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#16 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Meaning we are still on the bleeding edge of 4K acquisition. Remember those who bought HDMI 1.4a monitors? Early adopters that are now facing early planned obsolescence.
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#17 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Covington, Louisiana
Posts: 179
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Well, I ordered two FS5 packages (with the lens) last Friday -- the day it was announced.
Perfect? Haven't seen that camera in 50 years of looking. ;) Good for what I do? Yep! Gonna come up short on some things? I imagine so, but I just don't care. The images look good, the cameras are easy to shoot, I can run audio into them, I can use them in the studio, I can shoot interviews in UHD framed wide so I can cut in for that closeup (second camera) look, etc., etc. Mostly they will be shot outside at events and at shoots we create. Currently shooting XF105s, XS305s, A7ii, and FS700. Sometimes "good enough" really is. Or, "The enemy of good is an attempt at perfect." ;) |
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#18 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
When "good enough" is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat.
My biggest pet peeve in both video gaming and video acquisition is those that think 30p is good enough cause they can't tell the difference, and those that say the eye can't see above 24fps. (YES IT CAN. Not as whole images but it can sense higher frame rates in the form of temporal data.) If I'm only gonna get 4K30p, I'd much rather get the MFT 4K camera coming soon from engineers from Ambarella, the people that manufacturer the GoPro in China: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...le-lens-camera IMO, 30p cannot be taken seriously anymore. YouTube will move to supporting 4K 60p so there is no reason soon to limit yourself to 30p. And like I said, for nature feature production with BBC and Discovery, your footage from the FS5 if it's not via the RAW upgrade will be instantly rejected since it doesn't comply with 4K 60p. |
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#19 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Covington, Louisiana
Posts: 179
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
" When 'good enough' is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat."
Hardly. Our TV series run on networks which have no plans to go 4K. We are cranking out two 30-minute episodes a week during the busy season, for two series, plus a digital series (14 episodes) where we'll run 6 to 9 cameras at a time. Lots of editing on that sucker. I could spend more on cameras, and that money would be completely wasted. These shows are not evergreen. They will run, and then they are done. No need to "future proof" them. Not cinema. Just TV. Providing employment for several people, entertaining a lot of folks, and making the shows as good as the time/budget/advertising will allow. Way back in my magazine photography and editing days, in my first job as assistant editor (1975), the managing editor explained it this way. "We never get the issue to the point we would really like. We do as much as we can, but then we have to send it to the printer." Same with TV. It has to go to the network on a certain day, even when you know that if you had another week it would be better. Many times, "good enough" is all you get. |
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#20 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Yes, 100% freelancing vs time constrained contract based work are 101% different.
A sole proprietorship cares more about quality and less often about time and budget since most of the time it's personal investment into the quality of the product that's being produced. When you know what works, you save up to go for it. For me, 60p is uncompromisable by now. I have clients nagging me to get a 1080p 60p camera and my EX1R can't do that. Then again, my final output is to the web (where there's now proper 1080p 60p distribution channels in the form of YouTube) I know the US Reality TV acquisition standard is 1080 30p, so for those time rushed environments, it's just familiar territory with fast turnaround time. |
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#21 | ||
Inner Circle
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
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I actually have sympathy with you - 24/25p puts constraints on production such as panning speed, and even then can lead to jerkiness. But realistically, 1080p/50 and 4K/24(25)p in a camera of this price level are going to satisfy the vast majority of potential users at the moment, aren't they? Does Tom even need the 4K abilities at all? Both exceed all current broadcast formats, the former in progressive frame rate, the latter in spatial resolution. Most current UK TV (even at the high end) is still being shot 1080i/25 or 1080p/25, even with far higher end cameras. |
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#22 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
David, there's both. Those that can't see the difference and those that swear by 24p.
The video gaming community has been arguing against artificial frame rate limits for years, and it's one of the most heated debates to this day, cause some console video game players say they can't sense framerate cause they're so used to 30p. The reason why I didn't go for a GH4 was I was waiting for the next-gen with 60p. Here's hoping that doesn't have a massive crop factor problem like the DVX200. |
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#23 |
Space Hipster
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,596
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Jack, the FS5 doesn't, and won't do 4K60P, and nothing's going to change that. This camera is not for you, obviously. Spend some more money and get the excellent FS7, for one example, if you require 4K60P.
Heck, even my little HC-X1000 does 4K60P, although it wouldn't pass muster for the big league networks. I think part of the lack of 4K60P at broadcast 200Mbps is Sony's decision to use cheaper SD cards. This is more of a budget camera, it would seem. If you need more, Sony offers other cameras that will do the job. The rest of us will decide on our own if we value 4K60P enough to pass on this camera, or if we're content with this limitation. This does not mean we're admitting defeat, it just means it's not a big deal in our workflow. Personally, I have yet to use 1080/60P in any of my productions, much less 4K60P, but that's hardly a failure. My broadcast clients are very happy with good ol' 1080/30P-60i. Yes, lack of 4K60P does limit the FS5 for some applications, but it seems it will do just fine in many others. My biggest concern is its lack of a Timecode in/out port. Even the DVX200 has one. I'll decide if that's enough of a reason to buy or not to buy. And if the XAVC-L HD codec is robust enough for HD broadcast standards (I think it is). But don't forget, soon this little camera will output 4K Raw! That should satisfy everyone's needs. I understand your disappointment in the FS5's lack of internal 4K60P, but nothing's going to change that. It is what it is. |
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#24 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
A little disappointment is a huge understatement when my clients pressure me into shooting 60p all the time.
The 5K price point being considered "budget" is what really peeves me off. With the DVX200, you'd expect something around that price range to have this by now. If the crop factor wasn't so bad, I would have gone with the DVX200. And they use UHS-I U3 cards, not even UHS-II. Sony is so focused on pushing XQD they don't give a single chance to SD cards for higher bitrates. My definition of Budget is the GH4 crowd, and the people getting the new crop of Ambarella powered MFT 4K cameras. (DJI's adopting the same tech for MFT 4K drone cameras) If I only want 30p, I get a GH4. But I'm beyond the point where my clients will be satisfied with 30p. I absolutely hate when it's so close to being perfect, but then there's that one deal breaker that makes you so frustrated, sad, and all the worst emotions all at the same time. |
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#25 | ||
Inner Circle
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Quote:
Fully agree with the rest of your post. Quote:
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#26 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
There can still be a 1'' sensor fixed lens camera with 4K 60p. I don't know why you all are fixated on the FS7 being a "required higher tier" in terms of hardware.
The 1'' replacement for the Z100 would be a blessing, if it's outfitted with a good fixed lens. Super35 and FF aren't the only sensor sizes, people. |
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#27 |
Major Player
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 400
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
I think in the case of Sony, limiting the FS5 to UHD/30p is done for the reason of product (or market) segmentation as much as certain hardware limitations. The company are known to do similar thing with their other lines of products. Good for them in this digital videography age that a good percentage of their customers appreciate, and can make better use of those slower frame rates. It's certainly easier, and cheaper, for them to make products that fit those needs.
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#28 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,053
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
Those that say HFR left a bad taste in their mouth likely are the same people in favor of slow frame rates. By your logic, the majority of the market favors "filmic" look rather than realistic. That is not the future. If this were the case, NHK would make 8K and keep 24 frames. They aren't. They're moving to 60 frames and 120 frames a second, going for realism rather than retaining a filmic look.
I will beat this to death, but my clients request 60p, and to say "No, I can't do 60p" devalues my services. |
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#29 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,220
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
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Ron Evans |
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#30 | |
Trustee
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Byron Bay, Australia
Posts: 1,155
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Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
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