Sony User Tries Canon HV20

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 10:23 AM

1. If there is any one impression I come way with after the first day with the HV20, it is the amazement that everything they have has been fit in such a small package. Of course that been the direction of things in video, we can expect this to continue.

2. The small size creates issues for me, though. I have large hands, and I am a "bull in the china shop" type, so working on the smaller scale does have its disadvantages. Vs. the FX1, the screen provided for focusing is not enough, though even the FX1 creates issues for my "old eyes". To me, smaller isn't better at age 57.

3. Focus: Assuming you put this camera in manual focus mode, it is a challenge to use the focus wheel. I tried to see the effects of manipulating it in the LCD, but had a very difficult time of it. You need a fairly large object of focus to be able to see what you are doing. Ultimately, I'm thinking this camera will be in auto focus or instant auto focus, most of the time.

4. Teleextender: I did briefly use a teleextender, using a step up ring I bought from BH. I bought two step up rings, because I have a 72mm achromat, but in this case, the teleextender I was using on the FX1 was only a 58mm. The teleextender on the HV20 provides nearly full zoom capability, and I think will actually provide a better result on the HV20, than the FX1. More to test there in the future.

5. Exposure controls: At first, the exposure controls with joy stick were confusing, as to be expected. But I finally got it down pretty well, and assuming I want to have my shutter as priority, I have learned to set it at the speed I want it, and adjust from there with the "exposure" adjustment with the "joy stick". While the read out does not explain what is happening, I assume that by adjusting exposure in priority shutter priority mode you are adjusting aperature, maybe neutral density filtering, and gain. I am unclear as to this, but maybe someone knows. I did also discover how to engage zebras. I think that is a must, because it looks like to me that the HV20 will blow out pretty quickly. For those who haven't seen it, the camera maxes out at F8, and a low side F 1.8 at wide angle. I think the highest shutter speed I saw in the book was 1/2000, though that is through auto mode only. I don't currently recall if that is available on the manual shutter priority mode. I seem to remember it only goes to 1/500 there, but don't hold me to it.

6. 35mm Adapter: I continue to try adapting this camera to the 35mm adapter I self built. One point of using such a camera is to reduce size, and make it truly hand held. But the issue of critical focus is coming into play, in my early work. My first attempts convinced me that I needed an achromat. However, with some testing I did this morning before I came to work, I found some hope that I may be wrong about that, and some adjustment to the adapter may resolve that. I do think that what ever happens, I may have to rely on the instant auto focus to actually find the focus on the ground glass. Use of the focus wheel/ with the lcd is just not going to go very well for me.

7. Viewfinder: "Stinks" is the word that comes to mind. It is not intended to help focus, only frame your shot at best. And the slide to adjust the focus to your eyes is right next to the eyepiece, and you cannot adjust, while you are looking through it. So you adjust it look in the viewfinder, adjust it again, until, by trial and error, you have hit something close.

Troy Davis · April 5th, 2007, 11:51 AM

Hi Chris,

I currently own the sony vx2000 and vx2100. I'm currently looking for a good 3rd camera and was looking at the HC7 and HV2. I mostly shoot weddings and other events wanted a cam that would match up pretty close in post as well as support the HD format. Which of the two cams do you think would be the best choice based on your testing? Btw, the 3rd cam will mostly be used for balcony and center aisle shots.

Thanks,
Troy

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 01:07 PM

Hi Troy:

Both the cameras will shoot DV, as I understand it, and even in a 4:3 format, like the VX/PD series. If you are shooting 16:9 with the PD/VX cams, I think you will see an improved picture in the either of these. The real issue, the way I see it, is the light in the facility. I think the HV20 will give a bit better low light performance, per reputation. I don't have the HC to compare to. I do know the HV20 does better in low light when set at 24p, and I confirmed that last night while working with my 35mm adapter.

The real danger of shooting with buying an HDV camera is that you will want to shoot it just to see how it works, and soon, you lose satisfaction with your SD look.... be warned there.... And I believe either of the cameras you mention are capable of bringing about that dissatisfaction.

