Sony FDR-AX100 [Archive] - Page 30

Anthony Lelli

July 1st, 2014, 03:38 AM

Any "field reports" on the 2.0 firmware upgrade?

I've been fine with what I presume is 1.0... just wondering if the upgrade is a big or at least noticeable improvement... haven't gotten around to trying to "install" it yet!
Just did the installation of the 2.0 : all went well but it will reset the camera and you will see no sign of life during the entire process. so don't panic (like I did) if you see the lcd going blank, charging light blank. It will get back by itself once the process is done.
can't comment on the new features since I barely know the camera (bought it today as you know).
The update starts with few instructions on the screen of the computer. will check the USB connection (remember to set it as mass storage). Confirm on the LCD of the camera and will ask you to safely remove the usb (camera) from windows, then confirm on the LCD of the camera and it goes all blank while the update continues. Again don't panic, wait and don't disconnect the USB cable.
Let the update finish.

Under the 2.0 there is the firmware version in the menu, and I immediately checked if the multiport saw my vivitar remote and still does. Again under the 2.0 I see more hunting in low light (I mean the AF hunts) : it wasn't hunting that much with the previous firmware , but that could be a good sign because now I see that after hunting a little it gets the focus better. Unfortunately there are no settings for the speed of the AF , so for now I can only compare it with the XA20 (that has several setting for the AF speed) and it looks pretty much the same in terms of "getting it right". In real shooting you don't want the AF to be too fast because it will keep hunting like crazy: it has to be slow(ish) to move smooth from one point to another (new) point. For what I need it should be fine, but don't expect instant acquisition like still cameras do. I dont' see any zoom speed settings for the rocker , but it's there (achievable from a remote with selectable speeds via mutiport): so Sony decided to hide the feature believing that we didn't deserve it or to sell other cameras for more money . Same as usual, nothing new to see here....
You know the story of my remote but I'll repeat it for others who may be interested:
the Vivitar lanc remote works great via multiport and 10pin adapter cable. The vivitar comes with the 2.5mm to 10pin cable. I can confirm that a varizoom vzrock doesn't work, and a libec 3DV doesn't work as well. The good news is that the vivitar gives 8 constant zoom speeds selectable on the remote and while shooting plus a variable speed. so 9 speeds in total.
also gives on/off screen info for the lcd (while the hdmi monitor will still be clean).
a photo button
focus (manual) + and -
camera on and off from the remote
start and standby recording

note: at the slowest setting of the (constant) zoom speed (on the remote) now it gives a beautiful slow zoom , well done and thanks for hiding THAT, Sony. It took a 20bucks vivitar to get that beautiful thing (slow zoom is what I like most zooming, when I have to). So thanks to Vivitar and thanks for nuthing to Sony LOL

Anthony Lelli

July 1st, 2014, 04:52 AM

Any "field reports" on the 2.0 firmware upgrade?

I've been fine with what I presume is 1.0... just wondering if the upgrade is a big or at least noticeable improvement... haven't gotten around to trying to "install" it yet!
Dave what you think about this?
Sony Multi-Interface Shoe Adapter ADPMAA B&H Photo Video
then this one on top of it:
Standard Flash Hot Shoe Mount Adapter for Sony Camera A100 A200 A230 A290 A300 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/161041220714)

or something similar with a screw-ring

or this one?
www.ebay.com/itm/181451876737

it should be steady enough to hold a 4inch bar with standard shoe mount, no? .. let me know what you think, please

the other way (also seriously considering the next purchase of the XLR attachment) would be a bracket like this (and keep the multiport free for the xlr thing)
http://shop.dm-accessories.com/collections/sony-active-interface-shoe/products/wam36
and then drill a couple of holes to attach the XLR

the camera deserves our attention (no questions) but WHY we have to suffer like this to get a stupid light and a shotgun like everybody else? well, like you said we have to do what we have to do... LOL so be it.

Dave Blackhurst

July 1st, 2014, 04:34 PM

I can't think of a single Sony camera (at least under the consumer lineup) that has has anything other than the "2 speed" rocker, mirrored on Sony "remote" controls - you have to 'feather" to get slow, but it's there - I was able to get good control handheld with VF, but other configurations would be "harder" to keep the fine control.

I think I have an older variant of that Vivitar under another brand (they just buy the right to label a Chinese generic). Was a pretty compatible one as I recall, may have to get one just to try with the RX/AVM1 combo and see if by ANY chance it works! Probably won't, as the Cybershot MULTI is a bit of a mystery...

Now about that "really big shoe" problem!

The first two adapters you linked are for Alpha (the old proprietary Minolta mount), so NO, definitely not those!

The third one has been referenced on this thread previously... it would "work", but IMO the design needs modification (they are welcome to be invited to this thread to "borrow" my design ASAP!).

For some odd reason, I can't attach photos... neither in Chrome or IE, and just tried a second machine and another subforum....messaged Chris since it looks like there's a wider problem!

