."

The unanswerable question is, given what has be quantified (and QC'd) by the users on this forum, when and how will Sony act.

Sony must have been aware of this as per Adam Wilt's article so one might also question why the issue persists in the production release. Alas another unanswerable question. I guess the concern is if they were aware of it then how did it get to this stage in release? THAT doesn't instill confidence.

Personally I don't look forward to getting a camera with an issue in two weeks and I don't look forward to having to PROVE to Sony it's an issue regardless of how sever or mild.

I think Sony has a narrow window to fix this. But again maybe they are already given the delays in the next batch.

My wish now is that Sony speak with either words or actions. I dearly you are correct in your assessment Steven.

This is Sony's CineAlta professional camera division. I can't imagine Sony will drag their feet with this issue.

I believe the CineAlta division takes great pride in the highend cameras.

Based on the few cameras we've received here, and the amount of known problem cameras, this is going to be real large.

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

Thanks, Eric. The sky clip I posted was manually focused at infinity but the iris was at about mid-range. I'll attempt to setup a situation of full-open aperture to repeat the test.

Carroll Lam

Thanks Carol.
We're looking forward to your results.

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

In cinematography "deep focus" refers to a large depth of field. The best known example is Citizen Kane, but DOP Gregg Toland also used deep focus in other films.

Shallow focus is opposite, a small depth of field: currently fashionable using wide aperture lenses shooting on 35mm or using 35mm adapters on video cameras.

It's quite possible to have a shallow focus on a far subject with the closer objects soft, or a deep focus on a near subject with everything sharp from the subject to infinity.

Brian,

Perhaps in the language of cinema critique, and/or perhaps in the UK.

But I can assure you that on the US film sets I've been working on for the past 20 years, the terminology I use is common.

"Shallow" is perhaps less often used than "close focus."

We'll often refer to "shallow depth of field" but when we say"shallow focus" or "deep focus" I can assure you we are referring to the distance that the lens is set at and not the resultant DoF.

We'll often refer to "shallow depth of field" but when we say"shallow focus" or "deep focus" I can assure you we are referring to the distance that the lens is set at and not the resultant DoF.

Interesting. In my 25 years art directing and directing commercials all I ever ask for is a "deep stop" or WFO. Must be a geographical thing.

vince

I think it might be a geographical terminology issue. My experience is "Deep or shallow focus" refers to depth of field. Long or short refers to distance for the focus. "Your focus is long. Your forcus is short." "I want a deep focus on this..." is the corresponding t-stop for the deepest depth of field on the subject.

"Close focus" an "Far focus" are not heard as often. "At the long end, or short end" of the lens is heard more often.

Film terminology, and especially on-set jargon, is very regional, and in my opinion, clubby and exclusionary, but I guess it does provide a useful shorthand that probably makes production at least 1% more efficient.

Film production is a tribal thing, if you think about it, with crews that work together often developing their own weird vernacular.

But I think WFO is universal!

(Come to think of it, we'll often say "wuf" when we mean WFO)

Please let's not derail this thread on semantics.
Sony techs were refered to this thread.

I'm a bit bummed with this problem and feel like I'm stuck in a waiting game.
I just received this camera yesterday anticpating I could learn it fast enough for upcoming event work.

So the way I see it I have several paths.

1. Wait for Sony's response to this issue and how they plan on handling it.
The real question is how long? I imagine long enough so the dealer will
not honor a return.

2. Return this camera for replacement (Based on the odds here, I'll probably receive another with the vignetting issue). Also, the likelihood of them having stock is not good, to say the least.

3. Return the camera until I hear they actually fixed the EX1 issue, then repurchase. This could take three to six months. I'm not sure about this one.

4. Return and call it quits for the EX1.

Film terminology, and especially on-set jargon, is very regional, and in my opinion, clubby and exclusionary, but I guess it does provide a useful shorthand that probably makes production at least 1% more efficient.

Film production is a tribal thing, if you think about it, with crews that work together often developing their own weird vernacular.

But I think WFO is universal!

You do get in camera crew jokes that are regional like rhyming slang. However, equipment and techniques tend to be at least national, if not international in the English speaking world. That's not to say that you don't get the odd quirky national name for a piece of kit, in that regard it's no different to any other industry. However, like any other terminology it's easily picked up.

Terms like deep focus are international, especially since there has been so much written about the subject over the years.

Whats the window of opportunity for a return for full refund? Seems like that's the driving force behind the decision tree. I wouldn't expect Sony to make a public comment for another week at the earliest.

I'm glad I opted to return mine as I wouldn't want to be holding on to a camera with the problem whilst waiting to find out Sony's position on fixing it.

If they announce a fix then that's great, but they could also decide that it's inherent with this model and within tolerances, then it just becomes part of the purchasing choice we have to make.

