Edit: Ah, Mark has the answer! Mine was a 64gig card and thus was pre-formatted properly for the AX100. Thanks Mark.

So a card comes from the factory with different formats depending on capacity. That would explain why my 16gb and 32gb cards didn't work until I formatted them ex=fat.

But why doesn't the ax100 format as ex-fat since it should know it must be ex-fat for xavc? It looks like the camera simply reformats it to be what it was. But, why? Or, why not a menu item to select?


That's a problem if traveling because one wouldn't have a computer along. So would one need to buy a 64gb? Lots of luck if one is tibet or even at BB which doesn't stock "expensive" cards.


My 16GB was new and uhs-1. U with a 1 inside.

By the way, using the AJA speed test -- the card was nowhere near claimed speed. Only 35MB/second Read and Write.

Maybe format depends on what the current record mode is set at in the camera. AVCHD does not need ex-FAT.

Ron Evans

It's funny. I shot some footage with the AX100 at my local Best Buy today. (they let me shoot to my own card)

I shot at 30p using a 1/30 shutter and 1/60 shutter. (did not test 24p)

When looking at the video I shot, I noticed that it all looked extremely sharp. Slow panning and low motion scenes moved pretty smooth. However, every now and then I would get enough people walking by the shot to cause movement to look very "harsh" or unnatural. And again, other times it looked OK

Is anybody else noticing occasional "harsh" movement? I also noticed that the codec would sometimes "smear" pixels that were moving even very slowly. Not all the time, just occasionally.

Anybody else see this? Is this because of the 60MBp/s low bitrate?

Another thing I noticed when testing the video at home was that I saw plenty of compression artifacts on a 1080 zoom/crop. Its not sensor noise, its definetely codec noise the the blacks. So lets see how much zoom cropping that we can really do for 1080 delivery at this bitrate.

I preordered mine lat week. Cant wait to get it!

I REALLY cant wait to see what Sony might do with a "pro" version of this camera next month!

CT

Hearkening back to the HC1 which ran me 1999.00 at pre0rder time from the states and then a few months later I was able to get one from Japan for 1000.00 and then a few months after that the HC3 was released for even less.
Unlike most, I'm happy enough to use a consumer version as I do videographer stuff rather than cinema and besides lately nobody seems to notice or care what the gear looks like especially if an on tripod monitor is used then it looks Pro enough and is OK.
Seems the deFacto and must include feature for cam vendors in the upcoming crop of cheap cameras will be 4K. so I might wait a bit and get 3 cheapo 4K sonys for multi cam and noOne except the pixel peeping pros will notice any difference.
I'm a contrarian in liking the benefits of relatively smallish sensors as a lot of my shoots involve fast movement of the subjects and the camera as in figureskating and various sports therefore the maintaining or really fast re-aqusition of focus is very very important for my work. Sony's release the other day of the 1/3 4k sensor for use in digi and camcorders is sure to be brilliant and no doubt will shoot 60p and beyond ....my 2p

It's funny. I shot some footage with the AX100 at my local Best Buy today. (they let me shoot to my own card)

I shot at 30p using a 1/30 shutter and 1/60 shutter. (did not test 24p)

When looking at the video I shot, I noticed that it all looked extremely sharp. Slow panning and low motion scenes moved pretty smooth. However, every now and then I would get enough people walking by the shot to cause movement to look very "harsh" or unnatural. And again, other times it looked OK

Is anybody else noticing occasional "harsh" movement? I also noticed that the codec would sometimes "smear" pixels that were moving even very slowly. Not all the time, just occasionally.

Anybody else see this? Is this because of the 60MBp/s low bitrate?

CT

Cliff, if your display has frame doubling capabilities, you'll be amazed at how much better motion looks.

When I implement frame doubling on my plasma, motion goes from just as you described to buttery smooth almost like it was true 60p.

I knew when I got the AX100 (the GH4 will be no different), that motion smoothness would take a hit. It's the reason I've never been a fan of 30p. But most modern displays have frame doublers or more, so motion is smoothed out tremendously. I've seen this on both my plasma and Sharp Elite LED.

Of course these same frame rate increases result in the dreaded soap opera effect with film, so you certainly don't want these engaged while watching movies. But for the AX100 output, it's great.

BTW, I stopped in to an Apple store yesterday and threw my clips on a 27" IMac. The clarity and detail were beyond belief. In fact it drew a crowd of about 5 or 6 people who were stunned by how good the footage looked. I believe at least 2 in that group were going to order the AX100 based on what they saw. The scary thing is that this still wasn't as good as when I saw it on an 85" Samsung UHD TV with full array local dimming.

But that 27" IMac's display is just superb. Too bad my editing programs don't run on Mac.

Sony does specify an SDXC card for XAVC.

=================

"SDHC cards are shipped preformatted with the FAT32 file system."

"SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature"

So one must buy SDXC cards and they start at 64GB:

SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 95MB/s SDSDXPA-064G-AFFP

SanDisk Extreme Plus 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s SDSDXS-064G-AFFP

Lexar Professional 400x 128GB SDXC UHS-I Flash Memory Card LSD128CTBNA400

These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations.

On another site they claim much slower cards work fine -- such as the SanDisk SDSDU-064G-A11 64GB Ultra SDXC Card 30MB/s (Class 10). It's claimed to be UHS-I but it only has a 1 and not a 1 within a U so who knows.

Review: "The write speed is 11.28MB/s which is almost double the requirement for recording full HD video. It is above Class 10 but just barely."

It's half the price, but writing dual streams may be a whole different ball-game.

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

Steve, this morning I took a 32gig SDHC card I had been using in my RX10 and reformatted to exFAT. I put it in the AX100 and it recorded in the 4K mode perfectly. No error messages.

BTW, I had no trouble getting an SDXC card. Amazon and B&H both had it.

Cliff, I'll take a look tomorrow, but I doubt it will output anything via HDMI while recording in 4K.

Sony does specify an SDXC card for XAVC.

=================

"SDHC cards are shipped preformatted with the FAT32 file system."

"SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature"

So one must buy SDXC cards and they start at 64GB:

SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 95MB/s SDSDXPA-064G-AFFP

SanDisk Extreme Plus 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s SDSDXS-064G-AFFP

Lexar Professional 400x 128GB SDXC UHS-I Flash Memory Card LSD128CTBNA400

These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations.

You do not need those expensive cards. Waste of money. This has already been discussed. You can use, for example, Sandisk Ultra SDXC cards (30MBs/sec) which are cheap and available everywhere ($45). There are even cheaper cards that are class 10 and 64GB. They also come formatted exFAT.

The bitrate for 4K is 60Mbps. That is less than 10 MBps, so you do not need a really fast, expensive card. It is a major advantage of the AX100 compared with any of the non cellphone 4K alternatives - you can use cheap, readily-available sdxc cards.

And, you can format any card to exFAT with your computer before you travel. I use Ultra cards, and have shot hundreds of clips in 4K using them, including this video: https://vimeo.com/89673510#comment_11319741.

Once the card is exFAT, you can format it in the camera to get rid of files, over and over again. No computer needed.

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

Mark has shown an easy workaround by using a tablet or phone via wifi in conjunction with the PlayMemories app on these devices. You get both the live video from the camera and telephoto control on the tablet or phone while the camera records in 4K.

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

It may not be what you want, but you can view what the camera sees while shooting 4K remotely over wifi in real time.

Here is what it looks like:

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/399917/width/1000/height/1000

You can see the red rec symbol is on (the camera is set to 4K) so the camera is shooting You can also see the zoom control and the start/stop button.

Here is the 4k clip taken remotely, with zoom:


Sony FDR AX100 4K Test Video: Low-Light WiFi Remote Zoom - YouTube



This is my typical low-light set-up shot. Any jerkiness is the stream, or Youtube compression.

I recall that when I made the jump from SD to HD about a decade ago, that with my old Sony HDV camcorders like the HVR-A1U that if I shot in 1080i HD, the camcorder could be set to down convert to SD to play on my old SDTVs or to edit in SD on my PC. It was a handy feature to have between the transitioning from SD to HD.

Now, that we might be transitioning from HD to 4K, I was wondering if a similar process is possible here with the FDR-AX1 like being able to shoot 4K and then down convert and playback in HD on your HDTV or to edit in HD on your PC. Is that possible? I ask since 4K shooting might be the future, it is not the present right now.

The AX100 will play (downconvert) the 4K videos in (to) HD if it is attached to an HDTV by HDMI automatically. And, of course, you can convert 4K to HD in any editor, saving the original 4K files for later.

In the meantime you can also upload the 4K videos to Vimeo or Youtube, letting them make the conversions to HD (you do not have to). This works fine. And on Youtube you can also stream in 4K and view in 4K if you have a 4K viewing device.

So HDMI (1080) field monitors cant be used while recording in 4k. (there goes my Atomos scopes and RGB parade.)

I guess that Sony is also making it very loud and clear that they DO NOT want you bypassing the 60 Mbp/s compression in any way, shape or form at this price point.

Now, the big question will be: If Sony releases the "pro" sister camera to the AX100 what "extra" will they give you for the $1000+ bucks?

XLR Top handle for sure.
XQD card socket?
100 Mbp/s codec at 4:2:0 8 bit?
"unlocked" HDMI out while shooting 4k?
Histogram?
"NXCAM" badge?

I'd return my pre ordered AX100 and spend the extra $1000 for that.

Sony has a Sunday, April 6 live web streaming press event in Las Vegas. All questions will be answered then!

CT

p.s. Alister,....have you signed any NDA's yet? ;-)

So far the videos are looking pretty impressive...