When I can again attach pix, I'll upload the whole instruction set, it's easy to make a VERY good adapter setup!

Anthony Lelli

July 1st, 2014, 07:10 PM

I think I have an older variant of that Vivitar under another brand (they just buy the right to label a Chinese generic). Was a pretty compatible one as I recall, may have to get one just to try with the RX/AVM1 combo and see if by ANY chance it works! Probably won't, as the Cybershot MULTI is a bit of a mystery...

this is the remote that works with the AX100 and the multi to 10pin cable
Vivitar 8 Button Remote Zoom Control for Camcorder w LANC or A V R Jack | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141289165170)
Vivitar comes with the 2.5mm to 10pin cable, don't know if the others do too (like ebenk for example). The vivitar is 20bucks so ... trust me, after that you'll zoom at the constant speed of your choice.
about the shoe I went for the bracket. I actually like it and will serve me also for future things
I'll attach the bracket to the camera, and then to a macro rail like this one
2 Way Fotomate LP 01 Macro Focusing Rail Slider for Canon Nikon Sony Pentax | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261515322401)

the rail helps balancing the camera on the tripod or on a shoulder mount. Actually I have it already mounted on both and then I attach the camera(s) using the same quick release (manfrotto).
In case don't buy the rail from ebay, but get it at adorama (it's the same, branded flashpoint).Butit gives both 1-4/20 and 3/8 screws, so I like the 3/8 better, plus the movements are tighter and again better
this is the link:
http://www.adorama.com/MCFRSS.html

thanks for your help!

P.S. about the vivitar 8-buttons remote: is fine as it is, but the zoom lever "clicks" and that's annoying. How to fix it:
it's easy. in the back there are tree screws (unpeal the sticker). open the unit and locate the two switches for the zoom. cut a piece of paper to cover both, then apply just 1 piece of gaffer's tape on top of the paper and the whole switches. close and enjoy: no more "clicks"

Dave Blackhurst

July 1st, 2014, 07:34 PM

Anthony Lelli

July 1st, 2014, 11:20 PM

Now you mention the clicking, I KNOW I had that remote, might still have it somewhere! I'll probably pick one up at the cheap price, couldn't hurt!

That bracket actually looks quite nice for the price - I typically use flash brackets, and the only one I've got that will "fit" is the ONLY one I've ever seen, or I would have recommended it! It's part of my "collection" of mounts/rigs if I need to go handheld, stuff I mostly retired when the "magic eyeball" appeared! Keeping the camera stable is more critical with 4K, so I'm digging in the bone pile!

I'll still post my adapter now I finally got the pix shot, just depends on when DVi will allow it again! It's an easy project, but there are times when I may want that MiShoe "available"!

I posted a few things a while back with no problem, so not sure why it's not working... I'm sure someone at mission control needs to flip a switch or something!
of course, please do that. attaching anything to that shoe can be risky if not done correctly: if you have a good option then please post it.
Now I see how 4K REALLY brings up all the defects with my technique. Any mistake is now clearly visible. Holding steady becomes crucial. Stability has been and always will be the first thing to worry about with any video, but in 4K becomes even more important. I shot an interview for fun and the face detection did a good job, but every movement of the camera is visible when you can count the facial hair of the talent (one by one), in 4K. I was handholding in purpose, but usually I mount on a shoulder support.
I didn't see any particular problem panning but the real test will be next week at a soccer game at night, where panning is frequent and people running fast will really put the camera to test. The bitrate should help keeping things togheter when panning but still I haven't decided if I want to shoot 30p 4K or 1080 60p. I'll set shutter priority 1/125 to stay safe. It's a new camera for me, lots of unknown and doubts but ehy...there's gotta be a first time for everything in life. let's hope for the best.

Dave Blackhurst

July 2nd, 2014, 03:06 AM

Yep, all that detail raises a few "issues"... not "unhappy" about it, it just is part of the package! From what I and others have found, keeping that shutter speed down helps give some "natural" motion blur that takes some of the stutter/shimmer/edge off the footage. Higher speeds you get a series of sharp stills though, which may hold some advantage in some shooting scenarios - still have more experimenting to do!

The lower shutter speeds also seem to help with RS/skew - you probably want to experiment with some whip pans before you go live fire, as skew can be pretty bad with "auto".

I ran some initial tests with the XAVCS 60p mode, it's definitely not as stunning as the 4K, but I'd rate it as quite usable - be aware that mode changes will change BOTH recording and playback, so your clips can seemingly "disappear" - don't worry, they are still there when you change modes again (freaked me out at first!).

Haven't heard back from Chris, but I've got the pix and instructions for a "bulletproof" shoe adapter ready when I can upload them!