Dave Blackhurst · April 5th, 2007, 01:59 PM

Hi Troy -
Heed Chris's warning... you will buy one, and end up wanting more <wink>. HD is seductive.

Jury is still out on low light, CNet review just panned the HV20 for bad low light, recommended the HC7... while CCI said the opposite...

I'm testing the HC7 right now, and I'm impressed overall. I don't think the "field reviews" of the HV20 can be interpreted as anything much less than glowing, so I don't think you'll be "dissapointed" with either one, and you'll have a great small form factor camera when you don't want to lug the big guns.

As far as post, I think you'll find it challenging - I did ONE wedding with a mix of SD and HD cameras - if you're a CC wizard, or the angles are different enough, it probably won't be a big problem, but be aware the single CMOS cams look quite a bit different (better IMO) than the old standby 3CCD cams...

I'd toss a coin and get one, or if you have a couple extra coins, get both... I went with an HC7 initially as it was "upgrading" an HC3 and compatibility was an issue, but the HV20 looks like a great camera too. Tough choices!

DB>)

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 02:38 PM

I had to convert and resize all the grabs from .bmps, but are eight more to look at. The FX1 bird picture was actually done with a Cinema effect on, so comparison there is not full auto to full auto.

Dave Blackhurst · April 5th, 2007, 02:41 PM

Hi Chris -
Does the HV20 have an "AE" adjustment like the Sony cams? I know I tend to either set the auto exposure down 2-3 notches or adjust manually with the Sony cams. I figure Canon should also have a way to adjust?

DB>)

Troy Davis · April 5th, 2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.

Both look great! I'm sure there's a way to ajust the iris on the HV20, right?

Also, is it true that XLR can be used with the HV20 and not the HC7?

Thanks,
Troy

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 02:50 PM

Not in full auto mode. But if you switch to non-full auto, you can select Program AE, which does allow modification up and down. But you don't know what is being altered, gain, shutter speed, or aperature. It does definitely affect exposure...

Eric Sipe · April 5th, 2007, 03:09 PM

Are you able to compare the HV20 with an a1 directly? for "outdoor" nature shots? which would be better? or how well does the hv20 compare?

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 03:22 PM

Sorry, don't have A1, but my feeling is Canon A1 and Sony FX1 are very similar in chip configuration. I ve done a bit of outdoor with the FX1 at a nature preserve here locally, and I will take the HV20 out today or tomorrow, and be able to give you some idea there. I would certainly be shooting in a mode that I could control blow outs, most like "TV" which give priority to shutter speed. One thing I haven't run across is a ND filter change capability, and I assume that there is no access to that on board the camera. They do show screw ons in their accessories.

Chris Barcellos · April 5th, 2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Davis

Both look great! I'm sure there's a way to ajust the iris on the HV20, right?

Also, is it true that XLR can be used with the HV20 and not the HC7?

Thanks,
Troy

Yes. You can shoot in a shutter priorty or aperature priority mode. In aperature priority mode, you can adjust from F1.8 (or 2.5 I think in full telephoto) to F8. That is extent of it. When you adjust those, the camera then adjust shutter speed automatically. Then, you go to the "joy stick" and adjust exposure further to try to match get your blow outs off screen, using the zebras. If in aperature priority, the adjustment is being made with the shutter, and gain, or any other non-aperature adjustment available.

You don't get to know what is happening in those adjustments, and at what speed the shutter is shooting.....

Ken Ross · April 5th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.

Interesting shots. From those shots the color and detail really look better on the HV20, but the FX1 does do a better job holding the highlights.

Eric Sipe · April 5th, 2007, 05:27 PM

now are these digital stills from the camera or are these "Screen" caps of the "non compressed" film?

Dennis Vogel · April 5th, 2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

2. The small size creates issues for me, though. I have large hands, and I am a "bull in the china shop" type, so working on the smaller scale does have its disadvantages. Vs. the FX1, the screen provided for focusing is not enough, though even the FX1 creates issues for my "old eyes". To me, smaller isn't better at age 57.

Have you tried the focus assist? The review at camcorderinfo says it helps by enlarging the image (double) and peaking to help focus. The review liked it quite a bit.

