Prospect HD -- various questions

Bob Hart · May 27th, 2007, 07:53 AM

David.

No hurry in this enquiry. It might even be a case of me confusing myself.

When I downloaded the Prospect demo, I think that after I installed it, the HDLink showed or the Premiere project preferences showed a 2k option and there was a 4k to 2k conversion utlity.

However since legitimising the software, I have not been able to find this option again anywhere.

I might also have seen the option on a website somewhere and maybe my recall is wrong.

I took the AspectHD to ProspectHD upgrade month of May $400 meal deal. This apparently includes Neo as Neo does show in the list on the upper left of screen when HDLink is started.

Where I am at is that I have a test of 100 frames of DPX files on two DVD data disks which I have copied onto one of my drives. They are identified as 4K files on the printed disk label.

Neither Premiere Pro 2 or HDLink recognise the files.

In a reply to a previous enquiry there was a mention of a function to convert the 2K files to Cineform yet to come as an update.

So my question is -

Will Prospect HD with Neo eventually be able to convert these files to a Cineform intermediate by similar operator processes that HDLink provides for m2t files or will another upgrade have to be purchased?

My Super16mm/HDV origination project will be finished to DVD-Video so a DPX export is not needed.

Sorry I am not more clear. Computers are not my strong point.

Prospect seems to be doing its job as letterboxing does not seem to introduce occasional bands on transitions like AspectHD sometimes did.

David Newman · May 27th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Thank you. Yes 2K with 4:4:4 support is very nice. :)

David Newman · May 27th, 2007, 09:23 AM

DXP support is coming and it will be a free upgrade to all current users. In the meantime us After Effects for your DPX conversions.

Mark Leonard · June 25th, 2007, 03:12 PM

ok just installed the trial of prospect hd. I know nothing about it cept for reading on cineforms site about how it's better than aspect and that it will improve my quality even from my hdv hc3 and A1. so how do I import and edit so that it's 10bit? use the propect hdlink? I know it's not true 10bit b/c it's from an 8bit source. But the site was showing/saying how it's better than 8bit to 8bit :).

David Newman · June 25th, 2007, 03:46 PM

Use HDLink or directly capture in Premiere with the CineForm capture module -- either way is the same quality. The quality advantages of Prospect HD, do not so much occur upon capture, other then support for 1920x1080 and 10-bit sources if you had that. For 8-bit sources the advantage comes when doing color correction, as you now have headroom to support pushing the image around without introducing 8-bit aliasing artifacts like gradient banding or contouring.

Tip McPartland · July 15th, 2007, 11:40 AM

A while ago I updated from Aspect to Prospect, and I have a couple of comments:

1) Does it take quite a bit longer to convert Sony HDV to the 10-bit Prospect intermediates than it did with Aspect?

2) If so, is this because I'm choosing to upconvert the rez from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080 and/or from 8-bit to 10? These are great features, so no gripes, just curiosity.

3) Hats off to your coders, while the above is processing, all four "processors" (two dual core Opterons) are at 99-100%.

Also, let me re-submit my semi-annual request that ingest of 35 Mb/sec XDCAM HD be added to Prospect. The "prospect" of this (pun intended) is one of the reasons that I spent the extra money to upgrade.

Is there a timeline for full XDCAM HD support?

And finally, good luck with your Mac plug-in. Because of their 422 codec I fear you'll have a tough row to hoe. Please don't give too much of your mindshare to that project and lose focus on your thriving PC base. I noticed the .mov file type and realized how deeply this is going. But of course I wish you well with all you do.

Tip

David Taylor · July 16th, 2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tip McPartland

A while ago I updated from Aspect to Prospect, and I have a couple of comments:

1) Does it take quite a bit longer to convert Sony HDV to the 10-bit Prospect intermediates than it did with Aspect?

2) If so, is this because I'm choosing to upconvert the rez from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080 and/or from 8-bit to 10? These are great features, so no gripes, just curiosity.

8-bit versus 10-bit doesn't add appreciably to the conversion time nor does it add appreciably to file size. The extra time for conversion is because we apply an excellent Lanczos filter to the up-sampling process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tip McPartland

Is there a timeline for full XDCAM HD support?

It'll be in our next release - coming soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tip McPartland

And finally, good luck with your Mac plug-in. Because of their 422 codec I fear you'll have a tough row to hoe. Please don't give too much of your mindshare to that project and lose focus on your thriving PC base. I noticed the .mov file type and realized how deeply this is going. But of course I wish you well with all you do.Tip

There are differences between ProRes and CineForm Intermediate. Many of our customers need a cross-platform workflow. We solve that nicely. Also, the use of HD (and beyond) RGB seems to be increasing, and uncompressed RGB files are massive. CineForm 444 is a perfect solution to that. We're too small to go head-to-head with Apple (even though CineForm Intermediate will probably serve in the long-run to be very competitive to ProRes) but we'll focus on where we can add value. We'll also serve the Adobe Suite on Mac very well, although we haven't yet announced full compatibility yet with CS3 on mac.