Noa Put

July 2nd, 2014, 03:25 AM

I ran some initial tests with the XAVCS 60p mode, it's definitely not as stunning as the 4K, but I'd rate it as quite usable

It looks like when 4K came nothing else seems good enough anymore :) Anthony, if you plan to shoot soccergames and follow the players around from a tripd, shooting at 60p will be much better as opposed to 30p in 4K, no matter what the resolution is, 30p is actually a too slow framerate for fast action sports, you definitely would have to shoot at 60i or p (or 50i -p when you live in pal land)

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 07:51 AM

It looks like when 4K came nothing else seems good enough anymore :) Anthony, if you plan to shoot soccergames and follow the players around from a tripd, shooting at 60p will be much better as opposed to 30p in 4K, no matter what the resolution is, 30p is actually a too slow framerate for fast action sports, you definitely would have to shoot at 60i or p (or 50i -p when you live in pal land)
thanks noa,
I shoot from the press box, on tripod, so it's from above and from a distance (100-200feet)
here's what I usually do depending on the camera: if it's daylight then no problem (with any camera) so let's skip that. The challenge comes at night under the lights of the stadium.and depending on the stadium they can be uneven, poor or bright enough to let a decent shutter speed compensate the gain.
Again I'm only considering panning where I know that the shutter can't go below 1/100 but the bitrate makes a huge difference, and more than the framerate (30p or 60p do look almost the same for this particular shoot). As always with any cmos if you have to pan don't overdo with the zoom (closer you get and more problems you get panning, and that's obvious)

camera EX1r : 30p , 1/100 . very good (35mbps)
camera ea50 : the zoom is not good enough so I'll skip it (but the panning was good enough to be honest)
XA10 : 30p , 1/100 or 1/250 : good panning (28mbps) . 1/250 gets better everything but will be of course darker.
XA20 : 60p , 1/100 or 1/250 : very good panning but only on MP4 35mbps , avchd @28mbps are not so good, same settings and the XA10 was slightly better)

now it comes the AX100 at that unbelievable resolution: so who knows.. I'll try 4K the first half , then 1080 the second half. 1/125 should help and the higher bitrate should help too (on paper). I'm planning to try 1/180 as well.

I'll report back the results. For now any advice on the camera will be VERY welcome :)

P.S. the stills guys (who shoot from the field) all use shutter priority of 1/500 minimum , ASA 3200 or 6400 with the new cameras so for them it will be 2.8 all the time. Note the 1/500 minimum!

Noa Put

July 2nd, 2014, 08:04 AM

The ax100 resolution won't help in getting smooth pans, a high framerate does, 25 or 30p will give you a stuttery motion if you pan too fast, it won't be visible on the players you follow but you will notice it in the background.

Bruce Dempsey

July 2nd, 2014, 08:18 AM

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 08:56 AM

and that Noa is the key to this whole thing for single player sports like figureskating and even american style football. The subjects are held full frame in the centre of the image. What goes on in the background is never noticed. stutters arn't observable because the background is motion blurred anyway. Soccer is probably different however due to the prevelant extremely wide shots encompassing every one on the field

Hi Bruce,
I'm going to shoot AX100 waiting for the FZ1000

Noa
I'm running tests right now (it's sunny daylight here in NYC, so the tests are not really significant for what I need)

And I'm getting even more confused LOL

out of curiosity I'm keeping the XA20 as a reference because that's the camera that did all the work so far and I know the results)

108060p MP4 @35mbps can't even get close to the same settings of the AX100 . yeah, they are THAT better. As for panning they are the same

BUT

4K is on another planet , 30p and you're right, panning will be a serious challenge.

but again the resolution is IMPRESSIVE. like HD vs SD pretty much

WOW . got the camera yesterday and I didn't expect THAT KIND of beauty.

so here where I am right now: I'm willing to change my shooting style to accommodate the AX100 in 4K . I'll do anything to keep the 4K , anything. Even tie the handles of the tripod if I have to. LOL

Noa Put

July 2nd, 2014, 09:20 AM

and that Noa is the key to this whole thing for single player sports like figureskating and even american style football.

That's the key when you shoot feature films where you either pan slowly or follow a subject to take the attention away from the background but I don't know of any multiplayer sport, like soccer, where they take closeups from one player and follow him constantly around. I don't know if you ever have shot soccergames, I did and 25p is useless, you get that strobing stuttering kind of effect that is very distracting, something that is no issue if you shoot 50i or 50p. I don't know if you watch the current worldseries soccer games in Brazil, those are very smooth images which can't be achieved in 25p and I"m sure they use high framerate camera's to show very slomo replays as those are very smooth as well, just try to slow down 25p by 50%, that looks like a slideshow, that's the only thing I don't like about shooting in 4K now and that's that it does not have 50P as a option. You can always shoot at 1080p 50p which will be better then 4K at 25p with the ax100 for fast moving sports, something I would do if I had to cover such an event.