Quote:

3. Focus: Assuming you put this camera in manual focus mode, it is a challenge to use the focus wheel. I tried to see the effects of manipulating it in the LCD, but had a very difficult time of it. You need a fairly large object of focus to be able to see what you are doing. Ultimately, I'm thinking this camera will be in auto focus or instant auto focus, most of the time.

Your experience matches the CCI review; namely the focus wheel is a joke. All Canon had to do was out a focus ring on the lens barrel and they would have blown the HC7 out of the water. Again, the Focus Assist might help. If you've tried it let us know how well it works for you. There are plenty of us with "older" eyes who are wondering how difficult it will be to manual focus on the tiny 2.7" LCD.

Quote:

5. Exposure controls: ... I assume that by adjusting exposure in priority shutter priority mode you are adjusting aperature, maybe neutral density filtering, and gain.

If I understand the CCI review correctly, there is no independent control over gain with the HV20.

Quote:

7. Viewfinder: "Stinks" is the word that comes to mind. It is not intended to help focus, only frame your shot at best. And the slide to adjust the focus to your eyes is right next to the eyepiece, and you cannot adjust, while you are looking through it. So you adjust it look in the viewfinder, adjust it again, until, by trial and error, you have hit something close.

Again, the CCI review downgraded the HV20 for it's viewfinder. In particular, if you attach a larger battery you will have a very difficult time even looking through it. All they had to do was make it slide out. HV30 maybe?

Good luck.

Dennis

April 5th, 2007, 10:23 AM	#31
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Impression after Day One 1. If there is any one impression I come way with after the first day with the HV20, it is the amazement that everything they have has been fit in such a small package. Of course that been the direction of things in video, we can expect this to continue. 2. The small size creates issues for me, though. I have large hands, and I am a "bull in the china shop" type, so working on the smaller scale does have its disadvantages. Vs. the FX1, the screen provided for focusing is not enough, though even the FX1 creates issues for my "old eyes". To me, smaller isn't better at age 57. 3. Focus: Assuming you put this camera in manual focus mode, it is a challenge to use the focus wheel. I tried to see the effects of manipulating it in the LCD, but had a very difficult time of it. You need a fairly large object of focus to be able to see what you are doing. Ultimately, I'm thinking this camera will be in auto focus or instant auto focus, most of the time. 4. Teleextender: I did briefly use a teleextender, using a step up ring I bought from BH. I bought two step up rings, because I have a 72mm achromat, but in this case, the teleextender I was using on the FX1 was only a 58mm. The teleextender on the HV20 provides nearly full zoom capability, and I think will actually provide a better result on the HV20, than the FX1. More to test there in the future. 5. Exposure controls: At first, the exposure controls with joy stick were confusing, as to be expected. But I finally got it down pretty well, and assuming I want to have my shutter as priority, I have learned to set it at the speed I want it, and adjust from there with the "exposure" adjustment with the "joy stick". While the read out does not explain what is happening, I assume that by adjusting exposure in priority shutter priority mode you are adjusting aperature, maybe neutral density filtering, and gain. I am unclear as to this, but maybe someone knows. I did also discover how to engage zebras. I think that is a must, because it looks like to me that the HV20 will blow out pretty quickly. For those who haven't seen it, the camera maxes out at F8, and a low side F 1.8 at wide angle. I think the highest shutter speed I saw in the book was 1/2000, though that is through auto mode only. I don't currently recall if that is available on the manual shutter priority mode. I seem to remember it only goes to 1/500 there, but don't hold me to it. 6. 35mm Adapter: I continue to try adapting this camera to the 35mm adapter I self built. One point of using such a camera is to reduce size, and make it truly hand held. But the issue of critical focus is coming into play, in my early work. My first attempts convinced me that I needed an achromat. However, with some testing I did this morning before I came to work, I found some hope that I may be wrong about that, and some adjustment to the adapter may resolve that. I do think that what ever happens, I may have to rely on the instant auto focus to actually find the focus on the ground glass. Use of the focus wheel/ with the lcd is just not going to go very well for me. 7. Viewfinder: "Stinks" is the word that comes to mind. It is not intended to help focus, only frame your shot at best. And the slide to adjust the focus to your eyes is right next to the eyepiece, and you cannot adjust, while you are looking through it. So you adjust it look in the viewfinder, adjust it again, until, by trial and error, you have hit something close. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 11:51 AM	#32
Troy Davis Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Raleigh,NC Posts: 263	HC7 vs HV2 Hi Chris, I currently own the sony vx2000 and vx2100. I'm currently looking for a good 3rd camera and was looking at the HC7 and HV2. I mostly shoot weddings and other events wanted a cam that would match up pretty close in post as well as support the HD format. Which of the two cams do you think would be the best choice based on your testing? Btw, the 3rd cam will mostly be used for balcony and center aisle shots. Thanks, Troy

