HVX200 & Mac Combo - Who's Taking that Route?

Robert Lane · January 14th, 2006, 01:18 PM

Call me silly, but I almost feel like worrying about recording time or, even having the ability to have long single clips by using different media is making all of us a bit spoiled.

On the few film projects is was a contracted DP, our standard film load was 11 minutes! Dumping to drives, switching cards, reformatting etc... it all seems like cake compared to dealing with loading and changing out film cans!

I'll take the ultra-small form factor and light weight of the HVX system vs. lugging around short-run film canisters any day! (laughs)

January 14th, 2006, 01:35 PM

Robert,

I agree. Oh the "problems" we have!

Not to mention all of the new-found time I'll have with taking "capturing footage" out of the workflow process. Not only the new-found time, but the money as well, as this eliminates the need of having a deck and/or the wear & tear on your camera if you use it as your deck (although I think the "wear & tear" on a camera from using it as a deck are quite minimal).

Steev Dinkins · January 14th, 2006, 01:47 PM

I'll admit being spoiled by new tech for sure. I also admit that I take as much for granted as possible, in hopes of shattering some creative ground, just for me personally (clients may come to appreciate it as well). So I'm trying to cover bases that will help facilitate the artistic process as much as possible.

I aim to be involved in very well planned shoots, cinema film style, but I'm also aiming to get into hardcore verite concepts, and I may definitely need a lot of roll time, without breaks. Events and strange cool things happen with or without us. When I'm rollin', I want to increase my chances of capturing it.

:)

Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the *Mac*. We are way off topic. :P

Barry Green · January 14th, 2006, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek West

Then again, you have to remember that Barry's been using the HVX for probably the longest time of anyone here and he makes a good case for the 4GB cards as well. Decisions, decisions. (good ones though) :)

Let's be clear -- the 8gb cards are better than the 4gb cards in all ways, shapes, and forms. I'm only looking at the cost-per-gigabyte ratio. If someone can justify the cost of the 8gb cards, of course they would provide for longer recording and fewer swaps. I was just saying that in general, the 4gb's are so much less expensive per gb that you could have two 4gb's, add a P2 Store and a field-offloading laptop, thus giving you about 100 gb of storage on hand for less than the cost of two 8gb cards.

But yes, absolutely if one had 8gb's and 4gb's, I would guess the 4's wouldn't get much use!

January 14th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Thanks Barry. You're right 100%. It's the costs vs. benefit/convenience thats making it a tough decision for me. One other factor that is out of my control is going to be the availability of the 8GB cards. I may "have" to go with 1 or 2 4GB cards in order to get the HVX sooner.

Robert Lane · January 14th, 2006, 10:54 PM

Derek,

The 8GB cards are out there; check around with smaller, local shops. I don't know why yet, but it seems places like B&H aren't getting shipments of the HVX related hardware as fast as the smaller shops. Go figure.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 15th, 2006, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the *Mac*. We are way off topic. :P

Yep...

And to bring it back on topic, I'll announce that I just took the plunge!

I snagged a pretty darn good deal on a G5 quad on ebay. It's NIB and seems to come from a reputable seller. I just threw a bid out there and didn't imagine that I'd actually win, but nobody else stopped by to bid on it as the auction closed. Hopefully it pans out. G5 quad 2.5GHz, 4GB (I may upgrade to 8GB), 500GB HDD (I'll be adding a second), 7800GT, Airport Extreme w/Bluetooth.

I'll be connecting it to a new Dell 30" display. If it goes well and I decide to continue down the Mac path, I'll drop in a Kona2 (maybe a Kona3 if price allows) and I'll pick up a decent HD studio monitor. Once the system is here, I'll set it up with Final Cut Studio. The monitor just arrived today, but I haven't fired it up yet. If it all works out, I'll also add Shake, probably before I spring for the Kona card.

Steev Dinkins · January 15th, 2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

I snagged a pretty darn good deal on a G5 quad on ebay.

Congrats!! You're in for a nice ride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

I'll be connecting it to a new Dell 30" display.

