October 12th, 2010, 05:11 PM | #526 |
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Um, my guess is "none." Pros understand the difference and know how to work with it, and consumers don't care -- they just know it works.
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October 12th, 2010, 07:10 PM | #527 |
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That's a harsh call to say the LL review is babbling nonsense.
Plus, to add to the confusion, what on earth is this about?: "There is no 720p24 .... in the BD/AVCHD world" BD spec: 1920×1080 59.94-i 16:9 2D encodes only 1920×1080 50-i 16:9 2D encodes only 1920×1080 24-p 16:9 1920×1080 23.976-p 16:9 1440×1080 59.94-i 16:9 (anamorphic) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only 1440×1080 50-i 16:9 (anamorphic) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only 1440×1080 24-p 16:9 (anamorphic) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only 1440×1080 23.976-p 16:9 (anamorphic) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only 1280×720 59.94-p 16:9 1280×720 50-p 16:9 1280×720 24-p 16:9 1280×720 23.976-p 16:9 720×480 59.94-i 4:3/16:9 (anamorphic) 720×576 50-i 4:3/16:9 (anamorphic) |
October 12th, 2010, 08:37 PM | #528 |
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".. what on earth is this about?: "There is no 720p24 .... in the BD/AVCHD world" "
My god, you caught me!
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October 14th, 2010, 06:24 AM | #529 | |
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October 14th, 2010, 06:45 AM | #530 |
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I agree with you Bill. I had a hands on with the Sony yesterday at the ProVideo 2010 event here in the UK. It is definitely a "rich kids toy", no way a pro camera (but I'm sure there are/will be some lovely films made with it).
Now the Panasonic sure looks much more of a professional tool in every way (...although the codec still worries me a bit).
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October 16th, 2010, 01:43 AM | #531 |
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Actually the shallow the DOF the fewer the background details that need to be compressed and so more efficient the compression so the less load on the codec.
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October 17th, 2010, 07:37 AM | #532 | |
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What that means is that the pictures look like p25 in terms of motion rendition, it behaves like i/25 in terms of equipment compatability. Steve, I agree with pretty well all you say, but if I bought a camera marked i/25 (50i) I'd expect 50Hz motion rendition. In this case, I'd get 25Hz. David quoted the following sentence earlier: "......some of these cameras (such as the VG10) really aren't recording 60i, they're capturing 30P and placing it in a 60i "wrapper" ". "Psf" is the simple way of saying "capturing 30P and placing it in a 60i "wrapper" ". |
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October 17th, 2010, 02:29 PM | #533 | |
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I can use a native 60i sequence, mix VG10 and CX550 (60i) and if going out to BR, I'm not concerned. But what happens to a VG10 60i sequence when it gets "deinterlaced" for web? One work around for me, if I use Cineform DI, the CF converter can be instructed to "interpret" the raw footage as 30p. It will simply reassemble the fields into the original 30p frames without applying any deinterlacing algorhythm. There may also be a way to have CS5 "interpret" the raw footage to 30p without deinterlace. I haven't tried that yet. Anyway, as 30p, I feel more confident that no matter if going to web, BR, or DVD, there'll be no unanticipated tampering with the images. But, I feel like there are still many unanswered questions at this point.
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October 17th, 2010, 02:37 PM | #534 |
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All you have to do is tell your NLE that the footage is progressive. Easy. No de-interlacing required. Have people forgotten that any SD camera that records 25p or 30p is also recording to PsF? It was never a problem then, and it isn't a problem now.
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October 17th, 2010, 03:02 PM | #535 | |
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I hadn't forgotten, I just never knew that to begin with. That is what I suspected re CS5- just open a 30p sequence and drop the psf onto it. However, if you allow CS5 to open a default sequence based on the footage, it will be 60i. Seems like that would be the smartest way to handle VG10 footage, rather than an interlaced sequence.