April 5th, 2007, 01:07 PM	#33
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Hi Troy: Both the cameras will shoot DV, as I understand it, and even in a 4:3 format, like the VX/PD series. If you are shooting 16:9 with the PD/VX cams, I think you will see an improved picture in the either of these. The real issue, the way I see it, is the light in the facility. I think the HV20 will give a bit better low light performance, per reputation. I don't have the HC to compare to. I do know the HV20 does better in low light when set at 24p, and I confirmed that last night while working with my 35mm adapter. The real danger of shooting with buying an HDV camera is that you will want to shoot it just to see how it works, and soon, you lose satisfaction with your SD look.... be warned there.... And I believe either of the cameras you mention are capable of bringing about that dissatisfaction. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM	#35
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Example of Blowout I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 02:38 PM	#36
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I had to convert and resize all the grabs from .bmps, but are eight more to look at. The FX1 bird picture was actually done with a Cinema effect on, so comparison there is not full auto to full auto. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 01:59 PM	#34
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Hi Troy - Heed Chris's warning... you will buy one, and end up wanting more <wink>. HD is seductive. Jury is still out on low light, CNet review just panned the HV20 for bad low light, recommended the HC7... while CCI said the opposite... I'm testing the HC7 right now, and I'm impressed overall. I don't think the "field reviews" of the HV20 can be interpreted as anything much less than glowing, so I don't think you'll be "dissapointed" with either one, and you'll have a great small form factor camera when you don't want to lug the big guns. As far as post, I think you'll find it challenging - I did ONE wedding with a mix of SD and HD cameras - if you're a CC wizard, or the angles are different enough, it probably won't be a big problem, but be aware the single CMOS cams look quite a bit different (better IMO) than the old standby 3CCD cams... I'd toss a coin and get one, or if you have a couple extra coins, get both... I went with an HC7 initially as it was "upgrading" an HC3 and compatibility was an issue, but the HV20 looks like a great camera too. Tough choices! DB>)

April 5th, 2007, 02:41 PM	#37
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Hi Chris - Does the HV20 have an "AE" adjustment like the Sony cams? I know I tend to either set the auto exposure down 2-3 notches or adjust manually with the Sony cams. I figure Canon should also have a way to adjust? DB>)

April 5th, 2007, 02:50 PM	#39
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Not in full auto mode. But if you switch to non-full auto, you can select Program AE, which does allow modification up and down. But you don't know what is being altered, gain, shutter speed, or aperature. It does definitely affect exposure... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 03:09 PM	#40
Eric Sipe Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lakewood, CA Posts: 42	Are you able to compare the HV20 with an a1 directly? for "outdoor" nature shots? which would be better? or how well does the hv20 compare?

April 5th, 2007, 03:22 PM	#41
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Sorry, don't have A1, but my feeling is Canon A1 and Sony FX1 are very similar in chip configuration. I ve done a bit of outdoor with the FX1 at a nature preserve here locally, and I will take the HV20 out today or tomorrow, and be able to give you some idea there. I would certainly be shooting in a mode that I could control blow outs, most like "TV" which give priority to shutter speed. One thing I haven't run across is a ND filter change capability, and I assume that there is no access to that on board the camera. They do show screw ons in their accessories. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 5th, 2007, 05:27 PM	#44
Eric Sipe Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lakewood, CA Posts: 42	now are these digital stills from the camera or are these "Screen" caps of the "non compressed" film?