Sony runs a risk if they release a "pro" version from what I've seen so far. "Watching video" is more like looking through a window, even on my old 1080 screens, I'm not seeing any major flaws with the 30p (though I'm expecting fast motion might have some gotchas). I'm seeing much the same quality that the RX10 is delivering for me already, and with any luck the RX10 and RX100M2 will be good for "B" cams alongside the AX100. A lot of imaging power in small packages!


Sony would have to either price very high, or do something else to keep quite a few of their other cameras competitive... that's not to say I don't expect an NX version of this any day now, but Sony will have to be very careful not to cannibalize sales from themselves as they blaze the 4K trail with this thing. The so called "limitations" don't seem all that off putting as it is...

These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations.

They don't cost too much. I have two Sony 64gb SDXC 94MB/s cards that I bought for $60 each online at Amazon. Like others said you don't need to use cards that fast, but for me it's really nice to be able to quickly transfer the footage off the camera when I'm done with a shoot so I went for the fast memory cards as they are relatively cheap anyways.


Now, the big question will be: If Sony releases the "pro" sister camera to the AX100 what "extra" will they give you for the $1000+ bucks?

XLR Top handle for sure.
XQD card socket?
100 Mbp/s codec at 4:2:0 8 bit?
"unlocked" HDMI out while shooting 4k?
Histogram?
"NXCAM" badge?

I'd return my pre ordered AX100 and spend the extra $1000 for that.

It wouldn't make me return my incoming AX100 as I have specific needs for that camera (it will replace my NX30), but I do hope they have a larger sensor 4k pro model that could replace my VG900. Either way, good times for good camera gear!

For all of those you better get PXW-Z100 instead. Everything is in.

This camera is so impressive. Here's some 4k footage in the first few hours of filming with it it.

4k Sony FDR-AX100 first shots - YouTube

[QUOTE=Ken Ross;1838297]Steve, this morning I took a 32gig SDHC card I had been using in my RX10 and reformatted to exFAT. I put it in the AX100 and it recorded in the 4K mode perfectly. No error messages. BTW, I had no trouble getting an SDXC card. Amazon and B&H both had it.

Yes, IF you have a computer one can reformat with it.

And yes, you can get an SDXC card on-line. But, at B&M BB 64GB is $279 and will not likely be available because "their computer has determined that not enough will be sold to justify stocking." Try in small town USA or in Burma.

What one CAN do if needed is good to know, but Sony specifically states SDXC.

And, with only a few days of experience no one can say anything more than "no error messages YET."

Writing 2 streams, one at 60MBps (is this a minimum, average, or maximum -- it's not yet been measured?) and one at 3MBps, I have decades long experience telling me to not underestimate burst rate peak's ability to cause a glitch.

Buying a $2K camera and then taking a chance to save a few bucks strikes me as a real newbie move. Paying about $50 more seems worth it to me. Later when the cheap cards have proven themselves, I'll think about saving money.

Moreover, when reviewing a camera I can't take a chance on MY making an error.

Hi, I have many Memory Stick Pro HG-Duo. In your opinion will Sony FDR-AX100 work fine with them?
thanks

Steve, 64 gig SDXC cards can be had for less than 1/2 the price you quoted from a B&M. Buying from a B&M at that price strikes me as a newbie move.

Frankly I think the paranoia about losing all your pre-formatted cards or the cards suddenly failing, is just that, paranoia. If you're really that concerned, buy only SDXC cards at under $100 and put two in each pocket and two in your socks. No biggie. ;)

Now what happens if you lose your camera on this trip too? :)

So far the videos are looking pretty impressive...
"Watching video" is more like looking through a window, even on my old 1080 screens, I'm not seeing any major flaws with the 30p (though I'm expecting fast motion might have some gotchas). I'm seeing much the same quality that the RX10 is delivering for me already, and with any luck the RX10 and RX100M2 will be good for "B" cams alongside the AX100. A lot of imaging power in small packages!

...

Dave, I know I've said it many times, but there are virtually no motion issues when you watch the AX100's 30p, 4K output on an HDTV or 4K display with frame rate doubling. Almost all good displays (plasma & LED/LCD) have had this capability for the last few years.

Anyone watching in this manner will be very hard pressed to see the difference between this and true 60p. For AX100 owners I can't stress this enough. The difference between using this feature and not with fast motion, is huge. To me, it so minimizes the issue of 30p, while watching on a display that has this feature, that it becomes almost moot.

As for intercutting RX10 and down rez'd AX100 footage, your biggest problem will be the very obviously sharper AX100 footage...even in its down rez'd to HD state. It's impossible not to notice it.

Kind of nice to have these 'problems'. :)

For all of those you better get PXW-Z100 instead. Everything is in.

Yeah, but much larger, much heavier (over 2x the weight), a 1/2.3" sensor vs the AX100's 1" sensor and a price tag that's over double.

So as with many things in life, each approach has its pluses and minuses.

I guess that Sony is also making it very loud and clear that they DO NOT want you bypassing the 60 Mbp/s compression in any way, shape or form at this price point.