Bruce Dempsey

July 2nd, 2014, 09:20 AM

Hi Bruce,
I'm going to shoot AX100 waiting for the FZ1000
LOL

Exciting times Anthony

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 09:34 AM

That's the key when you shoot feature films where you either pan slowly or follow a subject to take the attention away from the background but I don't know of any multiplayer sport, like soccer, where they take closeups from one player and follow him constantly around. I don't know if you ever have shot soccergames, I did and 25p is useless, you get that strobing stuttering kind of effect that is very distracting, something that is no issue if you shoot 50i or 50p. I don't know if you watch the current worldseries soccer games in Brazil, those are very smooth images which can't be achieved in 25p and I"m sure they use high framerate camera's to show very slomo replays as those are very smooth as well, just try to slow down 25p by 50%, that looks like a slideshow, that's the only thing I don't like about shooting in 4K now and that's that it does not have 50P as a option. You can always shoot at 1080p 50p which will be better then 4K at 25p with the ax100 for fast moving sports, something I would do if I had to cover such an event.

oh I see. No , Im shooting the official coverage of the game from the above, main camera and 1 camera only. I never close-up on a single player but I keep always 1/3rd of the field to show the play. The close-ups are done with more dedicated cameras, usually on the field. I'm doing it for years , sometimes even 4 games a week
4K is not THAT bad panning, not even at 30p. Sure it takes more care but again I'm willing to do anything to produce 4K. ANYTHING

Noa Put

July 2nd, 2014, 09:46 AM

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 09:59 AM

That's the point I"m trying to make, "4K" does not have anything to do with getting a stuttery motion when doing a fast pan, the framerate does. You get better results shooting at 1080p 50p then 4K at 25p in such a case.

not really. anything that moves in the viefinder and the shutter speed gets the spotlight as the main actor. then the bitrate and then the framerate. So in the order shutter , bitrate because it's digital out of a cmos sensor, and last the framerate for moving targets.
panning adds more stuff to the plate , but if you don't get it right with the shutter speed first and a decent bitrate recording then everything will move in your frame.

Noa Put

July 2nd, 2014, 10:05 AM

You are forgetting rolling shutter where I have seen some pretty bad examples from the ax100 so that will be fun following fast moving subjects, but at least it's in 4K, so no problem right? :)

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 01:00 PM

You are forgetting rolling shutter where I have seen some pretty bad examples from the ax100 so that will be fun following fast moving subjects, but at least it's in 4K, so no problem right? :)

yes the rolling shutter gets more visible with the AX100 in 4K but if you add regular "movements" due to a slow shutter speed then you'll get the best of the two worlds in one shot.

that said what the AX100 can do in 4K is way past my best hopes. It's something close to amazing. Will make my footage of that game stand out and beat the competition LOL

about the AX100 I saw some posts talking about how bad is 1080p ? and where THAT comes from? compared to the XA20 the 1080p of the AX100 could pass for 4K in comparison if it wasn't that the camera surpasses every single camera that I know of in the real 4K. But 1080 is great, way better than XA20 (no match, hands down)

Dave Blackhurst

July 2nd, 2014, 01:11 PM

I don't have "huge" experience with the AX100 (who does, right?!), but let me try to "sort" a few things out.

I was concerned with skew/RS, as there have been some seriously skewed videos posted.... we all know it's a CMOS issue, BUT here's what I noticed using the VF - skew was more noticeable as shutter speeds were higher, 30p is "worse" than 1080/60p, which is actually about the same as my PJ7xx series when apples to apples are compared. SO that's part of the shooting equation... Take a little time looking through the VF while fiddling with settings and waving the camera about, you'll find the RS/skew is HIGHLY variable, and manageable.

Now the "stills" photogs were mentioned, along with a FAST 1/500 "minimum" shutter speed - the reason for that is that the STILLS guy is trying to "freeze" a perfectly sharp image, preferably with a nicely shallow fuzzy background - a "capture" of the moment as it were... You know, drops of sweat and grimmaces and all... frozen!

My first tests of the AX100 let the camera run "auto", and in bright summer sun, the shutter was also "fast", the results being 30 sharp images per second, and NOTICEABLE "stutter" in the VF and sometimes onscreen on playback - the "shimmer" and "stutter" some complain about seems to stem from this super sharp series of what are effectively STILLS due to high shutter speed! This can allow you to "frame grab" effectively, and of course looks "super sharp", but you run into temporal motion "artifacting" which can range from minor to horrific - if you turn up "sharpness" on the display, the pulsing can be nauseating!

SO, here's the flip side as "video dudes" - our goal is to capture MOTION naturally (see where this is going yet?) - after realizing that the super sharp stills caused fast motion to look "funny", I started fiddling with shutter speed (thank goodness this is a pretty well designed "manual" camera!). The slower that shutter speed, the more "motion blur" will enter in the exposure period of EACH frame as whatever is moving will move THROUGH the frame and NOT be "frozen". Pausing video shot at slower shutters confirms that now there is a degree of motion blur, not "30 sharp stills".

