Pinnacle Liquid Edition has one of the best slow motion tools I have seen built into an editing program. It does create new frames in between such as most expensive plugins do. I however never tried it on 30p or 24p.

Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode?

Thanks for the footage!!

I mirrored the files here:

http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2_cine_24p.wmvx
http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2-dvx-cine-compare.wmvx

<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode? -->>>

2:3:3:2 mode or 24PA for short! Premiere Pro automatically removes the extra frame for a true 24 fps movie.

I also find it interesting how in the DVX-XL2 clip there are some scenes that they look very close and then others that the colors are so different! Even though I had the cameras white balanced the same. Especially the shots of the crates in the warehouse.

I'm not saying one is better than the other just that they have totally different responses color wise in the same situation. The DVX definitely reacts more film-like to certain lighting conditions....but sometimes at the cost of losing information in these areas. Truthfully my partner and I had gotten into the habit of turning the CInnegamma off and shooting with it flat. Believe me when I say it is much easier to get the DVX look in post than it is to fix a shot that got messed up because og a highlight blowout caused by the Cinnegamma circuit.

Peace!

By the way....to all here who were following my saga, my XL2 was sent back to Canon and replaced. They didn't say it was defective but gave some cryptic message about an issue with the lens. So I now have a new XL2 and will be posting often with my experiences.

tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek...

btw.. i can't seem to download the files...

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Chao : tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek...

btw.. i can't seem to download the files... -->>>

its on a unix server so it is case sensitive. There is another set of links for a mirror copy of these. I anticipate catching flack from my website provider so these may have to come down soon. Hopefully Tre can continue to host these if that happens.

Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one.

Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Exton : Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one.

Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come. -->>>

thanks. I should add that the RED color that you see at night is caused by lights that actually cast that color. When you are there in the real world your brain cancels that out....so when I first saw it I was like.....WTF. But it captured it as is. I didn't have anywhere to white balance so I had to use indoor.

Thanks alot Marty,
I am kind of suprised that you favored the XL2 since I read your post about the colors being more true and saturated on the DVX. I think all the shot's look great and I am assuming that the clips with a more pronunced color are the DVX since I was not sure somtimes which was which other that the colors look a little brighter. Did you show these in a specfic order .i.e DVX then XL2 or vice versa. It would have been nice if you could of labled each shot but I think I could tell which was which.

Also in the dark shots does it seem the DVX is more sensitive than the XL2? Anyways thanks for the great footage!

Look at the width of the video to see the different camera shots.

" It will alternate between 16x9 and 4x3 pillarboxed in 16x9 for the DVX footage."

Marty

Just a few comments on what I'm seeing in your footage. As was said, its difficult to get a read on some of these because the response seems to change with each setup (I think this is mostly due to changes in lighting..looks like you shot all the XL2 footage in one swoosh, and then camera around with the DVX...so the changes in daylight are affecting many of the scenes)....in some of the shots the xl2 seems significantly more saturated than the DVX, but what is most notable is the smoothness of the image. In several instances where the DVX has an edge on saturation, the image seems to fall apart more than one would expect. I've always avoided the cinegamma settings on my DVX because I felt they caused noticeable noise and posterization to the image (about the same as fixing in post)...is your DVX the original or the A version? The A version shouldn't do this.

Overall, I think its clear to me why you chose to stay with the xl2...and thank you for your comparisons, as I haven't spent much time doing this kind of A-B thing...your footage will be helpful when we get around to a two camera shoot someday.

Barry

Barry,
All of the Indoor shots are under the "exact same" lighting conditions. there is no outside light in those shots....all artificial light. Only the outside of the building where you see the CEI sign and I pan toward the warehouse is it natural light. And yes. that part was shot the next day.

I had already sent my XL2 back and decided to recreate the same shots (approximately) with my borrowed DVX to convince myself that it would look just as good. As I said in the original post I was essentially hoping the DVX would look as good. I wanted to stick with the DVX. I even took extra time to make sure that I white balanced properly on the DVX as footage I shot here 2 months ago looked very greenish and grey. However when I A-B'ed them in the timeline I found I really preferred the XL2. Which actually p**ssed me off cause I wanted that extra cash back! But at the end of the day I am very happy with XL2.

Also....my employer has purchased all of the accessories for this thing so I am no longer worried about the financial difference in the 2 cams....since the biggest issue was affording the accessories.

Edit: The DVX was the original or "classic",

I guess this is the kind of footage we were waiting for. Thank you for posting and risking server death.

i still can't seem to open the files... it states that it is no longer on the server or something like that... i can't open the mirrored links either...

marty... why'd you have to send you xl2 in in the first place?