Cliff, as far as I know, you can always choose to output the AX100's 4K to an external recorder. That should bypass the 60 Mbps internal compression depending upon what you record it to. The output limitation is only when you're recording 4K internally.

I know for sure I saw my AX100's live, 4K output, on an 85" Samsung UHD TV. It looked superb.

Steve, I use these Patriot cards in my NX30U, NX5U , CX700 for some time with no issues and they are well within the speed needs of the FDR-AX100. Come from my local computer store or if out of stock they get in 2 days. shopRBC.com :: Patriot EP 64GB SDHX Class 10 UHS-I Memory Card (http://www.shoprbc.com/ca/shop/product_details.php?pid=85852)

This video has some fast motion to see the motion of 30P for dancer etc. 4K?FDR-AX100 ???????????' ARIGATO EVERYONE? - YouTube

Ron Evans

For all of those you better get PXW-Z100 instead. Everything is in.

I have the FDR-AX1 a better choice at the moment since the PXW-Z100 is currently only XAVC 10bit 422 and needs the fast and very expensive XQD S cards. 64G card will only last about 10 mins at 60P too. This summer the PXW-Z100 will get a firmware update to record LongGOP which should ease the cost a littlebut now its a very expensive option. Both these camcorders are not great in low light mine is at least 2 stops slower than my NX5U.

Yes they both do have lots of options but miss things that are on the NX5U like smooth gain switching and a nice ramp on the power zoom. At the moment they also do not have data code or time code. Lots of buttons not yet working !!!

I think Sony are rushing to gets lots of 4K products to market.

Ron Evans

Yes the Image is displayed during the recording remotely on my smartphone… (galaxy Note II) …

Bought my AX-100 at Samy's Camera in Culver City, Ca. this past Saturday. Walked into the store and first salesperson said they didn't have it yet. I Spoke to another sales person and asked when they would be receiving it and he said he had one in the back! I Walked out with it and had fun playing with it enroute to Philly while flying on Sunday. Had issues with card at first, and couldn't record 4K, then discovered the exFAT format trick, (based on info in this forum) and walla ! 4k looks gorgeous ! Extra battery and cards arriving via UPS today.

Dull cloudy day here in the Atlantic City area and can't wait for the sun !

BTW Samy's salesperson said he had received six cameras. Three were purchased by a major movie studio on first day and one to an individual before me… He Claims mine was the fifth in LA County.

Steve, 64 gig SDXC cards can be had for less than 1/2 the price you quoted from a B&M. Buying from a B&M at that price strikes me as a newbie move.

Now what happens if you lose your camera on this trip too? :)

I agree. I'm going to use the 16gb in my MB Air for Mavericks and Resolve. The 32gb goes to wife's MB Air to giver her more storage.

I've ordered a 64gb sdxc from Amazon for $100.

I can't believe BB wants almost 3x more money.

And yes, I worry about the ax100 going missing on a future 3 week europe trip! I'm a pro at worry. :)

Seriously,on our recent Asia trip it was nice with my wife shooting on her iphone. No computer and no camera to worry about. We could upload every night. A long way from mailing 8mm rolls home from Europe in the `60s.

By the way have you seen the AX1 shootout against an iphone? I pity the Japanese camera companies because most everything they can do can be emulated with software. And, Apple is hiring camera guys and Samsung has plenty in-house.

PS: the interesting thing is i read the AX100 manual multiple times and never noticed that under XAVC it said -- with no warning -- SDXC.

... do have lots of options but miss things ...

I was comparing my V1 manual to what I'm doing for the AX100 and noticed that Sony had simply dropped many menu items. Perhaps removing functions is a trend. /on the other hand, the touchscreen operation is very simple and fast. It is a real pleasure to use.

At NAB there will be a neat device for the AX100 that may be a must have for many. I'm under NDA but will be doing a review of it.

BTW Samy's salesperson said he had received six cameras. Three were purchased by a major movie studio on first day…

Somehow I'm not surprised. Where a high quality image is needed and the risk of total destruction is great, I can see movie studios buying bunches of these. With their budgets, these are throwaway cameras that also happen to shoot wonderful video.

Anyone watching in this manner will be very hard pressed to see the difference between this and true 60p. For AX100 owners I can't stress this enough. The difference between using this feature and not with fast motion, is huge. To me, it so minimizes the issue of 30p while watching on a display that has this feature, as to render the issue almost moot.)

In the ntsc world our flat-panel tv's always have been able to present 60p. 60i fields are paired to 60p. 24p has 3:2 pulldown added to make 60p. (And some hdtv's allow 60p input.) So we have no choice -- if 30p comes in, we see 60p because each frame is repeated twice.

An optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames. So are you talking about turning ON the 120/240 mode?

Moreover, doesn't the AX100 auto-sense the hdtv and automatically output 60p or 60PsF (which looks to the tv like 60i). I can't see Sony ever outputting 30p.