THAT said, I haven't experimented enough to know what the "magic" shutter speed is, 30 seems a little TOO low (except in low light, where you NEED the added sensitivity from the shutter being open longer), but 60-125 seems to look pretty "natural" on playback (no stutter, minimal "shimmer" in high detail). The motion blur also seems to make the skew less objectionable, bonus points!

Ken posted pretty much the system I ended up with - set the shutter manually to what "feels" right, and lock it in - set the wheel to "exposure" so you can override the camera if needed to boost or cut exposure, use the ND's as desired/needed to balance Iris/iso/gain. Use a negative AE shift if exposure is too "hot", as is typically needed on Sony cameras. I shot this method at an amusement park, and the footage was still stunning, with nice natural "motion blur" when there was fast action. I would have preferred a tripod/monopod to help keep the camera stable, but was travelling light.

Hope that will help with the initial learning curve! And yes, even the first auto tests were QUITE good, temporal artifacts and all! This camera will spoil you VERY quickly, and yes you will desire to shoot EVERYTHING in 4K - try not to forget that you will likely DELIVER in 1080, remember that you can "frame wide" and pan/crop in post (added work, but an option). If slow mo is desired, remember the camera has other "modes", with attendant resolution loss, but... they are available.

Enjoy!!

Inevitably I'm sure you'll all be dealing with how to process and display 4K, so I should mention that I saw the Seiki 39" 4K TV on ebay for $360/offer, shipped... apparently new, no less! It's not "great", but with tweaking, I'm happy enough with it, it changes things to be able to actually SEE stills and video from these cameras (RX10 stills took on a whole other quality!). You of course need computer/graphics capable of 4K, but I'm using on motherboard Intel graphics, seems adequate! It's ALL 30p of course...

Haven't tried uploading, and I think Chris is enjoying the 4th! But I won't forget to upload the adapter pics when the opportunity arises.

Dave Blackhurst

July 2nd, 2014, 01:36 PM

It's not that the 1080/60p/50Mbps XAVCS is "bad", it's actually noticeably better than 1080/60p/28Mbps AVCHD, it would have been a perfect "incremental improvement" by itself (thus the RX100M3, GRRRR, no 4K!)

It's just that "how you going to keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen 4k?" (couldn't resist!). The "looking through a window" effect just makes everything else seem "soft"!

Ultimately, the average viewer on a typical screen maybe wouldn't see a big difference, but for a content producer, we have to look at this "stuff", and it's pretty obvious what you get with the 4K... all naysayers aside.

Yeah, we have the question of "how to deliver end product", there aren't that many "cheap" 4K TV's and monitors, but as Peter pointed out, there are more and more super high resolution SMALL displays, and they look really good.

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 01:37 PM

Bruce Dempsey

July 2nd, 2014, 01:59 PM

do you stream these games live Anthony?
Maybe we could watch

Dave Blackhurst

July 2nd, 2014, 02:15 PM

Higher frame rates do "add value" to the equation, at least in respect to smoother temporal motion. BUT, as a practical matter, when dealing with 4K... the AX100 is 30p, the Intel graphics chip is 30p, and the Seiki TV is 30p... not like I have ANY choice for higher framerates there on my "budget"...

2-3 years on, we will likely have 4K/240p/1 MillionMbps or whatever (or at least 4K/60p anyhow), but for now, it's "learn the limitations, shoot within them, enjoy 4K!"... I'll take it, since I am using "old" cards to record on with no prob, my "budget" computer and monitor/TV work, and it all looks good without breaking the piggy bank too badly!

The higher bitrate XAVCS is always there for a fallback if you run into problems with a specific shoot, I'm almost tempted to pick up a cheap CX900 for that reason, but if the AX100's come down... I know I myself am very disinclined to buy any "new" camera that doesn't have 4K, and the current ones with 1080/60p AVCHD really don't look THAT bad... except when compared to the AX100 4K! I suppose it's relative!

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 03:19 PM

Peter Siamidis

July 2nd, 2014, 04:33 PM

oh yeah. I'm thinking of the 4K transition like it was with the HD compared to the VHS (I mean SD) . Im sure that by then the same guys who had a look at HD said exactly what we're saying now about the 4K
now. Back then everybody was saying "I don't need no stupid HD, there are no TV sets for that, I'm fine with my XL1!". Yeah right, look at them now LOL

Absolutely, I went through this very thing myself. 9 years ago when I started my websites I decide to film in full 1920x1080 hd from the start and people thought I was nuts at the time. Now their SD content looks horrible, whereas I have 9 years worth of 1920x1080 content that still looks pretty good. It was totally worth it, and I feel the same about 4k now, it's a no brainer to me and I'll never go back to 1080p.

On a separate note, I had a question about something I notice when I film in the garage area of my film house which has florescent lights. I notice what can best be described as "stripes" on the display and in the final recordings. They are faint, but they are there and I presume they are due to some weird frequency issue with the florescent lights. Is there any way to correct this, like are there special film safe florescent lights that can be used? They are the typical in ceiling long tube florescent lights which is cool because I can film 360 degrees without worrying about filming my own lighting gear, but I hope that stripe issue has a solution.