The only flag this raises to me was a report on Barefeats about issues with the Dell 24" with Final Cut Pro while running at 60hz refresh rate. Here's the BareFeats report:

January 9th, 2006 (Updated) -- FCP PLAYBACK PROBLEM REPORTED
Readers have reported to me a problem with skipped frames during playback with Final Cut Pro using the Dell LCD 2405FPW display at 60Hz. Apple warns about problems with 60Hz refresh rate in an article on their web site, but that applies to CRTs. Most readers report NO problems with the Dell 2405FPW. We can't duplicate the problem in our lab. Apple recommends refresh rates of 75Hz or higher. The Quad-Core with the FX 4500 connected to the Dell 2405FPW can be set to 75Hz at 1024x768 or 1280x1024 resolution. The native 1920x1200 only can run at 60Hz on the Dell. It's unknown what scan rate the Cinema displays use. If you open the Displays preference panel, refresh rate is "n/a."

Hopefully, the resolution you want to use on the Dell allows a faster-than-60hz refresh rate. Or maybe it won't matter.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Thanks for the comments on the LCD refresh, Steev. :) I was never aware of a frame-skipping problem. Although frame judder is commonplace. For judder, it's not a Dell issue, it's a general LCD panel issue and present on all Apple displays as well as nearly every display out there. What it comes down to is these panels right now all sync at 60Hz, regardless of which resolution they're running. Some of the panels will take faster refresh rates as inputs, but still can only scan at 60Hz. Where the problem comes in with playback is when you have a 60Hz progressive display and you try to run frame rates like 24fps, you have the choice of seeing either judder (if the video frame draws are sync'd with the display blanking) or you see shearing/tearing (if the frame draws are not in sync). On CRTs or other displays that have higher refresh rates, this becomes less of an issue. Apple won't admit that this happens with their own displays, but *ALL* of the current Apple displays have a max refresh rate of 60Hz. A few models (like the 23" one) can accept higher-rate inputs for lower resolutions and even though the screen still outputs at 60Hz, this can still produces a smoother image at times. At 1920x1200, though (top resolution for the 23"), input is still limited to 60Hz as it is with the Dell 2405, or the Samsung 24x models, etc.. The DVI spec tops out with the max resolution at 60Hz being 1920x1200. Dual-Link DVI can transmit 1920x1200 @ 120Hz or 2560x1600 @ 60Hz.

60Hz refresh on LCD is just a way of life and millions of people the world over own these displays and don't seem to mind. Goes for HDTV sets too in the form of LCD, rear projection LCD/LCOS and Plasma. Some oddball pro sets and high-end consumer sets have 120Hz refresh, but they're few and far between - like the 65" Studio JVC LCOS set for $40K or the consumer grade Brillian 65" LCOS for about $9K.

Also these refresh issues plague CRT displays too, but nobody seemed to really ever notice. I think it's just something for LCD naysayers to gripe about. But I don't think the issue will go away until 120Hz displays are common... 120Hz gives perfect sync for 30fps, 60fps and 24fps with no frame judder.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

I'm eager to see the new Dell 30" in action. It looks seriously cool on my desk and dwarfs my 24" Samsung. It has 75nits more brightness and a 700:1 contrast vs. the 500:1 of the Apple 30". Price-wise, they are the same.

I don't know if I'll wait for my new Quad or if I'll hook up my 7800GTX equipped gaming system. The 7800GTX has a dual-link DVI port on it. :)

Jeff Kilgroe · January 15th, 2006, 11:56 AM

Here's one more issue I have been thinking of, now that I'm about to get this Mac thing going...

I know that Shake uses a USB dongle for copy protection. What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use (can only install/register the product every 120 days or so)???