James Huenergardt · August 15th, 2007, 11:50 AM

I have a question about using the Z1U in Cineframe mode along with Prospect HD and the Intensity Pro card from Black Magic.

If I capture from my Z1U in Cineframe 24 or 25 using the component out into a Black Magic Intensity card using Aspect or Prospect HD (still trying to save up to upgrade to Prospect) will the capture do the same frame interpolation stuff that it does from tape? IOW, will I end up with a 24 or 25P capture?

Thanks,

Jim

David Newman · August 15th, 2007, 12:03 PM

Yes, you will get 24p / 25p captures, with the caveat that Z1U's 24 mode has an non-standard shutter timing. Use CineFrame25.

Sergio Sanchez · August 17th, 2007, 04:49 PM

There seems to be a trouble with the cineon exporter filter and Prospect 2K.
I was trying to export some DPX sequences but somehow when loading them in Scratch they were not LOG, I rendered again and same problem. When I open the shot in Photoshop It was linear too.

I did another export from my Laptop, in wich I only have NEO player installed, Same sequence, Same export and render parameters. And that render looks right.

David Newman · August 17th, 2007, 05:08 PM

Where you running one in 16-bit and the offer in 32-float AE mode. The importer in NEO Player and Prospect 2K are identical, so the must other operation difference.

Sergio Sanchez · August 17th, 2007, 06:14 PM

Both was in 32 bits, Maybe I had a colorspace applied in one of the compositions, disabling colormanagement did the trick.

Sergio Sanchez · August 17th, 2007, 06:17 PM

I supose AE is confused when your are exporting to cineon and at the same time you have a colorspace applied to the project. And somehow it renders giving preference to the colorspace and not to the cineon exporter values.

Does it sound logical or is another thing?

David Newman · August 18th, 2007, 09:23 AM

Your theory is good. The ways of AE sometimes surprise us also.

Jason Rodriguez · August 18th, 2007, 10:58 PM

Hey Sergio, what that looks like to me, is I've seen "linear" from the camera, and your "linear" image doesn't look like a truly photometrically linear image from the camera. Instead what I think is happening is that you're exporting LOG, but the color management in AE is then taking your LOG image and converting it to some type of "print" gamma correction, since that's what the final image resembles . . . it's too bright, especially in the midtones, to be photometrically linear. A photometrically linear (which is a true "linear" image where doubling the pixel value is equal to double the real-world brightness) representation would look VERY dark, in that you would have hard time making out your subject's face, and only the windows would be visible, and most likely hard-clipped (i.e., no knee). I could be wrong, but this is my observation from seeing LOTS of relinearized images from the camera.

Since there seems to be a "knee" to the highlights in that image, and it's only the shadows that are a lot darker (the face is darker too, but the midtones in a photometrically linear image would be much darker than that), it looks to me that whatever was the project working space is re-gamma-correcting the output from LOG to something gamma corrected, like a darker print gamma correction or something of that nature.

May 27th, 2007, 07:53 AM	#136
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,476	Prospect HD and its HDLink David. No hurry in this enquiry. It might even be a case of me confusing myself. When I downloaded the Prospect demo, I think that after I installed it, the HDLink showed or the Premiere project preferences showed a 2k option and there was a 4k to 2k conversion utlity. However since legitimising the software, I have not been able to find this option again anywhere. I might also have seen the option on a website somewhere and maybe my recall is wrong. I took the AspectHD to ProspectHD upgrade month of May $400 meal deal. This apparently includes Neo as Neo does show in the list on the upper left of screen when HDLink is started. Where I am at is that I have a test of 100 frames of DPX files on two DVD data disks which I have copied onto one of my drives. They are identified as 4K files on the printed disk label. Neither Premiere Pro 2 or HDLink recognise the files. In a reply to a previous enquiry there was a mention of a function to convert the 2K files to Cineform yet to come as an update. So my question is - Will Prospect HD with Neo eventually be able to convert these files to a Cineform intermediate by similar operator processes that HDLink provides for m2t files or will another upgrade have to be purchased? My Super16mm/HDV origination project will be finished to DVD-Video so a DPX export is not needed. Sorry I am not more clear. Computers are not my strong point. Prospect seems to be doing its job as letterboxing does not seem to introduce occasional bands on transitions like AspectHD sometimes did.

May 27th, 2007, 09:15 AM	#137
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Thank you. Yes 2K with 4:4:4 support is very nice. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 27th, 2007, 09:23 AM	#138
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	DXP support is coming and it will be a free upgrade to all current users. In the meantime us After Effects for your DPX conversions. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 25th, 2007, 03:12 PM	#139
Mark Leonard Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 166	Ready to graduate to prospect, how to use? :) ok just installed the trial of prospect hd. I know nothing about it cept for reading on cineforms site about how it's better than aspect and that it will improve my quality even from my hdv hc3 and A1. so how do I import and edit so that it's 10bit? use the propect hdlink? I know it's not true 10bit b/c it's from an 8bit source. But the site was showing/saying how it's better than 8bit to 8bit :).