Anthony Lelli

July 2nd, 2014, 09:08 PM

Absolutely, I went through this very thing myself. 9 years ago when I started my websites I decide to film in full 1920x1080 hd from the start and people thought I was nuts at the time. Now their SD content looks horrible, whereas I have 9 years worth of 1920x1080 content that still looks pretty good. It was totally worth it, and I feel the same about 4k now, it's a no brainer to me and I'll never go back to 1080p.

On a separate note, I had a question about something I notice when I film in the garage area of my film house which has florescent lights. I notice what can best be described as "stripes" on the display and in the final recordings. They are faint, but they are there and I presume they are due to some weird frequency issue with the florescent lights. Is there any way to correct this, like are there special film safe florescent lights that can be used? They are the typical in ceiling long tube florescent lights which is cool because I can film 360 degrees without worrying about filming my own lighting gear, but I hope that stripe issue has a solution.

Peter
Im sorry but Ive got the camera yesterday, I'll let dave or others with more experience answer that

Dave,
ran more tests with evening lights and the 4K panning will be a challenge. I'll shoot 4 anyway , at least the first half.
But the reason why I'm telling you this is because it doesn't match, the whole thing doesn't match. let's say that again I compared the 1080 of both the XA20 and AX100 and the sony did better, also panning. Now the limitation of the 4K panning starts smelling funny to me. Was it intentional? It is exaggerated , doesn't look "normal" to me.

well, you know how much I "love" the marketing at sony's, so maybe Im being a little "defensive" here, but come on... it doesn't look right.

anyway I'll keep the XA100 and after the first game I'll take a closer look at the AX1 (no face detection and that would be a problem for me because I do lots of interviews and I'm not going back to manual!). But I want to see if 2.5K more magically cured the panning thingy.

Wacharapong Chiowanich

July 3rd, 2014, 12:01 AM

............but I hope that stripe issue has a solution.
Not sure about the version of the AX100 you're using but on my PAL, AX100E, version I remember having the range of usable shutters for shooting 4K like 1/25, 1/30, 1/50, 1/60, 1/80, 1/100......and faster but hardly usable especially in slow frame rate 4K due to the judder and flicker problems. I suppose your normal shutter is 1/60 for your camera's 30fps frame rate then you can try varying the shutter slower or faster in either direction and see if the striping goes away. Of course you have to also vary the iris or gain to compensate for that or even the speed of your camera movement if the required shutter is a little too extreme. If that still doesn't help I'm afraid you have to avoid that scene or at least change the light. The refreshment cycle would probably not be in sync with your camera's frame rates.

One thing I absolutely agree with Anthony about shooting 4K with this camera is getting good image is very unforgiving. You can't just get by with a lousy or even less than precise shooting technique. I haven't shot a single handheld cilp that would be considered stable enough similar to countless 1080p shots I could normally get from any of my small form factor Sony HD handycams. Good god the AF and zooming are very good. Though the AF may be a bit slow but it's always precise, hardly hunts and the focus transition is smooth. The zoom speed may not be fast enough for some people but the zooming action is smooth with no wiggles or wobbles.

It will take some practice to get it right for this new 4K thing. I foresee either a tripod, monopod or steadicam will be an essential accessory to this camera.

Dave Blackhurst

July 3rd, 2014, 03:47 AM

@Peter -
I've seen that "ghost" band that creeps down the screen with my garage flos, and with what I think were some nasty old mercury halide lights in a gym.... you notice it when you have a large "solid" color area, and will see a slightly darker band slowly creep down across the screen...

I suspect playing with shutter speed may help, I'm sure it's a function of the 60 cycle A/C and perhaps cheap ballasts, but it might be worth asking in the lighting section? LED or incandescent fills are what I'd suggest, and avoiding large expanses of single color!

@Anthony -
Remember that in 1080, they probably toss at least "some" of the data, but with 4K, they have to keep more...there's a certain amount of unavoidable lag in the sensor reads, and it gets worse with 4K, based on how the camera performs, my guess is that is what is happening - The "Bionz X" is a newer faster processor, but may still be a little short on horesepower - I definitely get the feeling that the engineers were pushing the limits a bit in this camera... it's not an evil scheme, just physics being a fickle mistress!

A possible partial solution is to frame wider than you otherwise might, hopefully minimizing background movement (where skew is most noticeable) by panning a bit less. Pan/crop in post... In theory this should also reduce the number crunching required (less changes in the frame to account for). Not "ideal", but one way to use the added resolution to our advantage, instead of our frustration!

In time, one can assume that electronic designs and processors will improve to better deal with this sort of thing. This is not the first time I've seen "physics" issues of this sort, that can only be overcome with faster number crunching, better circuitry design, and new algorithms...