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October 17th, 2010, 03:09 PM | #536 | |
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There's slightly more to it then dropping the footage onto a 30p or 25p timeline. If you do that the NLE might assume that the footage is interlaced and perform a deinterlacing algorithm on it. I say *might* because depending on the system it may or may not understand that the footage is already progressive.
For example I always had to tell both Vegas and FCP that my XDCAM SD footage was progressive. So you will need to set up a 25p or 30p timeline, but make sure that the individual clip properties are set to progressive or no field order. As David said; Quote:
The key is the encoding at the end of the chain (to BluRay or DVD), to make sure that the compressor knows what it is receiving, and setting the output accordingly. |
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October 17th, 2010, 05:51 PM | #537 | |
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It's quite true that an SD camera is unlikely to record progressive directly, and extremely likely to record it as psf. If the editing software then reconstructs the original progressive, fine, but if you were to simply display it on an interlace display with no further processing, you'd get horrible 25Hz "twittering" on horizontal or near horizontal lines. For that reason, if the psf pictures are likely to be viewed directly via an interlace system, it's very desirable to line average the original progressive image. That obviously softens the vertical resolution, but it's a small price to pay for getting rid of the line flicker. If psf is simply being used as a carrier, the destination being an NLE which will reconstruct true progressive, you obviously don't want line averaging. |
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October 17th, 2010, 09:11 PM | #538 | |
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However, I can highlight multiple clips in the project window, activate the pull down menu, select Modify>Interpret Footage>Conform to Progressive (no fields). On preview, it looks exactly the same as the unmodified psf. So, I'm not sure exactly what PPro is doing- Is it really conforming to 30p automatically when the psf goes on a 30p sequence, or is it just providing great previewing capabilities? The clip properties window for individual clips gives framerate as 29.97 for both i and p footage, and makes no reference to field order. No help there.
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October 17th, 2010, 11:04 PM | #539 | |
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FCE and iMovie do not offer that function. The clips will be deinterlaced -- although I sell software the re-tags interlaced AIC to progressive. Premiere Elements can only make a progressive Project if you choose H.264 DSLR setting. (But, AVCHD may not playback -- needs to be confirmed.) If you make an AVCHD Project you can only have an interlace sequence but it appears dropping clip into a sequence MAY change the sequence to progressive (Premiere may look within the data stream) -- BUT during export the sequence is assumed to be interlaced and deinterlaced if you make 720p30. EDIUS and Vegas Movie Studio I need to re-check. Sony, by marketing as 50i/60i saves the consumer from all this complexity. They can just use it. Of course quality is VERY likely to be lost. Were Sony to market it as 1080i60/30fps or 1080i60/30p -- they would confuse every kid at Best Buy, most every consumer buyer, and a number of "pros." The fact I still need to re-check NLEs says its not obvious the exact workflow needed for each one. PS: Media Composer claim the clips are progressive when they are imported to DNxHD for use in a progressive project.
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October 18th, 2010, 02:04 AM | #540 | ||
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Lets say that you have 1920x1080 50i PsF footage and you edit it in your NLE on a 50i timeline. No deinterlacing or loss of line info takes place in that case. Now you want to output a 1920x1080 sequence for Vimeo or YouTube. Conventional wisdom says that you need to deinterlace interlaced footage because of the weird combing effects when shown on a progressive display. However in this case it doesn't matter because the footage really is still progressive. No combing will be seen even if you don't perform any deinterlacing. You'll see both fields at the same time as you should. As David said, there could be an issue on interlaced displays, but to be honest I never really had any issues, certainly no more so that with interlacing itself! Although camera setup did help. But if you are going out to DVD or BluRay then the encoder does need to know that it is receiving progressive scan footage (even if you output from the NLE timeline initially in a 50i file). Although having said that I have heard that a lot of players these days ignore the field flag and do their own interpretation of whether footage is progressive or not due to the unreliability of the manufacturers in the past. One of those things that is complicated yet simple at the same time! |
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