Nikon D90 has 720p24 over HDMI

[Nicholas de Kock]

Originally Posted by Ger Griffin

What i'm more interested in is what I mentioned before in relation to this technology, and thats the impact it will have on our professions.
A merging like this will surely have a big impact on wedding / event coverage. Im just not quite sure if the photographer will try to muscle out the video guy or vice versa. If it does start to happen, photographers need to thread carefully, the scarlett is just around the corner. They need to be careful they don't start a war they can't win.
In relation to the D90, im sure there's already a wedding photographer or two considering offering "video coverage of the vows".
Its interesting to think of other areas this could impact.

Griffen a great photographer can't do video and photos at the "same time", like wise for the video guy. You specialise in a field because they are so different to a degree. The two won't fight each other, this just offers better possibilities for both camps. This is what journalist have been waiting for and the Pro bodies will surly offer better solutions. It's not a replacement for video cameras it's an add-on for creativity.

[Ger Griffin]

Originally Posted by Nicholas de Kock

Griffen a great photographer can't do video and photos at the "same time", like wise for the video guy. You specialise in a field because they are so different to a degree. The two won't fight each other, this just offers better possibilities for both camps. This is what journalist have been waiting for and the Pro bodies will surly offer better solutions. It's not a replacement for video cameras it's an add-on for creativity.

It would be 'nice' if you were right Nicholas, but I fear you may not be, entirely.
Are the 2 fields really that different? They both follow all the same rules for composition & framing.
Up to now the main restricting factor has been the need for 2 seperate machines.
Jim sees what Im getting at by pointing out how he many times longed for the ability to shoot a little motion after spending a long time picking out & setting up a shot.

When it comes to most professionals in my area, they are in the business to make money. They wouldn't be the type of operators who would not shoot some HQ video with a camera that could, simply because it was not their field. If it was made worth their while to do so, they would. Granted, they may not be 'great' photographers but they are busy nonetheless.

Ger

[Jon Fairhurst]

I don't own the camera, but this is what I've gathered from my research...

* The D90 uses the full sensor size for 720p24, so you can get shallow DOF and goo low light response.

* Many have posted that the HDMI output has the graphics overlay, so it's not useful. I could be wrong.

* I haven't read a word about variable frame rates, aside from 4fps and slower time lapse in camera mode.

* I believe that it has the full dynamic range of the sensor, but that is probably lost during M-JPEG encoding.

From what I've seen the weaknesses are:

* Relatively slow rolling shutter

* Less than perfect decimation from the full resolution to 720, introducing some aliasing (jaggies).

* So-so compression.

* 5 minute limit.

Personally, I think the camera absolutely rocks for non-action, narrative (under 5 min shots), tripod stuff that will go to DVD or the web. The full sized sensor and lens options make this a unique, powerful tool.

[Anmol Mishra]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I don't own the camera, but this is what I've gathered from my research...

* The D90 uses the full sensor size for 720p24, so you can get shallow DOF and goo low light response.

* Many have posted that the HDMI output has the graphics overlay, so it's not useful. I could be wrong.

However, the overlays are on the top and bottom and if the output is cropped at 2.35:1 then the overlays are removed. Also, removing the overlays is a matter of a simple firmware fix from Nikon.

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

* I haven't read a word about variable frame rates, aside from 4fps and slower time lapse in camera mode.

The mechanical shutter can give a slower frame but you will destroy it. Its 24P in video - thats all

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

* I believe that it has the full dynamic range of the sensor, but that is probably lost during M-JPEG encoding.

Yes, but the RAW is 12-bit i.e. 4096 and JPEG is 8-bit i.e. 256. You can set a custom profile to map the 4096 to 256. So, if you take time before to decide the "look" of your film, you can get a very nice picture in-camera without requiring to degrade the footage in your NLE..

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

From what I've seen the weaknesses are:

* Relatively slow rolling shutter

* Less than perfect decimation from the full resolution to 720, introducing some aliasing (jaggies).

So far, the only output seen in the MJPEG that is 13.5 mbps for 720P i.e. 4x more compression than DV. The jury is still out on whether the jaggies are due to JPEG or due to the debayering or the decimation..

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

* So-so compression.

* 5 minute limit.

Again, a firmware fix from Nikon. Also, can be fixed if the HDMI output is recorded using Cineform or uncompressed..

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Personally, I think the camera absolutely rocks for non-action, narrative (under 5 min shots), tripod stuff that will go to DVD or the web. The full sized sensor and lens options make this a unique, powerful tool.

[Anmol Mishra]

This camera has a lot of potential. I just wish someone would post an HDMI uncompressed framegrab. If the HDMI output is indeed 4:2:2 BEFORE the JPEG compression, this would be a wonderful thing. And, if the 1080i is also uncompressed, and it turns out that the 1080i is NOT uprezzed..

So many questions, but a HDMI grab is needed..

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

...removing the overlays is a matter of a simple firmware fix from Nikon.

...Again, a firmware fix from Nikon.

While a firmware fix is possible, there's no guarantee.

Is it confirmed that you can get 2:35:1 on the HDMI output by cropping the overlay?

[Anmol Mishra]

From the pics on the dpreview site, you can crop it in post to remove the logos..

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

While a firmware fix is possible, there's no guarantee.

Is it confirmed that you can get 2:35:1 on the HDMI output by cropping the overlay?