The reason I ask, is if the new Quad works out well and I end up liking FCS, I will probably buy a MacBookPro for field use. I can get the Universal FCS disc sometime in February so running the apps on the new Intel is a non-issue. But I just wanted to know what I'm up against if I will need a separate license for each system (yuck). Or if I can just put the USB dongle on a keychain like I do with my keys for Windows software and they go with me so I have them with whatever system I'm on.... How does the Apple license agreement work? With Microsoft and Adobe, they allow in the fine print a second installation for a mobile system even though the installations are time locked. Just install, call them up and tell them you're also installing on your notebook for when you're away from the office and they say "uh, OK" and give you the unlock code. Some other software vendors are a little more friendly and allow 2~3 installs before initiating the timelock (Autodesk, Vegas). ...Just curious what Apple does. I'm already liking how Apple offers the family upgrade packs too for OSX and some of their other software. $30 more than the standard upgrade for OSX and I can upgrade up to 5 systems. Wish Microsoft did that with Windows...

David Saraceno · January 15th, 2006, 12:53 PM

The proapps are keyed or dongled.

License says you can install one app on one computer at a time.

As an attorney, I read that to mean you can't, under the license, have multiple installs even though you are using only one at a time.

Your mileage may vary

Steev Dinkins · January 15th, 2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use

FCS uses a serial number. FCS looks for repeat serial usages on an ethernet network. You won't be able to run it on more than 1 computer if the other computer(s) are on the same network. You can deduce the rest of your use from that statement. I'd just say, play fair. :)

January 15th, 2006, 03:09 PM

Kaku,

Nice new HVX footage on your site! I love the details that you can see in the neon sign. Thanks for posting that and giving me something to edit and play around with while waiting for my cam.

Steve Connor · January 17th, 2006, 11:51 AM

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Jeff Kilgroe · January 17th, 2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Yep. Also you can bet a lot of people are going to be switching to DVD Studio Pro too to get BluRay support (and possibly HD-DVD). Adobe is ignoring the existence of new HD disc formats for Encore 2.0 and Vegas+DVD has no announced plans either, although I bet they will support BluRay (being Sony and all that) sometime later this spring/summer.

January 14th, 2006, 01:18 PM	#106
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Call me silly, but I almost feel like worrying about recording time or, even having the ability to have long single clips by using different media is making all of us a bit spoiled. On the few film projects is was a contracted DP, our standard film load was 11 minutes! Dumping to drives, switching cards, reformatting etc... it all seems like cake compared to dealing with loading and changing out film cans! I'll take the ultra-small form factor and light weight of the HVX system vs. lugging around short-run film canisters any day! (laughs) __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

January 14th, 2006, 01:35 PM	#107
Guest Posts: n/a	Robert, I agree. Oh the "problems" we have! Not to mention all of the new-found time I'll have with taking "capturing footage" out of the workflow process. Not only the new-found time, but the money as well, as this eliminates the need of having a deck and/or the wear & tear on your camera if you use it as your deck (although I think the "wear & tear" on a camera from using it as a deck are quite minimal). Last edited by Guest; January 14th, 2006 at 09:55 PM.

January 14th, 2006, 01:47 PM	#108
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	I'll admit being spoiled by new tech for sure. I also admit that I take as much for granted as possible, in hopes of shattering some creative ground, just for me personally (clients may come to appreciate it as well). So I'm trying to cover bases that will help facilitate the artistic process as much as possible. I aim to be involved in very well planned shoots, cinema film style, but I'm also aiming to get into hardcore verite concepts, and I may definitely need a lot of roll time, without breaks. Events and strange cool things happen with or without us. When I'm rollin', I want to increase my chances of capturing it. :) Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the Mac. We are way off topic. :P __________________ www.holyzoo.com

January 14th, 2006, 10:54 PM	#111
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Derek, The 8GB cards are out there; check around with smaller, local shops. I don't know why yet, but it seems places like B&H aren't getting shipments of the HVX related hardware as fast as the smaller shops. Go figure. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