Personally, I wouldn't have the camera with this problem, others though have said they can live with it.

removed by user

I love all this stuff.

I agree with Steven, can we please not dilute and derail this thread as it could be an important factor in Sony understanding the problems some of us are facing.

Thanks

Paul.

Edit: Thanks for your understanding Vince, much appreciated.

I agree with Steven, can we please not dilute and derail this thread as it could be an important factor in Sony understanding the problems some of us are facing.

Thanks

Paul.

If you've got problems with your cameras, you should contact Sony. Even if you can live with it for the moment, send Sony a letter stating the situation and asking that they send you a new unit once they've sorted their QC problems. If you don't, Sony can say that it affects less cameras than is really the case and won't address the issue.

I know some other manufacturers have been good in this regard, but you can't depend on Sony reading threads in forums.

I think someone needs to post a step by step testing procedure for this issue. It should be clear and precise. It should be something like set camera to X record mode, x F stop, x Zoom setting, point towards solid colored object keeping peaks under 100% and slow zoom through, Try OIS on/off, etc. I'm not sure what the procedure should be but this will all give us a near uniform test. I'm sure that'll help Sony.

We should probably upload screen grabs or video clips (Chris Hurd would this be a viable idea)?

It'll be hard enough for Sony dealing with verbal descriptions on phone calls and scouring through pages of posts on forums. The more we can consolidate and document the better it'll be for them.

I think the above will help Sony trouble shoot this.
________________________
Sony will HAVE to say something to somebody IF they acknowledge the issue. They HAVE to be aware of that. If they're forthright and responsive it will go along way in showing they're a company that stands behind their pro gear.

_______________________
One of the things I do professionally is provide QA and trouble shooting for a company that makes video/media related products so I can imagine what internal stuff Sony is going through.

Let's offer to help them trouble shoot this, request a proactive response from Sony so they can demonstrate professional customer satisfaction, let's NOT react by disparaging them.

Something's going on with the optical path. Oddly the path is tightest between 10mm through 25mm focal length?

Some cameras have the vignette centered showing in all forur cameras. Some are weighted more to one side than the other. Mines weighted more to the right, but does show in all four corners.

Here's a general setup to determine if your PMW-EX1 camera has the vignette issue:

1. Set the EX1 for FULL manual control.

2. Set the cameras focus at infinity. (furthest focus range).

3. Position your camera on a tripod with "Steady Shot" OFF (OIS OFF).

4. Aim your camera on a white or neutral color wall (not black).

5. Start with camera at full wide (5.8mm) and zoom all the way in and verify
no objects come into your view throughout the zoom travel.

6. Do not over expose the image. Actually intentionally under expose the
image.

7. Now with your camera set to wide 5.8mm focal length, start recording.

8. While recording SLOWLY zoom up to 40mm. The problem is known to be
seen in the 10mm - 25mm range. So SLOWY zoom through this focal
range.

9. Import your footage into your computer and look for the vignetting issue.
IMPORTANT: When viewed on a monitor while recording, you may not see
the issue due to the monitors overscan. View your capture footage on your computer.

Thanks Steven -- I've copied your how-to post in a new thread here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109119

Directing replies back to this thread. Greater visibility that way.

I just got off with the Sony Techs. They are currently performing this test on an EX1 in house. It's possible that their camera does not have this issue.

At this present time, they have had three others calls in with this issue.
Of course, that's not to say it's no more wide spread.
Based on the number of cameras here, this issue sure gives the impression the percentage of cameras that have this problem is VERY large.

Steve

I can confim my camera has the issue in the top right and left corners. Also when fully zoomed tight is can see a more of a cirlce than at the two top corners. I will post pics as soon as my edit system is open.

Chuck

I just spoke to the Sony techs - they took my info and gave me a reference number. They told me they were referring this to Japan and would call when they had an answer.

They said that they could not duplicate the issue on their test camera. I told them the general guidelines for revealing the problem - "deep" focus, wide open stop etc.

They seemed concerned and helpful and they told me they owed me a phone call, when they knew more. They also asked me to email a screen grab, which I will do.

I went to my dealer today and played with their display camera.

I went through the test as Steven had posted and YES their display camera has the vignette issue.

In this case they had a solid grey carpet I aimed at. It looked very obvious to me. I saw it on the upper left and right but it seemed more severe on the right.

OK. Here's what I got. #68... Looks like it has it at the end of the zoom.

The more I see it the nastier it looks.

I know corporations don’t think logically but wouldn't the smart move by the sony techs you spoke with, given they were unable to replicate the problem, be to swap their camera for yours?

Im more worried about finding the truth as to what’s causing this problem - is it something simple? Can they fix it or worse...is it something they fix but suddenly appears again months later?

Either way its not good for consumer confidence in what otherwise looks to be a killer camera.