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Chao : i still can't seem to open the files... it states that it is no longer on the server or something like that... i can't open the mirrored links either...

marty... why'd you have to send you xl2 in in the first place? -->>>

I just tried again and the links work for me. Are you behind a firewall or something?

Without going into great detail I was concerned that there was a problem. Canon tested it and said that there was an issue with the neutral density filter being in the on position even though it was slid to the off position. Then they sent it back to the vendor to give back to me.....with no paper work or description if they fixed it or what might have been wrong. So this vendor, a DVINFO.NET sponsor, said they didn't feel comfortable sending it back to me so they gave me a brand new one.

no firewalls... i'm no a mac... that shouldn't prevent me from hitting up the links tho... barry's footage and others come up just fine... maybe the dv gods don't want me to see your footy...

did your lcd flicker on both cameras in 16:9 mode... i know the discussion is shot to death, but since you had two xl2's, just ought to know...

Kevin,
I have seen no flicker on either camera. Sorry.

But I would like to comment on something that others have pointed out. Everyone says that 24p defaults to 1/24 shutter speed. I have not had that experience. However I have turned my camera to 24p postion and never changed it. So maybe once you change it from 24-30-60i and back it goes there....I don;t know.

It seems odd as the way the XL2 functions is it will turn on a little red light insid ethe viewfinder to remond you that you are in a "non-default" shutter speed....for example in 30P it is off when you are at 1/60th. Any other shutter speed and the light turnd on to warn you.

So even if the camera defaults to1/24 you are warned and can correct before shooting. However I really don;t think this is an issue unless you are changing frame rates all the time.

So I just brought in my fist capture from my first little test shoot. Sony Vegas appears to be considering it to be IVTC Film 23.976 and not 24p. So is that right ? If I change it two 24p it looks pretty bad. What am I missing here ? Sorry if I'm ignorant but new to 24p and a wee bit confused.

- Ray

23.976 is the way to go, whether it be Vegas, FCP or Premiere Pro. 24p is for film transferred to your NLE for editing. The reason it's not true 24p is because NTSC video isn't true 30p or 60i, it's 29.97p or 59.94i. So your XL2 footage should be edited in 23.976p, not 24p.

That being said, if your goal was to later transfer it to film, you could edit it in true 24p. All you would need to do is convert the audio from 48 000Hz to 48 048Hz. It is not supposed to look bad when you edit in 24p. It just throws the audio out of sync. It might be a compatibility issue with Vegas.

On the xl2 I've tried 24p with 2:3 pulldown(standard) 16:9 and played the dv tape into a 16:9 tv and there is a flicker present with movement, especially pans. Why dont I notice this flicker on films transfered to vhs rented from block buster. Any ideas? Thanks.

here's two possibilities you could look into:

1) your shutter speed was set too high. The highest the shutter speed, the jerkiest the movements will look. Normal setting should be 1/48th of a second. Slower will smooth motion, but also add motion blur. Experiment with those settings. 90% of the time you'll want to shoot 1/48th, however, for specific uses, you might want to use 1/24th, 1/60th, or any other rate.

2) You move too fast! This might seem like a dumb answer, but beleive me, it's not. Videographers tend to be used to make fast pans with crisps results because the image is normally sampled 60 times (fields) per second. Now on film or in 24p with the XL2, the image is sampled at a 24fps rate. Much slower. Film cameramen understand this reality linked to their medium and they know just how fast they can move/pan before the motion seems too flickery. Sometimes, special action scenes in films with lots of fast camera moves will be shot at a faster frame rate, like 48p or 60p, to get more samples per second. There is no easy solution here, 24p means you need to be more careful about your movements. If you do fast paced stuff, you might want to consider the 30p option on the XL2.

for fast panning pieces (like the movie speed or a michael bay movie), does it make sense to shoot 60i and convert to 24p since we can't shoot @higher progressive fps? will that match 24p (for little movement drama scenes)?

It's funny that this should come up now, but it was only inevitable that it would. Being a DVX100a owner I remember going through this conversation over a year ago. Here is the most straight forward answer you can get.