January 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#114
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	Thanks for the comments on the LCD refresh, Steev. :) I was never aware of a frame-skipping problem. Although frame judder is commonplace. For judder, it's not a Dell issue, it's a general LCD panel issue and present on all Apple displays as well as nearly every display out there. What it comes down to is these panels right now all sync at 60Hz, regardless of which resolution they're running. Some of the panels will take faster refresh rates as inputs, but still can only scan at 60Hz. Where the problem comes in with playback is when you have a 60Hz progressive display and you try to run frame rates like 24fps, you have the choice of seeing either judder (if the video frame draws are sync'd with the display blanking) or you see shearing/tearing (if the frame draws are not in sync). On CRTs or other displays that have higher refresh rates, this becomes less of an issue. Apple won't admit that this happens with their own displays, but ALL of the current Apple displays have a max refresh rate of 60Hz. A few models (like the 23" one) can accept higher-rate inputs for lower resolutions and even though the screen still outputs at 60Hz, this can still produces a smoother image at times. At 1920x1200, though (top resolution for the 23"), input is still limited to 60Hz as it is with the Dell 2405, or the Samsung 24x models, etc.. The DVI spec tops out with the max resolution at 60Hz being 1920x1200. Dual-Link DVI can transmit 1920x1200 @ 120Hz or 2560x1600 @ 60Hz. 60Hz refresh on LCD is just a way of life and millions of people the world over own these displays and don't seem to mind. Goes for HDTV sets too in the form of LCD, rear projection LCD/LCOS and Plasma. Some oddball pro sets and high-end consumer sets have 120Hz refresh, but they're few and far between - like the 65" Studio JVC LCOS set for $40K or the consumer grade Brillian 65" LCOS for about $9K. Also these refresh issues plague CRT displays too, but nobody seemed to really ever notice. I think it's just something for LCD naysayers to gripe about. But I don't think the issue will go away until 120Hz displays are common... 120Hz gives perfect sync for 30fps, 60fps and 24fps with no frame judder. Sorry for the long-winded post, but just thought I'd throw that out there. :) I'm eager to see the new Dell 30" in action. It looks seriously cool on my desk and dwarfs my 24" Samsung. It has 75nits more brightness and a 700:1 contrast vs. the 500:1 of the Apple 30". Price-wise, they are the same. I don't know if I'll wait for my new Quad or if I'll hook up my 7800GTX equipped gaming system. The 7800GTX has a dual-link DVI port on it. :) __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

January 14th, 2006, 05:20 PM	#110
Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks Barry. You're right 100%. It's the costs vs. benefit/convenience thats making it a tough decision for me. One other factor that is out of my control is going to be the availability of the 8GB cards. I may "have" to go with 1 or 2 4GB cards in order to get the HVX sooner.

January 15th, 2006, 11:56 AM	#115
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	Q's about copy protection on Apple software? Here's one more issue I have been thinking of, now that I'm about to get this Mac thing going... I know that Shake uses a USB dongle for copy protection. What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use (can only install/register the product every 120 days or so)??? The reason I ask, is if the new Quad works out well and I end up liking FCS, I will probably buy a MacBookPro for field use. I can get the Universal FCS disc sometime in February so running the apps on the new Intel is a non-issue. But I just wanted to know what I'm up against if I will need a separate license for each system (yuck). Or if I can just put the USB dongle on a keychain like I do with my keys for Windows software and they go with me so I have them with whatever system I'm on.... How does the Apple license agreement work? With Microsoft and Adobe, they allow in the fine print a second installation for a mobile system even though the installations are time locked. Just install, call them up and tell them you're also installing on your notebook for when you're away from the office and they say "uh, OK" and give you the unlock code. Some other software vendors are a little more friendly and allow 2~3 installs before initiating the timelock (Autodesk, Vegas). ...Just curious what Apple does. I'm already liking how Apple offers the family upgrade packs too for OSX and some of their other software. $30 more than the standard upgrade for OSX and I can upgrade up to 5 systems. Wish Microsoft did that with Windows... __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

January 15th, 2006, 12:53 PM	#116
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	The proapps are keyed or dongled. License says you can install one app on one computer at a time. As an attorney, I read that to mean you can't, under the license, have multiple installs even though you are using only one at a time. Your mileage may vary

January 15th, 2006, 03:09 PM	#118
Guest Posts: n/a	Kaku's New Night Time Footage Kaku, Nice new HVX footage on your site! I love the details that you can see in the neon sign. Thanks for posting that and giving me something to edit and play around with while waiting for my cam.

January 17th, 2006, 11:51 AM	#119
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!