DV not scaling correctly in HDV project

[Dave Campbell]

Trying to make this issue simplier. When I make my HDV project, I pull in DV clips and use scaling to make it fit correctly. So, the DV in the timeline looks great. But, when I export this Time line, whether I do a new AVI movie, or media encoder or Pro coder, the DV in all of these output is all fuzzy. So, either I am messing up or their is a bug.
So, have anyone done a complete DVD project working with HDV and DV material and have the DV parts work correctly? If so, how did you do it?

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[David Newman]

Dave,

To help with you questions, what type of SD output are you trying to create. Is the DV 4x3 material to be pillar-box (columa on left and right) or fill the entire frame? As you trying to produce a 60i SD output (each field remains separate) or a progressive 24/30p output? Is you SD DV source progressive or interlace? Is you HDV source progressive or interlaced? All this will effect the outcoming and the path taken.

[Dave Campbell]

David, I am just trying to do a novice level effort. All I want to do is bring my HDV and DV into my christmas project, and edit, and then author into a standard DVD. Same thing I have done time and time again with DV with no errors.

I want to leave the DV as 4x3 in the 16x9 field so there would be black bars on the sides, not chopping off the top and bottom.

My SD DV source is from my VX2000 which I assume is interlaced normal video for 720X480 with a PAR of .9 (This is what the properties of the clip says)

My HDV source is from my Sony Z1 using it in default settings from the factory which I assume is 1080i. (The properties have said 1920x1080 with a PAR of 1.0)

So, you can see I am not trying to do anything fancy, (yet :O ), just default stuff.

Now, when I did use CFHD to scale the DV up, it did work, meaning, the output was not fuzzy when I did the export, or a new CFHD clip. But, the DV was chopped into the full 16x9 frame, with the bottoms and tops cut off, which is better than fuzzy but....

Now, when I looked at the CFHD file that was made in the 720x480 project, in the clip preview window, it looked perfect. Meaning, it was a 16x9 display, within it was the 4x3 DV clip with black sides. But, this clip on the time line had this shown as a full 16x9 wide clip with the tops and bottoms cut off.
Did the same thing in the 1920x1080 project.

Now, the cineform support has a faq saying how to make DV real time in a HDV project. So, I am going to try this process tonight and see if that works. I wil use CFHD from a 720x480 project to make a 1440x1080 clip, with a PAR of 1.33 just like the FAQ says. I will then make a 1440x1080 project and pull this file in. If it is not a 4x3 frame within a 16x9 project, then I would offer that this FAQ is wrong, but, need to do again before I say this is a fact.

Again, thanks to everyone for the help. Since I have gotten no response yet from anyone who has produced a DVD from a mixed DV/HDV project, I may be too much of an early adopter in this. :o(

Dave

[David Newman]

I just posted this on another thread, you need to turn of auto-scaling to the project size, that is your problem. Use the motion control panel to scale your DV clips to the size you need (without clipping the top and bottom of the image.) If you are rendering for up-resing to HD, don't use 1440x1080 1.33 PAR (that is for Aspect HD) use 1920x1080 1.0 PAR. You will get an HD up-res with black borders to fill your 4x3 image out to 16x9.

There is no formula for do custom mixes like this, as every user will want a different look, but you are getting close to a working solution.

[Dave Campbell]

David, where is the motion control panel? I did look for this based on another cineform faq, but I could only find reference in the help file to after effects which I do not have. ( I really do not want to focus on this process now since your CFHD real time DV in an HDV project is much more attractive. But, I want to play with it as an option.)

Now, I have NOT been using 1440, I have been doing my upconvert to 1920.

So, I have done what was suggest here and it did not work.

I made a standard DV project from Ppro (720x480, .9 PAR) and pulled in my DV clip. I do not believe I checked scale since it is not the default and not needed. I then used CFHD to export to a 1920x1080, PAR of 1.0. I then pulled this into my 1920x1080 and it does NOT display a 4x3 in a 16x9 frame.
It displays a 16x9 that chopped off the tops and bottom of the 4x3.

So David, if we just forget the auto-scaling since I am trying to use the process cineform documents for having DV clips able to be used in real time in a HDV project. (means no rendering). But so far, this process does not work, but I am assuming I am doing something wrong.

(The only reason I said I was going to try the 1440X1080 tonight is that is what your FAQ said to do, there is no FAQ for 1920x1080. So, I wanted to prove whether your aspect HD FAQ really worked correctly. If so, then this was a good data point. If not, then the problem is larger. Again, I tried the 1440x1080 PAR 1.0 CFHD last night and when I look at its properties, it said the PAR was 1.333 so that seems to be a bug? )

So, if one wants to use a DV clip in real time with Prospect, I assume one takes the FAQ for Aspect, and then just change it to 1920x1080 and a PAR of 1? This is what I did and did not seem to work.

So, as an engineer, I do this kind of debugging all day long at work. This is why I am trying to give as much data as possible to see if anyone else can relate.

Dave

[David Newman]

As an engineer, like me you probably haven't read the Premiere manual. The motion control panel is all you need to solve your cropping issues, and it is a Premiere function that Aspect/Prospect HD does support in real-time. It location in the effect control window, just like Opacity controls. This is where you do key-framing. Open the Premiere manual if it isn't completely obvious once you find the control.

[Dave Campbell]

David, after I asked where, I went back again and looked in the help manual. When I put in motion filter, all I got was after effects. So, I then printed out the Prospect HD manual again, and read again since I thought I had seen motion. So, Yet, I found it.