June 25th, 2007, 03:46 PM	#140
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Use HDLink or directly capture in Premiere with the CineForm capture module -- either way is the same quality. The quality advantages of Prospect HD, do not so much occur upon capture, other then support for 1920x1080 and 10-bit sources if you had that. For 8-bit sources the advantage comes when doing color correction, as you now have headroom to support pushing the image around without introducing 8-bit aliasing artifacts like gradient banding or contouring. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 15th, 2007, 11:40 AM	#141
Tip McPartland Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crestline, California Posts: 351	Prospect with HVR-V1 A while ago I updated from Aspect to Prospect, and I have a couple of comments: 1) Does it take quite a bit longer to convert Sony HDV to the 10-bit Prospect intermediates than it did with Aspect? 2) If so, is this because I'm choosing to upconvert the rez from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080 and/or from 8-bit to 10? These are great features, so no gripes, just curiosity. 3) Hats off to your coders, while the above is processing, all four "processors" (two dual core Opterons) are at 99-100%. Also, let me re-submit my semi-annual request that ingest of 35 Mb/sec XDCAM HD be added to Prospect. The "prospect" of this (pun intended) is one of the reasons that I spent the extra money to upgrade. Is there a timeline for full XDCAM HD support? And finally, good luck with your Mac plug-in. Because of their 422 codec I fear you'll have a tough row to hoe. Please don't give too much of your mindshare to that project and lose focus on your thriving PC base. I noticed the .mov file type and realized how deeply this is going. But of course I wish you well with all you do. Tip

August 15th, 2007, 11:50 AM	#143
James Huenergardt Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chehalis, WA Posts: 513	Prospect HD / Sony Z1U / Intensity Pro / Cineframe I have a question about using the Z1U in Cineframe mode along with Prospect HD and the Intensity Pro card from Black Magic. If I capture from my Z1U in Cineframe 24 or 25 using the component out into a Black Magic Intensity card using Aspect or Prospect HD (still trying to save up to upgrade to Prospect) will the capture do the same frame interpolation stuff that it does from tape? IOW, will I end up with a 24 or 25P capture? Thanks, Jim

August 15th, 2007, 12:03 PM	#144
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, you will get 24p / 25p captures, with the caveat that Z1U's 24 mode has an non-standard shutter timing. Use CineFrame25. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 17th, 2007, 04:49 PM	#145
Sergio Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mexico Posts: 176	DPX export problem with Prospect 2K There seems to be a trouble with the cineon exporter filter and Prospect 2K. I was trying to export some DPX sequences but somehow when loading them in Scratch they were not LOG, I rendered again and same problem. When I open the shot in Photoshop It was linear too. I did another export from my Laptop, in wich I only have NEO player installed, Same sequence, Same export and render parameters. And that render looks right. Attached Thumbnails

August 17th, 2007, 05:08 PM	#146
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Where you running one in 16-bit and the offer in 32-float AE mode. The importer in NEO Player and Prospect 2K are identical, so the must other operation difference. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 17th, 2007, 06:14 PM	#147
Sergio Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mexico Posts: 176	Both was in 32 bits, Maybe I had a colorspace applied in one of the compositions, disabling colormanagement did the trick.

August 17th, 2007, 06:17 PM	#148
Sergio Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mexico Posts: 176	I supose AE is confused when your are exporting to cineon and at the same time you have a colorspace applied to the project. And somehow it renders giving preference to the colorspace and not to the cineon exporter values. Does it sound logical or is another thing?

August 18th, 2007, 09:23 AM	#149
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Your theory is good. The ways of AE sometimes surprise us also. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 18th, 2007, 10:58 PM	#150
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Sergio, what that looks like to me, is I've seen "linear" from the camera, and your "linear" image doesn't look like a truly photometrically linear image from the camera. Instead what I think is happening is that you're exporting LOG, but the color management in AE is then taking your LOG image and converting it to some type of "print" gamma correction, since that's what the final image resembles . . . it's too bright, especially in the midtones, to be photometrically linear. A photometrically linear (which is a true "linear" image where doubling the pixel value is equal to double the real-world brightness) representation would look VERY dark, in that you would have hard time making out your subject's face, and only the windows would be visible, and most likely hard-clipped (i.e., no knee). I could be wrong, but this is my observation from seeing LOTS of relinearized images from the camera. Since there seems to be a "knee" to the highlights in that image, and it's only the shadows that are a lot darker (the face is darker too, but the midtones in a photometrically linear image would be much darker than that), it looks to me that whatever was the project working space is re-gamma-correcting the output from LOG to something gamma corrected, like a darker print gamma correction or something of that nature.