I found using the viewfinder helped a LOT with handheld stability, my technique went south fast with the LCD, and I too would concur that proper support is far more critical with 4K... digging out old rigs, picked up a new monopod I'd been looking at for a long time, and planning to take SOMETHING for additional support if at all possible! The results justify the extra gear.

Ron Evans

July 3rd, 2014, 05:56 AM

Peter

Dave,
ran more tests with evening lights and the 4K panning will be a challenge. I'll shoot 4 anyway , at least the first half.
But the reason why I'm telling you this is because it doesn't match, the whole thing doesn't match. let's say that again I compared the 1080 of both the XA20 and AX100 and the sony did better, also panning. Now the limitation of the 4K panning starts smelling funny to me. Was it intentional? It is exaggerated , doesn't look "normal" to me.

.

The sharper the image the more obvious a slow frame rate. 4K images are sharper than 1920x1080 so even at the same frame rate will exaggerate the stutter of 30P very clear in panning. In auto, if the AX100 is like most Sony's it will increase the shutter speed making the problem worse. Manual control of shutter speed to get the motion blur one expects from 50i or 60i is noticeably different to a slower or faster shutter speed ( at least on my FDR-AX1 ). Use ND's to maintain exposure.

Ron Evans

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 08:36 AM

The sharper the image the more obvious a slow frame rate. 4K images are sharper than 1920x1080 so even at the same frame rate will exaggerate the stutter of 30P very clear in panning. In auto, if the AX100 is like most Sony's it will increase the shutter speed making the problem worse. Manual control of shutter speed to get the motion blur one expects from 50i or 60i is noticeably different to a slower or faster shutter speed ( at least on my FDR-AX1 ). Use ND's to maintain exposure.

Ron Evans
thanks Ron,
for me the shutter speed of choice would be 1/125 , so I'm testing the difference between 1/125 and 1/60. I'll be shooting (professional) soccer players running fast , actions like a corner kick following the ball , or a goalkeeper kicking to the opposite side again following the ball, cases where I have to pan, I just have to. While I see a slight difference @1/60 compared to 1/125 still it wouldn't be enough to add the blur of the targets running to the panning of the 4K. In other words I'll have to balance between the two bad things :)
As always we have the tool and we make it work, but at least in here we can open our mouth and bitch a little about it LOL

Ron Evans

July 3rd, 2014, 08:51 AM

I really don't think 30P will do what you want for your application. There is a reason sports networks use 60P for HD broadcasts. 60P was the reason I got the FDR-AX1 too.

Ron Evans

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 08:58 AM

I really don't think 30P will do what you want for your application. There is a reason sports networks use 60P for HD broadcasts. 60P was the reason I got the FDR-AX1 too.

Ron Evans

well , maybe you mean the 30p of the 4K of the AX100 , right? Because Ive been shooting 30p the same soccer games with a sony EX1r for two years with no problem whatsoever panning.
and back we go to the AX100 and the need of spending 2.5K more for the facedetectionless ax1 .
Now it may make some sense (from the marketing point of view at Sony's I mean)

Ken Ross

July 3rd, 2014, 09:52 AM

Adam Gold

July 3rd, 2014, 10:29 AM

... cases where I have to pan, I just have to....With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

With all due respect.

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 10:30 AM

Anthony, I think if you had no issues with 30p in the past, you'll have no issues with the 30p of the AX100. I would try to stay as wide as possible when panning quickly to minimize the RS issue. But depending on what's in your FOV (straight lines that are obvious to the viewer), the RS may not be much of an issue one way or the other.

I try to keep my shutter locked at 1/60th, but I can see the possibility of 1/125 working better in your application.

Thanks Ken,
I believe that it will work too, with lots of care and attentions, and I'll do exactly what you said by the way. Still this is a problem with the processing in the camera. Let's stop finding excuses like the 30p or the shutter speed because it's not. The difference between 1/60 , 1/125 and 1/180 are miniscule: it's not the speed and it's not the framerate: now it may be the incompetence of the engineers (but I don't think so) or most likely some intentional limitation (that I believe way more, getting all my bets at the moment). Because Ken these people make video cameras for a living :) They can't possibly come out with a model very good at stills but you can't move anything because it will screw up the whole thing. That's amateurish, not even teenagers work like that. Expect laughs from us, because we are not THAT stupid after all.

/rant off

that said I'm with Dave about this: we have the gear and we make it work.

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 10:34 AM

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

With all due respect.

yeah , the ex1 and r and xa10 don't have 60p and work fine panning. so, what now?