The question of 24p is more complicated. Some hdtvs do accept 24p -- and they could signal the AX100 to output 24p. In this case it will be the hdtv that adds pulldown. But, if the hdtv can accept 60p then the camera can add the pulldown. If neither are accepted -- then pulldown is added to make 60PsF which looks to the tv like 60i. Again, an optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames.

I would never use this with 24fps as it removes film judder. In fact, I probably wouldn't use it with 30p for the same reason.

With all the RAW Cinema cameras being used at 24p, I figure why not go with the film look. Plus, 24p goes perfectly to BD, it will obviously be supported on BR2, and it makes more efficient use of the bandwidth allowed by 4K youtube. Moreover, 24p easily becomes 25p. It really is a world standard.

Plus, following the camera/subject motion rules for 24p provides the added benefit of reducing/eliminating RS.

I LOVE 60p, but it just isn't going to be adopted with 4K being a much bigger buzz word. (Youtube will not transmit 1080p60.) And, acceptable 60p can be generated -- as you say -- by the hdtv. Maybe with 8K.

In the ntsc world our flat-panel tv's always have been able to present 60p. 60i fields are paired to 60p. 24p has 3:2 pulldown added to make 60p. (And some hdtv's allow 60p input.) So we have no choice -- if 30p comes in, we see 60p because each frame is repeated twice.

An optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames. So are you talking about turning ON the 120/240 mode?

Yes Steve, you are correct, I'm actually speaking of the rate doubler that ups it to 120 or, in some cases, to 240. It's this increase that smooths out the video and makes it look as if it were recorded in 60p. But as I said, this is the same increase that causes the SOE (soap opera effect) when watching film. But I see no ill-effects with the 30p video from the AX100. I also saw this same benefit with ordinary cellphone video that is also generally 30p.


Moreover, doesn't the AX100 auto-sense the hdtv and automatically output 60p or 60PsF (which looks to the tv like 60i). I can't see Sony ever outputting 30p.


I don't think the output of the AX100 is looked at as 60i by the display. When I feed the camera output to my Samsung F8500, it sees it as 60p. If the display saw the output from the camera as 60i, it would report that, as it does from my Directv STB. When I switch to my STB, you can see the TV reporting back the signal as '60i'. With the Sony, it reports 60p.

I can honestly see no downside and only benefit in enabling the doubler and minimizing/eliminating the stutter of fast motion. I don't see this as the same thing as removing judder in film. If you're watching film you generally want the look of film. To introduce the soap opera effect by using a doubler merely adds the look of video and you no longer have the look of film. But with the AX100 or most other video cameras, I'm trying to retain the look of smooth video, not film. 30p will never look like film IMO.

Looking at the "Hello Kitty" video, it looks pretty good, a bit of motion blur, but not objectionable, actually looked "good" considering, smooth enough and no "stutter" or jerkiness. Perhaps the higher resolution "covers" for the lower frame rate?

RS might be a rare issue, but not a problem for most things, and it's not like other cameras won't have the same issue. Careful panning and not shooting moving trains at close distances will probably do the trick!


So Ken is the AX100 THAT much sharper than the RX10? I know the RX10 &100M2 are quite sharp "HD" and the AX100 is obviously sharp displaying as 1080 (I don't have any 4K screens!). I suppose the RX10M2 will bring 4K to that model... It's scary to see such a big jump in video quality in such a short time! I guess with cell phone sensors and software chomping at the camera market (actually swallowing many parts whole!), the manufacturers have to really up their game to have anything saleable and appealing to the "consumer"!

I suppose it's time to spec a 4K capable computer system! Anyone have one of those "cheap" Seiki 39" 4K TV's as a "monitor"?

Now to go stand outside a studio and try to catch a "throwaway" <wink>!

This camera is so impressive. Here's some 4k footage in the first few hours of filming with it it.



Glen, congrats, you really did such a nice job with that video. Very impressive.

So Ken is the AX100 THAT much sharper than the RX10?

Yeah Dave, it really is. I remember being so impressed with the detail from the RX10 and now, in comparison, it looks more 'ho hum'. Now remember, I'm talking about viewing both on a 1080p display and I'm talking about starting with a 4K file from the AX100 and down sampling to 1080p. Using that criteria, the AX100's down sampled 1080p is significantly sharper. If you initiate a recording in 1080p on the AX100, it's not nearly as impressive as it is when it originates in 4K.

Of course you have the added benefit of now having an archived file in 4K even if your immediate intention is to only use it in HD.

This actually didn't come as a major surprise to me having viewed a number of AX100 videos prior to my purchase and down sampled to 1080p. I could tell that look was not the look I got from my RX10.

But with the AX100 or most other video cameras, I'm trying to retain the look of smooth video, not film. 30p will never look like film IMO.

Last year I reviewed JVC's 4k that shot at 60p. Then I realized it couldn't go to BR or to Youtube. (Unless i scaled it to 720p.). To get 60p on Vimeo I would have to pay them -- which I wasn't willing to do.