When shooting 24p, you can't handle the camera like a video camera, you need to treat it like a film camera. The reason that you don't notice "strobbing"(as it is often refered to) in movies is that 90% of the time, it is hidden. HOwever, it is still prevelent, filmaker have just learned how to keep the viewers eye from seeing it. Even if you shot at 60i and converted to 24p, the strobing would still be there, it is just inherent to the slower frame rate of 24fps. The way that you hide it is #1 learn the panning speeds for focal lengths. The longer the focal length, the slower the pan needs to be. #2 if you must pan faster than the focal lenght will allow, get something in the frame that the eye can follow, like a moving car or a moving person, something to take the eye away from the background. If you watch any motion picture (shot on film) on DVD, and watch for fast moving backgrounds, you will see lots of stuttering. It has nothing to do with the camera at all. In fact, it is funny now that the Xl2 is displaying the same characteristics as the DVX, because so many people were 100% convinced that it was the DVX itself causing the strobing. Well, all I can say to those people is, "you missed out on a great camera and now your going to find that it is the same with every other camera that shoots progressive video" HA HA HA!

Sorry for the childishness, but you have no idea how many heated arguments I got in over this. People are just convinced that it doesn't happen with film.

I suggest looking up some "filming" techniques and incorporating those techniques into your current shooting styles. It is not hard to follow these rules, and if you do, your footage will look 100x better than any 60i video could ever look (as far as film look goes that is).

hey stefan,

you're absolutely correct. now that i think about most films have panning shots that follow a character or a group of people or something. that's awesome =). thx for the suggestion.

I was bored today and decided to put together a little edit sequence using the XL2 and post it here. It's nothing fancy but hopefully some will think it's cool.....

www.starcentral.ca/trailers/PumpkinGirl.wmv 1.5Mbps / 6.0MB / 0:33 seconds

Canon XL2 NTSC, 24P, 16:9, 3:2 pulldown, -3dB & 0dB, 1/48th. Manual mode, some cine gamma settings, Canon XL1s 16x lens, 500 watt Lowel DP light with spun and daylight gel indoors, 75 watt yellow flood light and late evening daylight outdoors.

It's cool.

that yo daughter?

anyway i like the XL2's quailty in low-light. is this better than XL1s in low-light anyone know? i have it but i've not utilized it enough to know.

Well the recommended illumination by Canon for both cams is 100 lux.. but really such a rating is meaningless.

Having moved over from the XL1s I would honestly say from what I've seen so far that the low light capability of the two cams are similar.

Note that so far I have only been using the XL1s stock lens on the XL2 and not the new XL2 Flourite L IS lens - not sure if this would make any substantial difference.

Thanks for that clip. I can't wait to see more videos shot with the XL2.

That's really nice, man.

Dennis, why are you using the 16X white lens instead of the 20X new fluorite lens?

Kewl, Dennis!

Love her expression when she sits down and looks at the pumpkin, this kid will go far. ;-)

Thanks for the footage.

--Ralph

I'd be curious to find out if some filmmakers and 24p videographers add (well done) motion blur in post to further reduce the strobe effect?

Is it true that XL2 has no autofocus in 24P?

It has it but it is really, really slow. Similar to Panasonic DVX100A in pogressive mode. They call it "focus assist". It has something to do with the reduced sample rate....normally samples 60i images, 60 per second. In 24P it is only getting 24 per second to adjust focus....so theoretically it will take over twice as long to find the focus.

In 24P mode the CCD runs at 24Hz, vs. in interlaced mode when it's running at 60hz.

So the autofocus system, which is designed to work properly by getting 60 updates per second, is only getting 24 updates when in 24P mode.

It means it won't just take twice as long to find focus, it'll take MUCH longer, because with the updates coming more slowly, it'll likely overshoot its target much more frequently and then overcorrect and overcompensate, ad infinitum...

Adam Wilt tested a DVX in 24P mode on slow shutter speed (which further reduces the updates, I think he used 1/6 second which means the focus system was getting updated only 6 times per second). It took the camera 55 seconds to lock focus, something that 60i would have done in like 1/10 of a second.

So yes, focus assist is there, and no, it won't perform like "real" autofocus.

Jean-Philippe - I plan to use the XL2 mostly with the mini35 so I doubt the 20x lens will even make it out of Canon's box. I just sold my PAL XL1s and my XL2 update kit for the mini35 has arrived - so from here on in, its 35mm lenses for me.

Ralph - I tried doing a short film in the summer with her that I wrote but unfortunately ran out of time. I plan to reshoot it in the spring with the new XL2. As for the footage I posted of her, it seems dark when I view it on CRT so I might upload a brigher version. It looked fine on my LCD.

Thank you Marty and Barry,
I guess DVX100A has the same slow focus in 24P like XL2, right?