I work every once in a while as a backup in a major thing in the live music video industry , and your framerate pales compared to the processing they get.those things mostly software cost an arm and a leg. and come in the form of a truckload of equipment. now you were saying about the 60p and 30p? LOL
come on.... that's for teens telling other teens which toy car runs faster

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 11:56 AM

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

Actually I'm about to re-consider the whole thing here. Regardless about "broadcast stuff" needed to perform or 30p shutter, now I'm thinking about if there is room for a class thing against the manufacturer here. Given that's a bad processing, now the buyer when bought the camera (buyers usually do that) then he/she had a reasonable expectation that it would've been able to use it for what it says on the back of the LCD and the box: 4K in motion and not just stills, correct? stills are for still cameras, not camcorders, correct?

hmmm . I believe that the combination of price and advertisement gave that reasonable expectation.
yes, there may be room for a good solid class thingy here.

see? regardless of the "broadcast" and similar.
it's da processing, in there that needs to be recalled or refund.

Ken Ross

July 3rd, 2014, 12:26 PM

Thanks Ken,
I believe that it will work too, with lots of care and attentions, and I'll do exactly what you said by the way. Still this is a problem with the processing in the camera. Let's stop finding excuses like the 30p or the shutter speed because it's not. The difference between 1/60 , 1/125 and 1/180 are miniscule: it's not the speed and it's not the framerate: now it may be the incompetence of the engineers (but I don't think so) or most likely some intentional limitation (that I believe way more, getting all my bets at the moment). Because Ken these people make video cameras for a living :) They can't possibly come out with a model very good at stills but you can't move anything because it will screw up the whole thing. That's amateurish, not even teenagers work like that. Expect laughs from us, because we are not THAT stupid after all.

/rant off

that said I'm with Dave about this: we have the gear and we make it work.

We agree, you work within the limitations of the camera as we do with all cameras. But I do believe that most of the AX100 limitations are the result of 30p if the intent is to shoot a smooth action video or sports related video. I really haven't noticed limitations other than 30p in achieving the desired end result.

I think most of us agree that RS is just not the issue that some made us think it was with their wild waving of the camera back & forth. That's not to say we shouldn't be cognizant of RS, but I think 30p is far more of a limitation than either RS or anything to do with processing.

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 02:19 PM

We agree, you work within the limitations of the camera as we do with all cameras. But I do believe that most of the AX100 limitations are the result of 30p if the intent is to shoot a smooth action video or sports related video. I really haven't noticed limitations other than 30p in achieving the desired end result.

I think most of us agree that RS is just not the issue that some made us think it was with their wild waving of the camera back & forth. That's not to say we shouldn't be cognizant of RS, but I think 30p is far more of a limitation than either RS or anything to do with processing.

absolutely not. It's the processing. 30p and 60p are close, there is a difference but not to explain the building across the street curving like a cartoon at the very first slow panning. come on. Everybody now can build a nice digital still camera but the AX100 is advertised as a camcorder. Sony Sony ... that's not good, not good at all. Do the right thing: recall the camera and try again , this time with motion in mind and not just stills.

Noa Put

July 3rd, 2014, 03:04 PM

There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

That's what I have been saying all along but if one keeps insisting you can shoot fast moving soccer games with fast pans in 30p with no issue, then they have been choosing a wrong framerate to start with. Saying you hardly see any difference between 25p/50p or 30p/60p is also nonsense, unless you do a creeping slow pan but any faster pan will show a big difference. Combine 30p with the awful rolling shutter of the ax100 in 4K and you have the worst possible image you can get. That rolling shutter btw doesn't have to be a problem, for me it won't be an issue because all my shots are nice controlled from a tripod with slow pans, but when you insist in shooting soccer games in 4K and 30p with a ax100, that's about the worst choice you can make.

Anthony; you don't have to take any advise that's been given here of course and you can continue to blame Sony for whatever they do wrong to you but for me it would be simple, want to shoot a soccer game? shoot 1080p 60p.

Anthony Lelli

July 3rd, 2014, 03:19 PM

That's what I have been saying all along but if one keeps insisting you can shoot fast moving soccer games with fast pans in 30p with no issue, then they have been choosing a wrong framerate to start with. Saying you hardly see any difference between 25p/50p or 30p/60p is also nonsense, unless you do a creeping slow pan but any faster pan will show a big difference. Combine 30p with the awful rolling shutter of the ax100 in 4K and you have the worst possible image you can get. That rolling shutter btw doesn't have to be a problem, for me it won't be an issue because all my shots are nice controlled from a tripod with slow pans, but when you insist in shooting soccer games in 4K and 30p with a ax100, that's about the worst choice you can make.

Anthony; you don't have to take any advise that's been given here of course and you can continue to blame Sony for whatever they do wrong to you but for me it would be simple, want to shoot a soccer game? shoot 1080p 60p.
Ive been shooting 30P with EX1 , EX1r and XA10 for years.

60P came out yesterday, and of course makes things a little easier, but just a littler bit easier. The problem with the AX100 is the processing. It was a mistake, or intentional. nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with the 30p. With this kind of amateurish processing even if it had 2000p would be bad. What I can do (and I will) is to try an external recorder over hdmi . I don't need comments on something that has been done for years in 30p and Im not going to discuss 30p anymore.