I was at a dead end. At that point I became involved with the Digital Bolex which seemed cheap compared to the Sony AX1. I've now gotten so used to 24fps it doesn't bother me anymore.

<< Technically, all these RAW cameras have zero edge-enhancement so edges are soft and it is the hard edges our eyes lock onto to create judder. In theory, 4k video should need edge enhancement because there is so much detail. Thus, judder should be low. >>

Of course, now we have the d16 at $3300, the BMPC4K at $3000, the AX100 at $2000, and the BMPCC at $1000. And, the under $1000 Chinon. And, I haven't been to NAB yet. There are so many great choices!

There may be a trick IF I WANT THE FILM LOOK OF A BMPC4K. Use FilmConvert to add a bit of grain which MAY soften the AX100 edges a bit -- as well as shifting color to one of the Kodak Vision 3 stocks.

This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)

This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)

YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.

This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)

Since 4K is for my own personal pleasure, I have no concern about what's 'in' or 'out'. Never bothered me before and it surely won't now.

My personal goal is to always get as close to the look of 'reality' as possible, to recreate as precisely as I can, what I saw. Cinema doesn't do that. In fact it moves you in a totally different direction. If I were an Indie film maker, it would be a different story, but I'm not. "Dreamy look"? Not for me. "Stylized look"? Not for me.

Frankly, the overwhelming majority of what I see from guys that shoot RAW, look like utter garbage. Properly grading and getting the colors 'right' with RAW is a very difficult process. That's why the Hollywood guys get paid the big bucks. A random look almost anywhere on the web with the average guy showing off his RAW edits, show how painfully distant those skills are from the average bear. But of course the average guy that shoots RAW IS looking for a 'stylized look'. In fact, when some guys show a RAW video that's been graded and produced to look more like 'reality', his results generally get met with poor reviews from other RAW shooters. Such is life. Those rare RAW shooters are producing the kind of video I like.

For me, and the look of reality, the AX100 gets me closer to my goal than any camera I've used before and it does it with a minimum of fuss.

Whatever floats one's boat. :)

YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.

A big "Amen" to that Shaun!!!!!

Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)

...he said with his tongue firmly stuck in his cheek.

Very funny Steve, but you should have placed a bunch of smilies after that comment lest people take you seriously. But just to go with that notion for a bit let me ask which cinema look is in? The horrible juddery 24p mess of unwatchable rubbish produced by many if not most indie film maker wannabe's or the look of, for instance, master cinematographer Christopher Doyle as demonstrated in the classic 'In the Mood for Love'. And there are thousands more somewhere in between.

Here's a suggestion: do a simple survey as follows. Next time you are at a function, partly-like with people happy, chatty, freely opinionated and loose, just normal people and absolutely no film or film related people present (which of course means billions of sane people on the planet totally disinterested in our favorite subject) and ask them out of the blue if they prefer 24p, 30p or 60p. If that mostly draws blank stares don't be surprised nor dismayed and then ask if they can name any production they recently viewed that was convincingly cinematic, filmic (if you can bring yourself to say that non-word) and conversely if they can name any production they recently watched that decidedly was not.

Other than that infinitesimal cohort that is directly involved one way or another (including us or course) people just don't give a toss.

'Video is out'! Very funny:-)

Ken if I was just shooting for myself then 30P may suffice since my Sony 240Hz interpolating display does a really nice job of creating the extra frames for smooth motion. However to edit and make a DVD or Bluray I need either 60i source or 60P source to get that smooth look for people who do not have a nice display. I can clearly see the difference and it bothers me (not as much as 24P ) and I even shoot at 60P with my GoPro and Sony AS30V !!

People have low expectation watching YouTube different from their TV or going to the cinema. Expectations are totally different. For low motion video the FDR-AX100 looks beautiful and just like any camera shooting at a low frame rate it will not provide a smooth motion for faster movement like dancers swinging their arms etc especially if a low shutter is used and/or closeup. In which case the interpolating TV will have more difficulty creating a nice smooth high definition image hampered by the motion blur.

Ron Evans

I hear ya Ron. As you know, part of the equation with any piece of equipment, is knowing its limitations and how to work around them. :)

I suspect that's what most wives say about their husbands. ;)

And husbands say about their wives.

Ron, let me butt in here and offer a few comments. I always pay attention to your posts and it was your thoughtful words that got me going with 60p some time ago. I don't disagree that 60p is 'technically' better than 30p if there is lots of motion involved such as the dancers video you posted. I understand that it bothers you but you are producing the stuff and consequently are very critical, I would suggest much more critical than the average viewer.

Regarding the expectations of people in respect to YouTube, TV and Cinema I caution you on drawing such generalizations as the water gets deep very quickly. To say that 'expectations are totally different' is indeed a mouthful and questionable, and of course I take it you are referring to the general viewing public. To give an instance of the shifts unfolding many people, two of my brothers included, now watch YouTube video on their TV via Ethernet cable from the modem to the TV. I would suggest that your exquisite fine eye is lost on such people and my data-free observation is that content is still King and the faint difference between 60p and 30p even in such scenes is of no practical significance to most folks.