Yepper, the DVX100A has a slow autofocus in 24p mode. It would be nice if it was faster, but truly, you really should get a feel for fast manual focus. Helps avoid focus hunting mistakes that ruin an otherwise great shoot.

Does the XL2 have a numbered focus scale like the DVX? That's what really floats my boat with manual focusing on the DVX.

<<<-- Originally posted by Imran Zaidi : Does the XL2 have a numbered focus scale like the DVX? That's what really floats my boat with manual focusing on the DVX. -->>>

no sir....it does not have a numbered focus scale. Serious Bummer.

If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot.

I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot.

I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX. -->>>

I agree with you in general but the numbering scheme on the DVX is pretty accurate if you make a mental note of where you are focusing. For example....when I was shooting talent that were moving say 10 feet in front of me I could focus and make a note that at 46 I was in focus for 10 feet away. Later.....if I have things all screwed up and I need to get back to a similar focus I can just whip it to 49 and know I am in the ballpark. fine adjustments from there.

On the XL if you have people 10 feet from you who knows where the heck you are in terms of focusing without turning the focus and watching to see what happens.

Keep in mind that both of these references are for run and gun manual filming and not "staged" scenes. Also.....this helps on the DVX as the numbers give a good reference as to what area you are focused in without having to look at the viewfinder....I mean....you have to look at the viewfinder to see the numbers and all....but to know you have a scene that is 5-6 feet away you already know the range of focus numbers for that distance.

The DVX ring is different. It's repeatable. It acts exactly like a true manual focus ring, with the exception being no "hard stops" at infinity or MOD. But you can mark the lens barrel with tape marks for your start and end point, and endlessly repeat those marks, just like on a true manual focus lens.

And if you get the Century ring with hard stops, it becomes a completely functional full manual focus ring. It's in a completely different league from the endless-spinner focus rings on cameras like the PD170 and XL2's 20x lens.

Thanks for the footage.
great stuff.
love to see more.

When playing a 24p xl2 clip burned to dvd in progressive scan then played with a progressive scan dvd player on a High definition tv with component in, is this truely playing 24p or is there some interlacing going on. Thanks , Bill

It's not exactly true 24p - but it's as close as you're going to get on a TV. The DVD player has to use a complex algorithm (If you do some searches through the DVD section, you'll see a lot of talk about 2:3:3:2 pulldown and the like, that is what they're talking about) to represent true 24p on a TV running off a 60hz power supply (I assume you're talking about NTSC - PAL is slightly different). What you're getting is 24p represented on a 30p monitor. It will be true progressive, there won't be any interlacing going on.

However, major Hollywood films shot on film have to put up with the same algorithm when they are put on DVD as well - so you don't have to worry about trying to find a better way to do it, because there isn't one. More to the point, the movement differences between 24p represented on a TV and projected from a film projector are invisible to the naked eye. Usually, if you originate in 24p, it's going to look like 24p on your TV.

I have heard the possibility (and maybe someone who knows more can illuminate?) that there will be TVs capable of showing true 1080 24p picture - but that's not a commercial reality right now.

I might be wrong, but I think progressive capable digital TVs (Plasma, LCDs) can display true 24p and don't need to be fed with 30p/60i, just like your standard CRT/LCD computer monitor can show true 24p motion without any kind of conversion.

I don't think that progressive 108024P is possible yet on the tv's you're talking about. Only because the F900 is one of the few camera's that shoots in that particular format and even when it's being monitored there's too much information for a true progressive image it's actually a segmented frame. So I don't think so yet but it will happen soon.

Thanks for any advice in advance. I have been editing since the heady days of Assymetrix DVP and Premiere 4.2 completing various projects over the years, mostly becoming an Adobe stalwart along the way. Well, I have made the big leap...and got myself a shiny new Canon XL2 and a Quad-Xeon monster editing station with 15kRPM SCSI Array, 2 GB of Rambus, and all kinds of goodies like a Hoontech DSP24 MkII and a Canopus MVR1000 R/T MPEG encoder(that I dont plan to use). I have some 24p footage I shot, and want to begin capturing it to edit in Premiere Pro 1.5. As of now...I have no hardware assisted video rendering..I soon plan on an RT.X100 Matrox system.

So basically my questions are these:

1. Must I use the Canon XL2 or its program to capture 24p while shooting and capturing or can I use a DSR-11(or similiar). I want to keep the head usage to recording only...not capture and playback.

2. Can Adobe capture 24p footage, and do you choose the Panasonic 24p preset?

3. For eventual television broadcast, do I use the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pull down?


Thanks again,


AJ