But, reading the FAQ from cineform, it say go into and do 150% for full height.
It then says 16:9 vs 4:3 is handled here. So, I have looked around in this motion effect and see nothing on how to handle this. I am looking at now in premiere and I see nothing. So, what did this mean from the FAQ? I do not have a HDV clip to try at work, so will have to wait until I get home.

Also, when I do the export, the FAQ does not say if I should use upper or lower field first.

So, when I CFHD from DV to HD project, is it upper or lower field.
And then when I use CFHD to go from the HD to DV (720x480), do I use upper or lower field?

Think am getting closer.

(I do read manuals more often than most engineers, which is why I sent you the mistakes in the prospect HD manual that I found. :o) )

Dave

[David Newman]

Maybe you read too much. Just try the motion panel and you will learn how it works, it is pretty easy, you choose the scale to produce the look you want.

[Dave Campbell]

:o)

Dave

[Dave Campbell]

Okay David, still do not seem to be able to get things right. I ran out of time to play, but here is what I have found so far. It takes SO LONG to make a change to the work flow, that I am still trying to use your FAQ so I can do it right the first time, but, things are not written clearly. So, I am going to quote your FAQ, such that when I figure this out, I hope you can update your FAQ on DV and HD mixing so others do not have to bug you about how to make this work correctly.

So, you said try the motion panel to see how it works. Again, no way that I am seeing to do this in real time. (I hope you can tell me a way I have missed since it takes SO long to try on little change.)

So, on the FAQ, it states "Go into the Motion filter and size the DV image the desired look (150% is full height). So, what does this mean? How do you see the desired look? I assume 150% at full height would give me my 4x3 DV in the 16x9 frame on cfhd export. So, since I could not see the "look" before the complete work flow, I did it. What did I end up with? I got my 4x3 sized in my 1920x1080 frame with the width the full 3 direction, but the tops and bottom cut off. Now, the last sentence of the FAQ says "16:9 vs 4:3 is handled here". Now, as I asked yesterday, I had no idea what this meant. But, based on what I have seen, this may be what is going on, but I will have to experiment again tonight. (Is there not someone who already has the answer so I do not continue to burn days and days with no results?)
So, it looks like the 150% motion gives me a full width DV in the 16x9 frame. Meaning, no black bars on the sides, but to do this, it had to cut off the top and bottom. So, this is one look folks may want. So, I will now try leaving the motion at 100% and just do the CFHD upconvert to 1920x1080. Now maybe what this will do is a 4x3 in the 16x9 so I have full top and bottom, but black bars on the sides. So, if my guess is true, then the FAQ would need to be fixed. My guess, without finishing the test tonight, is the 150% is full WIDTH, not height. And, the 100% is full HEIGHT, but not width?
(Part of the reason this change is taking so long is I did the 1920x1080 project to start with by have scale clips checked. Big mistake on this video mixing!!)

So David, before I go and try this again tonight, could I be correct with the above logic and the FAQ is wrong?

Also, is there a way I have missed to "see" the look in my original 720x480 project as the motion percentage is changed, and how it will look in a 16x9 frame without having to go though the entire work flow process?

Dave

[David Newman]

Again I think somehow the literal is obscuring the practical, or your Premiere is behaving very weird. All this will be in your Premiere manual. When you use the motion panel you should get immediate feedback. Select the DV clip on the timeline (by default it should be very small in preview monitor) , then adjust the scale in the motion panel, the size of cropping of the DV clip should be immediately obvious, adjust the size until it looks correct.

In this picture I have placed a color mattes to control the border color (something you could do) then you can see easily see the scale effect the cropping. http://www.cineform.com/downloads/MotionPanel.png If you are not seeing this you will need to contact Adobe support as your Premiere application is not working.

[Dave Campbell]

Okay David, lets try this thought with data. Maybe I am missing how the FAQ suggests to work.

So, I have followed the FAQ, and here is what I did again.
I make a standard DV 4x3 720x480 project from premiere. I pull in my DV clip and put it in the preview window. It fills it completely! I place this on the timeline and it again fills the 4x3 timeline window. I then use motion control to enlarge the image to 150%. Yes, I see the image in the TIMELINE window get much larger. (there are no reference points to a 16x9 frame). I then exported this into a 1920x1080 with CFHD.

Now, you said this "Select the DV clip on the timeline (by default it should be very small in preview monitor) " I do NOT see my image small in the preivew monitor. Now, I was thinking about maybe I am missing something from the FAQ. The FAQ says "put your DV footage into a DV project." Based on our past writing, I have been doing 720x480 which of course the DV clips fill.

Now, if you tell me I should have a 1920x1080 project, not a "DV project", then I can see that the DV clip would be small. I could then see that increasing the motion size would grow the DV clip to fill in the 16x9 space. I could then see exporting this clip via CFHD to change from a 720x480 to a 1920x1080.

So, is the issue my starting project at 720x480 is wrong? If so, I would offer that your FAQ needs to be updated.

I hope the above is right, since this would make sense.

Thanks again, we are getting close.

Dave

[Michael Stewart]

Dave, I believe you start your cineform project, import your DV file, drop it on the timeline, resize it (maintain the Aspect ratio of 4.3, this puts black bars on each side in your 16.9 project, (stretching it horizontaly to fit the full 16:9 would look wierd) I believe it is that straight forward, correct me if I am wrong David.


Mike

[Dave Campbell]

Mike, this is what I am starting to guess, its is just not what the Cineforms
"Can I mix HD and DV content in an HD project" says to do. (I do read the documents word for word. :o) )

If this is it, sure wish I would have understood this 2 weeks ago. :o(

Dave

[David Newman]

I don't no where you are getting you information from, the FAQ does not say any of this. Do you have an older link : The FAQ is here http://www.cineform.com/products/FAQ.htm