Yes, presumably (I have no data) movie goers do expect pretty pictures but let's not forget that they have been watching 24p since the beginning and to my old eyes 30p looks much better than 24p especially if there is much motion involved.

Having said that I'm not for one moment suggesting that you lower your production standards especially if your customer base expectations are at risk but for enthusiasts whose audience is family and friends, and Vimeo freaks perhaps, then I have difficulty believing that the AX100 will draw howls of indignation because of the 30p frame rate. I would go so far as to suggest that folks should not be dissuaded by the 30p limitation even if shooting motion such as the dancers you referenced.

Now if only B&H would get the AX100 in stock I would place an order.

Cheers...

Totally agree John. We too sometimes watch YouTube on our TV via the Sony Bluray player wireless interface to the internet and then the interpolating 240Hz TV. Does not look so bad !!! People shoot video on their cell phone and then show them to others on their cell phones too. I communicate with Skype to my wife when I am off on a ski trip. All totally different quality levels and expectation in my mind. If I go to the cinema it better look better than my cell phone. The skill level of camera work is also greater so judder inherent with 24P is less obvious and faster motion is often shot at high speed and slowed down. I do not think that with this range of displays the average user will be able to verbalize the differences they see and will not notice 30P as you say especially that everything they see on YouTube is 30P anyway !!!.

For the average user I think it will depend on what they are shooting and viewing the output on. If they do not have a 4K TV then they will be watching a 1920x1080 output from the FDR-AX100. Will they actually see a difference from shooting at 1920x1080 XAVC-S that could be at 60P for smoother motion ? Does the FDR-AX100 actually do frame interpolation for the HDMI output to 1920x1080. Would be interesting to know as Sony certainly has the technology.

Ron Evans

Just got my AX100 this afternoon. Im sceptical of 4k at only 60Mbp/s. Time to torture test the motion handling and low light resolution in the shodows. Lets see if can hold up without blocking and mudding up the blacks.

Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

CT

YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.

Whose talking about making money? Trains made lots of money even during the first decades of air travel. I'm talking about what people are interested in reading about. What they will buy this year or next. What equipment they will stop using like analog when digital was released. What will be big at NAB.

RAW cameras can't even be called video cameras because they don't record video. So your future cameras will never create video nor will you edit video. In the near future you will not be doing video production. The word video will go the way of the 8-track and the 45 record. You'll need to learn a whole set of new skills -- those that come from digital cinema. Yes -- video is a deadman walking.

What publications do you read every month? What newsletters do you read everyday or every week?

Even if they use the word "video" in their title as does DV, I can tell you the content majority is Hollywood productions, Indie productions (both of which are shot at 24p), cameras (Canon DSLR, Pana DSLR, Red, Blackmagic, Digital Bolex, KineRaw, Arri, Sony F3 and up (most of which are RAW and many use log), software (CinemaDNG and Resolve), and, the newest topic "grading" which is definitely not our old friend CC.

Here's a list of this month's DV features:

1) Hands On, Handheld: Camera Moves With Freefly Systems' MoVI M10
MoVI is a revolutionary camera stabilizing system optimized for compact, “squarish” digital cine-style cameras.


2) High Performance, Even Higher Resolution: Blackmagic's Production Camera Points the Way to 4K


3) 2014 NAB Show Preview: First Look at the Trends, Tools and Technologies
ARRI Amira and 4K’s second year at the NAB Show. If trends hold true, we will see many companies touting it as a mainstream production and postproduction methodology.


4) The Beauty of 'Belle': Ben Smithard, BSC Finds Romance With Sony’s F65
Ben Smithard was on his way to producers offices to pitch the Panavision Genesis camera when he noticed a Sony F65 at the Pinewood Studios rental facility.


5) Spotlight: Affonso Gonçalves, Editor, 'Only Lovers Left Alive'
Shot on 35mm film.


6) 'In No Great Hurry': Documenting the Work and Wisdom of Photographer Saul Leiter
Leach shot the film in 16:9 aspect using a Canon EOS 5D Mark III.


7) 'Live from Space': NASA and Nat Geo Air Live Special That’s Out of This World
National Geographic Channel, Arrow Media and NASA are teaming up for Live from Space


8) Non-Stop Camera Movement on 'Need for Speed': How Cinematographer Shane Hurlbut Captured All the Action
The first studio feature film shot with Canon’s EOS C500 camera,

OK -- how many stories covered "video?" Knowing Oliver (#3) will cover mostly Cinema cameras and #7 is certainly not video in the sense of the products we use.

So an entire issue of Digital Video magazine -- and this is true month after month and has been true for many years -- doesn't have a feature on "video." Plus their other publications are "2-pop" and "Digital Cinematography" and "millimeter." Obviously none of these cover video.

Broadcast Engineering which did focus on video died last fall. Video Systems died years ago. That leaves Videomaker which is focused on the consumer newbie.