[Ken Hodson]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Is it confirmed that you can get 2:35:1 on the HDMI output by cropping the overlay?

No it is not confirmed because we have no HDMi-out footage. But logically anyone who looks at a D90 frame with its icons can see you can crop it. The downfall is it is an origional 1280x720 frame, that is cropped down. It becomes something like a 1280x600'ish frame. That is very close to 2:35 in ratio, but it isn't a real fix any more then cropping HDV footage and calling it CinemaScope would be! Ultimately it is still throwing away resolution!
Nikon please get your head out and fix this situation asap. It may cost you sales in the long run if you don't. That is unless you are having a second edition, "hot on the heels"-"prosumer" model ariving soon. At twice the price eh!

[Ryan Farnes]

I just read this entire thread from start to finish. Whew.

The footage people have posted looks interesting. Knowing that the iris can be locked is huge. However, all the footage I've seen leads me to fear that a huge aspect of video cannot be controlled on this camera. Shutter speed.

24p is really cool, but if you're shutter isn't open for 1/24 second for every frame, you simply cannot achieve a film look. It looks like my digital camera's video just with higher resolution. Yucky video that has that sharp frame to frame jumping where motion is lost. Sometimes you want that, but usually not for me. In saying that, I recognize I think that this is more of a DSLR long before it is a video camera and not vice-versa, so it may be that you get what you get. They didn't design it for video enthusiasts but instead for photo enthusiasts that want to shoot some video too... (duh)

The depth of field is amazing on the samples at D90 | D-MOVIE, however they're all down-scaled and there isn't a lot of motion in some of the more beautiful shots. So it is hard to tell where shutter is at. The slower shots without fast motion look gorgeous. I want those types of original files. Sounds like people will be posting those types of things in the coming weeks.

Also, the mention of "jaggies" - if its what I think people are talking about? The horizontal lines where the image obviously breaks, almost as if a line or two of pixels were removed. Is that seriously a part of video this camera captures. That is a deal killer in my mind. That footage becomes useless if it creates horizontal lines of whatever in the image.

Anyways, yeah, shutter speed. Can we control the shutter speed to be 1/24 for fully fluid motion in the 720p24 mode?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

Nikon... fix this situation asap. It may cost you sales in the long run if you don't.

Don't worry -- Nikon isn't going to lose any sales. There is no direct competition for the D90. Nikon is going to sell *every single one* that they make. And... there's no such thing as a "long run" in the market for this particular level of D-SLR.

[Joe Winchester]

Ryan, I think you meant to say 1/48th sec shutter speed. Film is often exposed at this shutter speed (180 degree shutter angle, actually) for 24 fps, not 1/24th. (1/24th would blur too much).

360degress x 24fps = 8640 / 180degree shutter angle = 48 or 1/48th sec.

This D90 is truly exciting nonetheless and could be an interesting tool! I look forward to seeing some more real-world tests.

[Ken Hodson]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Don't worry -- Nikon isn't going to lose any sales. There is no direct competition for the D90. Nikon is going to sell *every single one* that they make. And... there's no such thing as a "long run" in the market for this particular level of D-SLR.

Well I'm glad they are going to sell every cam they make. To me it sounds like there are quite a few people such as myself, who are on the fence, because of fixable issues such as HDMi overlay.

[Steve Brady]

Originally Posted by Ryan Farnes

Can we control the shutter speed to be 1/24 for fully fluid motion in the 720p24 mode?

I don't think the shutter will be a problem. If you want a more conventional motion signature, you'll just need to use ND filtration or a pola-fader. It's not the ideal solution for most users, because if you want to shoot video and stills, you have to choose which one gets the ideal exposure conditions.

I think that you have to bear in mind that, at this point, Nikon's video capture is a response to customer demand to be able to record the live-view picture, rather than designed from the ground up as a video acquisition system. Personally, I'm hopeful that Nikon will continue to refine the hybrid camera idea, simply because I have a lot of money invested in Nikon lenses.

[Ryan Farnes]

Yeah, I admittedly don't understand all the technical aspects of video acquisition, but in the filming I've done on the HVX200 I've always leaned towards keeping the shutter open for the longest possible time. It reads 1/24 on my settings on the HVX, and upon reviewing the footage frame to frame, anything moving always touches frame to frame, there are no gaps. It simply looks more realistic to me and less like video with lots of motion where the motion blur is only half captured.

A faster shutter speed is desirable at times as well to not overdue the blur, but I'd simply love to have that option. Again though, I have to bang my head against the wall and tell myself this is a DSLR and not a video camera.

Its just that I see the quality you get from shooting through lenses without having to use a converter box and I want that look. Seems like most of the pieces are in place for an incredible tool, just not shutter speed control.

Anyone know if you can control the shutter speed on the video mode on the D90?

[Ryan Farnes]

My friend at work, who told me about the D90, actually bought one over the weekend and so I'll have a chance to try some things out on his.

He thinks that the shutter speed is dictated by the light amount. So he hopes to expose a certain amount of light to achieve a particular shutter speed and then to lock the exposure and begin filming to maintain that speed.

He bought it primarily as a video camera. Funny. I wonder what percentage of the D90's sales will be from video enthusiasts. I think that they see a $1300 camera that shoots 720p24 with the ability to interchange lenses and there just isn't anything that competes in that price range...

Not quite there, but encourages me about fun things to come.