Editors have no interest stories on compressed format cameras -- although I did last year do a review of a Panasonic AVC- Intra camcorder. Can't even remember the number. They aren't interested because they know there is no interest by the public in reading about what are becoming legacy formats. How many times can someone read about MPEG-2 or even H.264.

Moreover, companies know they will continue to sell AVCHD/NXCAM in huge quantities without having to pay for marketing -- they want to place ads for their new products.

I know what's on my list of "stories to do" for DV. Nothing "lower quality" than 4K and ProRes. Ideally stories on RAW, LOG, Grading, CinemaDNG, and HVEC.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but this NAB will be the point at which both RAW and 4K start to become big sellers. IMO the AX100 will change our world as much as did the VX1000. And, the BM and Digital Bolex cameras will do the same. Together, video equipment will be seen in the same light we looked at Beta SP. Tons of people still using it and DEFENDING IT, while making plans to go to digital ASAP. This 4K/RAW/ProRes revolution will happen in less than 3-years because 8K is coming in 5-years.

PS: I love the 60p look and I hate what people do when they grade. Personally, I agree with all of you. But, I can't make a living trying to go someplace the industry doesn't want to go.

The best quality folks have seen or will see is at the theater. That's 24fps. The majority of shipping 1080p and 2160p products (DSLR, etc.) have 30p as their top rate. Yes, cameras will get 60p and 120p, but it will be for SLO-MO. Despite OUR preference for 60p, I don't see the industry having any incentive to move from 24fps -- which is the gold standard for quality the world over -- to use their bandwidth for 60p while at the same time moving to 4K. That's over 8X more data!

>>Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

Cliff, I'm confused now (not surprising) about being able to use an external monitor while recording 4k. Ken had posted that his understanding was that no signal went out to HDMI while recording 4k. Then I found apparent confirmation of that in the .pdf manual, which says:

"While recording XAVC S 4K movies, you cannot output movies to an external monitor via an HDMI/video connection. Only the on-screen display is output (models with the 4K functionality)."

Are you saying you have actually seen it output to an external monitor via HDMI during 4K recording? If so, that is very good news because this capability is important to me. (I do see now in some recent posts that an alternative is to use wi-fi and the Sony app to monitor and control the camera with a tablet/phone while shooting 4k. That's a good alternative.)

Referencing the "Hello Kitty" video, while there was definite motion blur, somehow it didn't appear objectionable, and blur from fast motion rather than stutter seems preferable, and natural enough.

The rest of the frame is of course nice and sharp, and probably raises expectations even more, but 30p and the "low" bitrate seems to be "working" fairly well overall - seems like Sony is arranging the 1's and 0's rather artfully? I'm in the 60p "camp", but if 30p can look this good, it's hard to argue too much... I've been plenty happy with the RX10 and RX100M2 for video use, it's actually surprising to see the bar raised so far so quickly - good times!

@Ken - I pulled up some of my RX10 video alongside the "Hello Kitty" video... I see what you mean... hmmm, RX10/100M2 still look pretty good, not much to quibble with, but 4K changes the expectation, even on "HD" screens! I think they will still intercut OK, with a little creativity, but now more than ever I'm wishing Sony had enabled 4K in the RX10...

>>Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

Cliff, I'm confused now (not surprising) about being able to use an external monitor while recording 4k. Ken had posted that his understanding was that no signal went out to HDMI while recording 4k. Then I found apparent confirmation of that in the .pdf manual, which says:

"While recording XAVC S 4K movies, you cannot output movies to an external monitor via an HDMI/video connection. Only the on-screen display is output (models with the 4K functionality)."

Are you saying you have actually seen it output to an external monitor via HDMI during 4K recording? If so, that is very good news because this capability is important to me. (I do see now in some recent posts that an alternative is to use wi-fi and the Sony app to monitor and control the camera with a tablet/phone while shooting 4k. That's a good alternative.)


I need to correct this. I made a HUGE mistake about this. Here is the evil truth:

When the AX100 is set for 4K, it's HDMI port outputs clean 1080 nicely. However, when you hit the "record" button, the camera actually SHUTS OF THE PORT!!!! So, you can watch what you want live on the HDMI, just don't hit the record button!

This one is dirty. I mean, what was Sony thinking? They show you clean 1080 right up until you start the recording and then suddenly pull it back??? Maybe it's a joke programmed by a rouge firmware engineer that Sony will repair on a future firmware release. Maybe Sony managers and testers missed this? Could this be just a simple "bug" or unintended "glitch" or one line of mistaken code?

I have seen dirty crippling tricks in my years but THIS one ranks up at the top. I love this camera so far but this petty stunt is a wonderful way to unnecessarily aggravate their precious customers.

It's not even a hidden, masked or covered cripple, it's a down right slap in the customer's face.

Ouch....that one stings and will leave a mark.

CT

Lucky owners of AX100, congratulations!
can anyone please post couple native files, low compression, day\low light?
thx!